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Unpopular Opinion Angel and Cordy

Discussion in 'Lovers Walk' started by GraceK, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    Ok, so not looking to start a ship war here, but I personally always found the "love" between Cordy and Angel completely forced. I happen to love Cordelia, so this is not an Buffy Vs Cordy opinion...Its more an, I feel personally insulted by the writers. Cordelia and Angel had a wonderful friendship...he genuinely respected and valued her, and she loved and was loyal to him and their mission. It was organic, a relationship that grew over time.

    He left Buffy because he couldnt offer her anything. A life, children, anything normal. They couldnt be physical, for obvious reasons..he loved her enough to let her go. So what, exactly was different with Cordelia? All the above still apply. Why couldnt a wonderful friendship and sibling love be enough? Why does every male-female relationship have to turn into something else? And, what also makes me mad is how Cordelia changed as soon as they started forcing this relationship on us. Suddenly shes blonder, saint like, motherly Cordelia who is Angels personal cheerleader. Seriously?? Dont get me wrong, in real life, co workers fall in love all the time...2 attractive people who spend so much time together can catch feelings. Just, in the context of this show, It doesnt make sense. Am I wrong?
     
  2. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    I don't think your opinion here is unpopular.

    It's odd...I can recall so much minor trivia from both Buffy and Angel (to the point that I can look at most Buffy avatars here and recognize the exact episode and even moment it came from, assuming it's from the TV series), but I can't even recall how these 2 became a couple!

    But tragic love stories are a thing in the Whedonverse. And it's such that whereas most people in our world will excuse being really stupid with something like "I was drunk," in their world it's, "I'm in love." Add passionate love, and hijinks automatically ensue (Spike described it so well in Lover's Walk about how love isn't brains, but blood screaming to work its will inside you to work its will, and essentially makes you at least somewhat insane to the point of hatred and self-destruction). Or maybe that's just love when too close to a hellmouth. :p
     
  3. The Bronze

    The Bronze GraceZ

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    Black Thorn
    No the only thing you have wrong is the thread title. Yours is a fairly popular and eminently sensible opinion. This bit in fact is almost exactly how I described the problem a while ago :D
    Welcome to the boards by the way!
     
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  4. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I totally agree with you - Angel/Cordy was just bad.

    :)
     
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  5. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Angel/Cordy was terrible and ruined Cordelia's character in the process.
     
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  6. Nix

    Nix Queen of Coffee!!

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    Sineya
    I dunno, I mean, who wouldn't fall for those dreamy looks ;)
     
  7. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I think that Angel and Cordy made a perfect "old married couple," in the fact that they shared a bond unlike anything that either of them ever shared with anyone else in the Buffyverse. Theirs was more a partnership than any sort of romantic relationship. If there actually were such things as soulmates, that's what they were. But they weren't, and never should have been, lovers.

    Besides, Angel was waiting for Nina.
     
  8. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Trying to remember how Cangel came about, I just watched Provider, Waiting in the Wings (I forgot how much I liked that one because of multiple elements, and can't believe I didn't recognize Summer Glau in it the first time I saw it), Couplet, and Loyalty.

    I remember now, I got the impression they were just trying to create tension through love triangles (Wes-Gun-Fred, Angel-Gru-Cordelia). At least the beginning here wasn't that bad, IMO, and watching it again knowing the events of season 4 this time, I could even see it as some magic of Jasmine at work (subtly working through the visions, perhaps even influencing Angel indirectly), trying to get them close (and was Cordelia required to give up meeting her love as part of the condition for Jasmine to infect her?). It's also worth noting that Angel did have a child that Cordelia had bonded with, so I don't see it as exactly the same thing as Buffy...especially as Cordelia was also Angel's link to the Powers That Be, which means they're stuck together anyway.

