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Unpopular opinions

Tranquillity

That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Messages
2,417
Location
Australia
i don't mind Dawn. She's really only really unlikable in Older and Far Away.
I'm kinda glad that Xander and Anya don't get married - Not ready, too young.
Selfless is an underrated gem.
I find The Girl in Question hilarious.
 
IndianaSolo221
IndianaSolo221
I'm reading through all of these, and I have to agree with your opinion on Selfless. I rewatched it recently, and I had forgotten what a great episode it is...totally underrated.

darkspook

Potential
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
127
Age
36
I found Willow annoying at times. Forget the episode in season 3 but she is getting giddy and panicking about leaving school for lunch... it’s like just walk across the road.
 
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Messages
53
Age
47
I loved Cordy upto Angel S2, but felt her character was ruined in S3 not S4. I don't mind the concept of Angel and Cordy - 2 lonely, slightly damaged people coming together to find comfort, but dont think it was written very well. Even worse was the whole Saint Cordy thing. And the scene of her ascending in Tomorrow is so embarrassing I have to look away

I preferred Spike with Dru over Buffy

I don't blame Giles for leaving Buffy in s6. He was an unmarried man with no kids living in a foreign country. He had already given up 5 years for Buffy, was coming upto 50 years old and had only recently gone back home. He also felt Buffy was becoming too dependent on him

Much as I love Buffy I think she has to take some of the responsibility for what happened in Empty Places. The group didnt handle it well but they did have the right to confront her. She had made some bad decisions in S7 and even when they questioned it, she was still insisting on her original plan which would have just got more people killed. Admittedly Dawn had no need to say what she did, but I think Buffy might have chosen to walk out that night anyway if she had been replaced as leader (at least in the short run)

Where the Wild Things Are is nowhere near as bad as its reputation. The central idea of what happens to Buffy/Riley is terrible, but there are quite a few really nice scenes in it
 
Faded90
Faded90
Completely agree re Cordy
burrunjor
burrunjor
I think pretty much everyone agrees with you about Cordy. That's not unpopular LOL.

Priceless

Scooby
Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
8,044
Location
UK
Where the Wild Things Are is nowhere near as bad as its reputation. The central idea of what happens to Buffy/Riley is terrible, but there are quite a few really nice scenes in it
This I completely agree with. This episode gets so much hate, but there are some great moments.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
9,008
Age
30
Kennedy should've been eaten by Gnarl, or at the very least get a few nibbles taken out of her before the group saves her, at which point Kennedy drops the arrogant self-centred attitude and isn't such an entitled bitch.

I don't mind the concept of Angel and Cordy - 2 lonely, slightly damaged people coming together to find comfort, but dont think it was written very well.
I generally agree, however Cordy's Sunnydale history kind of puts this into a no go zone for me. She was there for the whole Angelus saga, she knows that Buffy gave Angel a moment of perfect happiness. Either Cordy willingly runs the risk of Angelus coming out to play again or she has to accept that she will never make Angel as happy as his ex did. Sunnydale Cordy would never accept being second best to anyone. At best, Cordy's struggles in LA before joining Angel investigations dented her confidence to the point that she accepts that Angel will never love her as much as he loves/loved Buffy and she will never measure up.

I preferred Spike with Dru over Buffy
100% absolutely! Sprusilla is the far superior ship plus Spike was much happier with Dru over the course of their 100 year relationship than he ever was with Buffy. Dru accepted Spike as he was, Spike had to essentially self-harm by getting a soul in order to be seen as acceptable by Buffy.

I don't blame Giles for leaving Buffy in s6. He was an unmarried man with no kids living in a foreign country. He had already given up 5 years for Buffy, was coming upto 50 years old and had only recently gone back home. He also felt Buffy was becoming too dependent on him
Giles reasoning for leaving was rubbish and completely contradicts his actions in Season 5. In Season 5, Giles was thinking of leaving because it seemed like Buffy didn't need him anymore but he chose to stay anyway. In Season 6, Buffy actually needs him and he chooses to bugger off. It was a dick move from Giles. He completely ignored the fact Buffy had a traumatic experience being resurrected and was still dealing with that. Just because she needed extra support at that time doesn't mean she's become too dependent on him and will be for the rest of her life.

Whilst AH wanted to leave and so Giles had to leave, the writers could've at least come up with a better reason.

Much as I love Buffy I think she has to take some of the responsibility for what happened in Empty Places. The group didnt handle it well but they did have the right to confront her. She had made some bad decisions in S7 and even when they questioned it, she was still insisting on her original plan which would have just got more people killed. Admittedly Dawn had no need to say what she did, but I think Buffy might have chosen to walk out that night anyway if she had been replaced as leader (at least in the short run)
The problem with this scene is two things:

1. The mutiny is led by Kennedy and Wood. Wood is doing it for revenge because Buffy won't let him kill Spike, whilst Kennedy is doing it as a powerplay as she openly admits to Faith that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge. Even in the immediate aftermath of Buffy's exit when everyone is trying to talk at once, you can hear Kennedy suggesting that those that have been there the longest (aka her) should get a bigger say. Also when it looks like Willow is going to defend Buffy, Kennedy jumps down her throat before she's even said anything.

2. Ultimately Buffy is proven right; and for no reason whatsoever, the first and Caleb helpfully dig out the scythe for her. It's surprising they didn't have it gift wrapped. It would've been a lot more legitimate if Buffy and co had to dig out the scythe themselves but because of the time it was taking, it made them sitting ducks. The potentials would want to leave the scythe whereas Buffy still wants it.

Where the Wild Things Are is nowhere near as bad as its reputation. The central idea of what happens to Buffy/Riley is terrible, but there are quite a few really nice scenes in it
Agreed. basically the episode's highpoints are the scenes that don't involve Buffy and Riley having sex. They outsexed a frat house.
 
Last Watcher
Last Watcher
Pretty much agree with all of this!

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
504
Age
63
As much as I despise Empty Places my biggest issue is that not one single person says to Robin ‘why are you even here?’ 😂 Like I can pretty much see everyone’s justification for what they’re saying (although I’m always Team Buffy on this episode) but the fact Buffy doesn’t just say ‘mate I’m asking nothing of you’ when he says she’s asking too much of them always bothers me 😂
 
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Messages
53
Age
47
I generally agree, however Cordy's Sunnydale history kind of puts this into a no go zone for me. She was there for the whole Angelus saga, she knows that Buffy gave Angel a moment of perfect happiness. Either Cordy willingly runs the risk of Angelus coming out to play again or she has to accept that she will never make Angel as happy as his ex did. Sunnydale Cordy would never accept being second best to anyone. At best, Cordy's struggles in LA before joining Angel investigations dented her confidence to the point that she accepts that Angel will never love her as much as he loves/loved Buffy and she will never measure up.
I get where you are coming from. I just think Cordy has changed a lot. In Buffy she was always really confident or at least put up a confident front and to begin with was incredibly selfish. By Angel S3 she had endured so much that I think it had not only affected her confidence but also given her a more mature view of the world. She may not have the same type of passionate affair he had with Buffy, but over time they could have had a deeper relationship based on friendship and respect. Buffy's 2 main relationships were based initially on passion and lust so I would like to have seen another relationship based more on friendship (if it had been better written that is :) )

As for Angelus reappearing my problem is with the way the curse is written. Buffy/Angel/Angelus was such a great arc in Buffy S2 but after that the whole perfect happiness thing was only dragged out as a plot device and inconsistently at that. It was used as a metaphor for sex in Buffy S2 but the curse didn't specifically mention sex as Angel himself pointed out at least once. So why didn't he lose his soul after Connor was born when that's the happiest I ever saw him?

Giles reasoning for leaving was rubbish and completely contradicts his actions in Season 5. In Season 5, Giles was thinking of leaving because it seemed like Buffy didn't need him anymore but he chose to stay anyway. In Season 6, Buffy actually needs him and he chooses to bugger off. It was a dick move from Giles. He completely ignored the fact Buffy had a traumatic experience being resurrected and was still dealing with that. Just because she needed extra support at that time doesn't mean she's become too dependent on him and will be for the rest of her life.

Whilst AH wanted to leave and so Giles had to leave, the writers could've at least come up with a better reason.
I agree it wasn't written very well which seemed to happen more often in the later seasons I would say.

The main point I was trying to make was that because the show is so heavily focused on Buffy (more so than it is on Angel in his show imo) it is natural to see her side and not always consider the other person. Giles had recently returned home after dedicating the last few years to Buffy. If he ever wanted the normal life stuff of wife and maybe even kids then he was running out of time pretty sharpish.

But I agree it was probably out of character for him to do it. The writers could have come up with something better

2. Ultimately Buffy is proven right; and for no reason whatsoever, the first and Caleb helpfully dig out the scythe for her. It's surprising they didn't have it gift wrapped. It would've been a lot more legitimate if Buffy and co had to dig out the scythe themselves but because of the time it was taking, it made them sitting ducks. The potentials would want to leave the scythe whereas Buffy still wants it.
I agree that was written poorly. Regardless of whether what happened to Buffy was fair or not, once the writers decided to do it they could at least have ran with it for a while rather than have it be resolved almost immediately. I know it was late in the season but the writers must have known for a while they were going to do it so they could have done so earlier on.