    At least in these episodes, Gunn annoyed me a bit more, especially in Loyalty when he tells Fred he never had a friend before and all that. He most definitely did have friends before AI, though he had lost them by then. He also had his sister, which should be a bigger issue for him, wondering if he'd ever have to stake Fred one day, and thus wary of getting close. I felt he was doing his past loved ones a disservice and manipulating Fred dishonestly, though it was probably just bad writing trying to force a story.

    Just for the record, I generally don't get into ships, not even canon ships (at least not in the Buffyverse where love is like crack cocaine to characters), and Cangel was even less interesting to me than most.

    I think I'll be watching the rest of the season now. I'm just debating whether to start from the beginning (though I've seen most of the episodes before these multiple times) or just keep going to the end from where I'm at.
     
  9. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I always hate talking about Cangel because I can rant for hours about them! I think after Epiphany or something, Cordelia/Angel was a badly written friendship and an even worse romance.

    First, let's look at their friendship which is one of the reasons why people may like Cangel or think Angel and Cordy were perfect for each other.

    The idea that Angel and Cordelia have this amazing friendship is grossly exaggerated. If you look at S1, you can see they were close but Angel spent a long time alone or helping the helpless whereas Cordy stayed at A.I being the secretary/vision girl/Wesley's assistant. Her relationship with Wes grew more as a result than her relationship with Angel. Cordelia is particularly good to Angel in Somnambulist and To Shanshu in L.A but she also didn't understand or help Angel in Sanctuary (unlike Wes who eventually took his side). S2 is proof that the Angel/Cordy friendship was still somewhat tentative and developing. Angel spent weeks sleeping all day, being grumpy (more so than usual) and occasionally rude but Cordy and Wes just shruged it off. Then, when Angel started to go off the rails because of Darla they didn't try hard enough to help him (and Wes was the one doing most of the talking). Sure, Cordy cared about Angel but she didn't put that much of a fight when he fired her, although he clearly did it so he could go down a dark path. Cordy didn't understand Angel. In S2, Lorne is the person who helps Angel the most: he doesn't let himself be intimidated by Angel, he knows when to help and when not to, he gets him to vent and analyse his actions, he gets him to help people and relate to them. The fact that Cordy and Wesley can't do this for Angel at all means that they weren't as close as people want to believe and that they didn't get Angel.

    What I hate about S3 is how the writers try to pretend that Angel and Cordy have this amazing friendship. All of a sudden Cordy gets Angel and can see that's something is wrong in Heartthrob. But what changed from S2 to S3? Nothing. After Epiphany, the gang had a few weeks together to mend their friendships but that's not enough time for Cordy and Angel to be closer than ever - it's just enough time for Cordy to start trusting Angel and get over what happened. Then, when Angel left because of Buffy's death, Cordy spent all that time (3 months) with Wes and Gunn being the team they were since Angel had fired them. Wes is clearly a better friend to Cordy and knows her better than Angel. However, in S3, Cordelia is all about Angel and doesn't care much for Wesley. This is bullshit and the opposite of what we had seen in the past. Cangel not only destroys Cordy's character, who does, in fact, become too motherly and understanding, but it also destroys Angel, who becomes dumb and goofier than Xander, the Cordy/Wes friendship and all of the other characters who believe Angel and Cordy should be together (more on that later).

    S4 is the season that truly highlights how much Angel didn't love or know Cordelia. For half of a season, Cordelia acts in ways that Cordelia would never act and Angel doesn't suspect of a thing. The fact that no one else does as well is unbelievable, but the rest of the gang wasn't aware that Cordy and Connor had slept together until Angelus revealed that and Lorne wasn't Cordelia's best friend. In Deep Down, Angel is all "I need Cordy" and he acts as if he's in love with her, but as soon as Cordy gets her memories back and starts being trouble, Angel just tells her to piss off. A good friend who saw Buffy after her stay in heaven would probably assume that Cordy was acting out or suffering, and would also know that Cordy would never in her right mind sleep with Connor. Yet, Angel apparently doesn't.

    In S5, Angel leaves Cordelia in the hospital (why doesn't he hire a full time nurse so she can stay in her own home?) and doesn't visit her or spend a lot of his time finding ways to help Cordelia - not like he did in Deep Down where Cordy was still perfect to him. After her death, he doesn't cry a lot over it or loose much sleep. I also would like to comment on You're Welcome which truly pisses me off from Cordy's pov. She spends the entire episode serving Angel and being the "great woman" behind the "great man". Well, screw that, Cordelia deserved better. All that's missing from that episode is Cordy giving Angel a blowjob. After all that happened in S4 and all the misunderstandings between them I don't buy their friendship in You're Welcome. The writers were trying to forget the past season since it was Cordy's last episode, but as a result it just felt insincere.

    As for the romance:

    In Carpe Noctem, Cordelia calls Angel a eunuch, Fred calls Angel the man who can have everything but love. Fred and Angel can't be together because of Angel so Fred's little crush needs to be nipped in the bud. In Fredless, Wes and Cordy make fun of Bangel and try to explain to Fred why Angel and Buffy can't be together. Well, the joke is on all of them and not on Bangel. Angel and Buffy broke up because they knew their relationship was dangerous and going nowhere. Up until that point, everyone knew that but all of a sudden Fred thinks Angel and Cordy are perfect for each other (what about Angel not being able to have love), Lorne agrees, everyone agrees. What happened? Did everyone become very dumb??? And what about the fact that Cordy and Angel were co-workers? If they truly fell in love they would have to resist the urge to have sex so eventually they would break up while still working together - awkward.
    Angel and Cordy don't truly have a romance but what they had was based on ignoring the truth. It was a dysfunctional romance. Cordy and Angel and everyone else ignored Angel's curse, how Buffy/Angel had ended, etc. so that the 'romance' could happen. Building a relationship based on delusion is not the way to go. And, Angel's interest in Cordy is very conditional. He becomes interested when Cordy is acting like the mom for Connor and he dreams of having the conventional family (as seen in Deep Down), but when Connor is kidnapped his interest in gone (even if he was obviously sad because of his son, that's not an excuse. Angel didn't stop loving Buffy because he was depressed in S3). Angel starts being interested in Cordy again in Tomorrow when everything is going his way. S4 follows this pattern. Also, in S4 Angel kisses Gwen and then remembers that Cordy exists (ouch) and in S5 starts dating Nina two episodes after Cordy dies, while waiting for Buffy to become cookie dough. Finally, in You're Welcome, Cordelia professes her love to Angel (as she had done in the past) and Angel, as usual, says nothing. Cordy/Angel is actually pretty similar to Buffy/Riley in a way.

    Cangel appeared out of the blue and was based on ignoring the truth and creating fake obstacles to build tension (Groo, Connor). I never believed Angel was in love with Cordy and even when I kind of did something happened to discredit that. On Cordy's part, she did say plenty of times that she was in love with Angel but this is weird OCC Cordy so it doesn't mean much. Personally, the thing that upsets me more about Cangel is the amazing friendship people rave about but that I don't see anywhere. Angel and Cordy were never true equals, least of all in how they felt for each other. They would never have been a good couple and they weren't the best pair of friends in the Buffyverse by any stretch of imagination. And Cordelia didn't know Angel better than anyone.
     
    The Bronze: Brutal but pretty accurate.
    WillowWhispers: This...all of this!
  10. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    @The Bronze

    Lol. Was I brutal? Thanks for reading all of that :p A lot of the badness in S4 and S5 isn't just Angel. All of the characters forget about Cordelia. It's the writers fault, but I can't really ignore 2 full seasons of the show because Joss was pissed off and fired Charisma. I do however believe that Angel is out of character in most of S3 - more so than Cordy because her changes are irreparable, but Angel goes back to his normal self in S4. Plus, I can understand Angel wanting to be in love with Cordy (the possibility of having love, family and a purpose - everything he said he wanted in S1) but not Cordy's extreme lack of judgment.
     