And yes she was proved right for no reason whatsoever by the sudden appearance of an all powerful scythe. Although in some ways she wasn't completely proved right as the plan that got rejected was for a group of them to confront Caleb which could have led to more of them getting killed. She was able to succeed the second time because she went in on her own and used her speed to defeat him without having to worry about everybody else getting hurt
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
As much as I despise Empty Places my biggest issue is that not one single person says to Robin ‘why are you even here?’ 😂 Like I can pretty much see everyone’s justification for what they’re saying (although I’m always Team Buffy on this episode) but the fact Buffy doesn’t just say ‘mate I’m asking nothing of you’ when he says she’s asking too much of them always bothers me 😂
Here's my unpopular opinion I can see most people's points of view - even kinda Rona's - although expecting to be completely shielded from danger is utterly unrealistic is the most charitable spin I can put on it, but Anya is just being a vindictive bitch. Lady the day you have stab Xander through the heart and send him to hell or chose between saving yourself or your innocent little sister .....THEN you get to tell someone they're lucky for having unearned power.
 

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
504
Age
63
Here's my unpopular opinion I can see most people's points of view - even kinda Rona's - although expecting to be completely shielded from danger is utterly unrealistic is the most charitable spin I can put on it, but Anya is just being a vindictive bitch. Lady the day you have stab Xander through the heart and send him to hell or chose between saving yourself or your innocent little sister .....THEN you get to tell someone they're lucky for having unearned power.
Anya’s speech was garbage and made no sense when only a few episodes prior she’d correctly summed up being a slayer as meaning a ‘short brutal life’

I feel like the whole point of the speech was ultimately for Buffy to prove it wrong. She wasn’t simply leader because she was ‘lucky’ to be a slayer but because she was Buffy and while flawed she WAS their best option as leader. The problem was I feel like they wrote the speech but then who do you give it to? Faith and the potentials (all being hunted because they’re so ‘lucky’ to be in the slayer line) would be hypocrites, Giles entire career has been about slayers,Willow/Xander? Hardly, Robin isn’t going to regard the calling that killed his Mother and left him an orphan as ‘lucky’ which left Anya to say it, except it made no sense because of her earlier statement and because she’s literally watched Buffy Swan dive to her death at 20 because it meant either that, the world ends or her sister dies (her sister who she was only given because she was so ‘lucky’ to be a slayer). Honestly the speech can just get in the bin.

Also when she says ‘nobody said you deserve these things’ erm in fairness they kind of did. Clue is in the title ‘chosen one’ obviously we don’t know the selection criteria but I doubt it’s out of a hat, the slayer higher powers DID tell her she deserved them, that’s why she got them
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,475
Age
49
Anya’s speech was garbage and made no sense when only a few episodes prior she’d correctly summed up being a slayer as meaning a ‘short brutal life’

I feel like the whole point of the speech was ultimately for Buffy to prove it wrong. She wasn’t simply leader because she was ‘lucky’ to be a slayer but because she was Buffy and while flawed she WAS their best option as leader. The problem was I feel like they wrote the speech but then who do you give it to? Faith and the potentials (all being hunted because they’re so ‘lucky’ to be in the slayer line) would be hypocrites, Giles entire career has been about slayers,Willow/Xander? Hardly, Robin isn’t going to regard the calling that killed his Mother and left him an orphan as ‘lucky’ which left Anya to say it, except it made no sense because of her earlier statement and because she’s literally watched Buffy Swan dive to her death at 20 because it meant either that, the world ends or her sister dies (her sister who she was only given because she was so ‘lucky’ to be a slayer). Honestly the speech can just get in the bin.

Also when she says ‘nobody said you deserve these things’ erm in fairness they kind of did. Clue is in the title ‘chosen one’ obviously we don’t know the selection criteria but I doubt it’s out of a hat, the slayer higher powers DID tell her she deserved them, that’s why she got them
I don't think it's out of character for Anya though - I think she's been a bitch to Buffy all season and is just using any arguement she can to bash her because she can't get over her trying to kill her. Own your effing shit Anya!
 