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  11. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    I think @Carrie Hopewell was spot on. You also brought up a bunch of things that I hadnt really thought of before
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2016 ---
    Also, I have to say that one of the points you bring up has always bugged me as well. Wes and Cordy actually have a history that goes back to season 3 of Buffy, and as you said, they were very close in season 2 of Angel...the fact that she can just completely throw him over and not even visit him in the hospital when he had his throat slashed made no sense. Its like she became Angels champion and everyone else didnt matter. She didnt even try to understand where Wesley was coming from or even talked to him. Shes away on vacation with Groo when shit hits the fan and she had no inkling at all with her new demon visions that everything was falling apart? Lame.
     
    Carrie Hopewell: Thanks! :)
  12. The Bronze

    The Bronze GraceZ

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    Black Thorn
    Well I guess I give a bit more weight to their friendship. I think it's a friendship forged in battle and that maybe makes it a bit stronger than just what we see on screen. He's saved her life a number of times, she's suffering with the visions for his mission. When Wes first arrives and they all eat together at the end of the episode, I picture that kind of thing happening more than we're shown so it's easier to accept a deeper friendship.

    I don't think it's shown particularly well after a certain point and can't stand the way Cordelia pretty much rejects everyone else for Angel, that's not what we're shown before then.
     
  13. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    I didn't mean to downgrade their relationship per se, just show that they're are not the perfect BFFs. Cordelia and Angel have a bond that's created more out of companionship than out of understanding of each other, and I think people confuse the two. Particularly in Cordy's case, she's not experienced enough to understand Angel's complexity, she doesn't know Angelus because she's heard of him more than she's seen him (Eternity is nothing) and she doesn't understand Angel's hero complex (the one Buffy has too) up until S3. Cordelia, Wesley and Angel have a great family dynamic in S1 that I also appreciate, but they're still in the early stages of their friendship, as S2 proves. Cordelia seems to get attached more easily than Angel, so the bond is a bit one sided. That is to say, the way I see Angel, he's lived a very long life without anyone and relying on people isn't something he does easily. People are expendable to a certain extent, not because Angel doesn't care for them but because he doesn't know how to be a friend, not like Wes and Cordy do. It's easy to see that he's much more open with everyone, more caring, after S2. The end of S2 is when Angel realizes how valuable his friends are, how much he missed them and cared for them. That's one of the reasons why S3 has a strong family vibe. And Angel and Cordy do share a lot in S3 and understand each other much better than before. However, because of the changes to Cordelia and Angel's personalities, I have a hard time taking it very seriously. I consider S3 to be wildly OOC and illogical.

    I do agree with the second part of that sentence, but I have a lot of evidence to question how wonderful their friendship is. It was wonderful in S1, fell apart in S2, was wonderful in half of S3 - in part due to OOCness, was terrible in S4. I don't believe the Buffyverse has wonderful friendships. At one point or another, the wonderfulness ends.
    I also think that Angel and Cordelia's friendship is supposed to be magical. I find it organic in S1, but don't like how the writers sort of brush S2 off in order to make way for S3. I appreciate the S1/S2 dynamic and how Angel proved his loyalty after Epiphany though. They also ignore the previous seasons in S5. The writers just don't seem to want Cordy and Angel upset with each other, arguing or questioning their friendship even when they have plenty of reasons to. That's why I personally like and respect Angel and Wesley's friendship more. It's very imperfect but both characters maintained their independence, it changed over time, adapted to the character's changes, challenged the characters, put to test their loyalties, was developed over a longer period of time, etc. Angel and Wesley end up developing a more intimate friendship because Cordelia and Angel's was stalled in S4 and the new person Wesley becomes understands Angel (and vice versa).

    And I do believe that Wesley understood Cordelia better than Angel (he pretty much says so in some S2 episode). I also believe that Wesley and Cordelia's relationship had more time to grow than Angel and Cordelia's (whenever Angel was sleeping, brooding or helping the helpless, in S2, in the summer between S2 and S3), but people usually give more weight to Angel and Cordy's which is pretty much only true in S3 when Cordy forgets about Wesley.

    I do adore a lot of Angel and Cordy's friendship but not at the expense of her individuality (S3, You're Welcome). I guess I just want to show people how flawed and often inorganic the friendship actually is, since I believe that friendship gets more praise than it deserves sometimes. However, feel free to love their friendship. It certainly makes the Angelverse a better place :)
     
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  14. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    What's the story with that? I know Charisma got pregnant hence why we got the Jasmine storyline because her pregnancy had to be written into the script, but surely she couldn't be fired because of her pregnancy otherwise she'd have a case for unfair dismissal?
     
  15. Carrie Hopewell

    Carrie Hopewell Little girl lost in the woods

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    Sineya
    There's a video of Charisma explaining that. Supposedly, when CC got pregnant she messed up Joss's story and he was pissed off. Like a brat, he wrote her a really bad storyline - which made Charisma really uncomfortable - and wrote her out of the show. I don't know if he fired her, but he put her in a coma and Charisma wasn't expecting to be in S5. Then, he brought Charisma back for You're Welcome (not his first choice) and Charisma said she'd do it if only she weren't killed off. They accepted that, Charisma signs a contract and they tell her she has to die... Also, she found out about not being in S5 through the press. Here:

     
  16. The Bronze

    The Bronze GraceZ

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    Black Thorn
    Charisma got pregnant and didn't tell Joss until the last minute. She was unable to perform the role she'd signed up to and Joss had to rewrite swathes of the story in very little time. Charisma was still paid in full for the length of her contract, she was just unhappy with the direction of her character after the rewrite. No one was fired and if anyone would have had a case to be considered it would have been Joss against Charisma.
     
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  17. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

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    Having watched to the end of s3 again, I had more comments.

    One, Cordelia's changes make sense given how she was becoming someone more connected to the Powers, taking part more in the visions, and those visions also gave her empathy. Assuming her mind was changing as much as her body (and even humans are often changed profoundly by the kinds of quests and trials of such an intense nature, hopefully for the better), then of course she'd become less clueless, and even more maternal in how she acted. At that point she was also as separated from the rest of society as the rest of demon society, more so than even Buffy. (And the idea of Buffy ever having a normal life is absurd anyway, they were kidding themselves, Slayers fight until they die, and even if they run from their destiny it seems to seeks them out.)

    That said...on a second viewing of that last episode, where Cordelia speaks to herself to "confirm" she's in love really could be Jasmine or her forces messing with Cordelia's mind. Jasmine has a direct link there after all, and if a telepath can cause Cordelia to erupt in boils by hacking her link to the Powers, and a demon can send her into screaming madness (from season 1), then surely Jasmine can nudge her as she did (even taking on Cordelia's own form since Cordelia seemed confused by the whole thing), just being much more subtle and gradual about it because she needed Angel driven to make sure he brought Cordelia back and then restored her memory (thus releasing Jasmine). In that view, it was a diabolically brilliant plan to manipulate Angel into doing what Jasmine wanted, and thus it wasn't genuine Cangel, but rather a superhuman head game by Jasmine. (Btw, I saw Cordelia telling Connor to "let it go, baby" being about identical to what Jasmine said to him later in season 4.)

    And it also served as "the last test." Those prophecies and conditions are important if you want it to work right.


    The first time I watched it I got annoyed with the Groo for being jealous as I wouldn't have thought him so insecure as to be jealous, at least until the end when it's shown to be a correct feeling on his part, when it turned out to be more of that One True Pairing crap that I think screws up this world a lot as it's a belief that alienates more than it nurtures love and wholeness and thus a damnable philosophy that never should've become the mainstream belief that it is, but that's beside the point.

    Thing is, what Cordelia was saying about "not wanting to be alone" was ridiculous to me given her close friends, as was the writers acting as if your heart can't break for unless you feel passionate love for them (reminds me of that crap so many men and women magazines give that if someone acknowledges your existence in a positive way then they're obviously have romantic interest in you, such advice to others having caused me quite a few hassles in my life, and people say I'm too cynical when they believe people will only be nice to you if they want something from you and I don't think people are that pathetic--at least not all of them). To me, the "Cangel" could've been entirely platonic, and I consider it misguided to say that only that kind of love can be meaningful (and by extension, that you can only connect with one person that way in your life, with the possible exception of your kids, and then only the kids with that one person).

    Frankly, Cordelia struck me as more romantically attracted to Angel in season 1 Buffy than in season 3 Angel, and in my headcannon the only reason she pursued a romantic relationship with Angel in the last episode was because of the schemes of Jasmine (who had other agents in the world) that messed with her head, and probably Angel's as well.
     
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  18. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    Ill never get over how Cordelia treated Wesley...it really bugs me. Her "love" for Angel suddenly made her forget a dear friend? Cordy and Wes got so close in season 2 when Angel fired them..not to mention their previous history on BtvS. It makes no sense that she would abandon him or not even bother trying to understand his actions. No, she has to be completely on Angels side cause "love". So insulting.
     
  19. Scooby Corps

    Scooby Corps Fly! Be free, little bird, you defy category!

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    I like Angel and Cordy's dynamic on BtVS and AtS S01 and S02 until Angel buys clothes to appease her... and succeeds (and I can't decide who comes off more shallow in this). From there on it's meh, occasional ridiculous or just infuriating. Whether it's Cordy slutshaming rape-victims to defend woobie Angel (even though *Angel* should know best), Cordy's sole focus on Angel the only person worth a damn, Angel's obnoxious jealousy of Connor to the point of throwing both out to the streets in the middle of an apocalypse, Angel not dwelling in the rape implications of Adult!Cordy sleeping with his minor son, the writers declaring Cordy as the Specialest of Awesomeness worth of becoming a higher being (I think Xander, Buffy, Willow, heck, *all* characters on Team Good, who know Cordy, would righteously change from aggravation to confusion to laughing fits if they knew about that), Angel dumping Cordy in a W&H hospital without consulting a second opinion and pretty much forgetting about her (or dwelling in Spuffy jealousy instead of telling Buffy/Xander/Willow of what happened with their Highschool/childhood companion, or not asking Willow for a magical diagnosis/cure to Cordy's mystical coma in End of Days), Angel holding Cordy up as his love and salvation but being easy to drop Cordy like a hot potato as soon as she displeases him, Cordy's whole "Oh Angel... Aaaangel" attitude (Angelus nailed it), Cordy adjusting her whole life to focus on Angel, Angel, Angel only and disregarding other aspects of her private life, her future, and her other friendships, especially with Wesley. And so on...

    Nope, Cordy and Angel as kyrumption mates is not my favorite thing and it ruins big chunks of AtS and a lot of credibility/likeability for both characters. Cangel is twisted, dysfunctional and ugly which isn't necessarily bad from a storytelling POV but the show frequently tries to code it as sweet and romantic which is... blech.
     
  20. Guy

    Guy Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I actually really loved that moment, it was hilarious... BUT I agree that the show shouldn't have acted like that immediately erased all problems. Season 2 spent a lot of time building the tension and resentment between Angel and Cordy, and the writers shouldn't have thrown it away for the sake of a gag (no matter how funny that gag was, LOL).

    My memory must be broken, I don't remember that. When did that happen?

    I agree with many of these complaints... But I still cry like a baby whenever I watch 'You're Welcome'. :(
    And there are many moments in which the Cangel romance works in season 3, too. At least as an "unrequited love" situation, with Angel pining after Cordelia while she's got him deep, deep in the friend zone (she'd probably call it the "eunuch zone", LOL).
     
    Afterthebattle likes this.