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
504
Age
63
I don't think it's out of character for Anya though - I think she's been a bitch to Buffy all season and is just using any arguement she can to bash her because she can't get over her trying to kill her. Own your effing shit Anya!
Yeah Buffy giving her shelter and keeping her safe from D’Hoffryns demons for the rest of the season mean nothing apparently
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
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Age
49
Yeah Buffy giving her shelter and keeping her safe from D’Hoffryns demons for the rest of the season mean nothing apparently
Nor that she committed the acts that put her on Buffy's (s)hit list of her own free will.
 

darkspook

Potential
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
127
Age
36
Anya’s speech was garbage and made no sense when only a few episodes prior she’d correctly summed up being a slayer as meaning a ‘short brutal life’

I feel like the whole point of the speech was ultimately for Buffy to prove it wrong. She wasn’t simply leader because she was ‘lucky’ to be a slayer but because she was Buffy and while flawed she WAS their best option as leader. The problem was I feel like they wrote the speech but then who do you give it to? Faith and the potentials (all being hunted because they’re so ‘lucky’ to be in the slayer line) would be hypocrites, Giles entire career has been about slayers,Willow/Xander? Hardly, Robin isn’t going to regard the calling that killed his Mother and left him an orphan as ‘lucky’ which left Anya to say it, except it made no sense because of her earlier statement and because she’s literally watched Buffy Swan dive to her death at 20 because it meant either that, the world ends or her sister dies (her sister who she was only given because she was so ‘lucky’ to be a slayer). Honestly the speech can just get in the bin.

Also when she says ‘nobody said you deserve these things’ erm in fairness they kind of did. Clue is in the title ‘chosen one’ obviously we don’t know the selection criteria but I doubt it’s out of a hat, the slayer higher powers DID tell her she deserved them, that’s why she got them
I honestly feel like that the whole scene was out of character for everyone. It was just written to isolate Buffy so Spike is the only one who can help her. While I feel that Buffy is making bad decisions and mistakes it just comes out of the blue to have all her closest friends attack her. Buffy herself as a character is written poorly as she simply cannot accept that what she is doing is wrong. Mrs 'I am the law' has really gone to her head.
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,675
Location
Manchester
Here's my unpopular opinion I can see most people's points of view - even kinda Rona's - although expecting to be completely shielded from danger is utterly unrealistic is the most charitable spin I can put on it, but Anya is just being a vindictive bitch. Lady the day you have stab Xander through the heart and send him to hell or chose between saving yourself or your innocent little sister .....THEN you get to tell someone they're lucky for having unearned power.
I get your point and I agree. Personally I have no issue with the fragmentation and multiple viewpoints of Empty Places (given the wider thematics of S7 it makes sense to me) but I think it's more complicated than Anya simply being vindictive and I can see her perspective (even if I - might -disagree with it).

Buffy's acts as you describe them are selfless: Anya is self-less. She's an "ex" everything: ex-proprietor; ex-"Mrs Xander Harris"; ex-vengeance demon; ex-D'Hoffryn's "daughter"; friend of the ex-Hallie. She can only define herself negatively - in terms of what she isn't. It's similar to the predicament Spike is in after SR. Clem even calls him "Mr Negative".

Even if Buffy was the worst slayer in the world, even if she went into temporary retirement as Nikki did, she'd still have her powers and, more importantly, she'd still have an identity to cling to...she'd always be The Slayer (she didn't escape it in Anne* (?)). Perhaps identity is why Nikki returned to slaying? Arguably, as a black woman and a mother you're a bit of a non-person in a society that's white and patriarchal (I dunno - I'm speculating - but it gives me food for thought about "the coat"). Ironically, Buffy's "selfless" acts give her a sense of self...and she can always fall back on being "the Law". She has a positive identity even if she feels negative about it.

In fact, Buffy herself says (to Holden in CWDP) "I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it." (Holden tells her she has an inferiority complex about feeling superior). So why are we calling Anya out for saying the same thing (rhetorical question) ? Before we do, I think we need to unpack what Buffy thinks:

"I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love. 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel?(sighs) this is awful?I feel like I'm better than them. Superior."

I honestly feel like that the whole scene was out of character for everyone.
I don't. I think we've gone beyond the realms of "character" (which can be static) and are knee deep in subject/subjectivity and process - becoming not being.

*The name Anya is a Russian variant of Anne. There's probably a reason for this.

@Priceless - Lol! You're welcome. As Willow says "everything connects" 😄
 
Last edited:
Priceless
Priceless
I'd never thought of Anya in this way, thanks.
Joined
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662
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And yes she was proved right for no reason whatsoever by the sudden appearance of an all powerful scythe.
This isn't technically true though. Their entire first attack on the vineyard is predicated on Caleb's message that he has something of hers. What he has is the scythe. It hasn't come out of no where when Buffy finds it in Touched - she's known something was there since Dirty Girls. The argument in Empty Places is whether or not they go back into the vineyard - Buffy says they should because that's where Caleb is defending so that is where the power is. Everyone else is too afraid to go in and falls for the false trail Caleb is laying - with the arsenal under the ground.

But Buffy has been the slayer for seven years - she knows what she's talking about. Caleb is at the vineyard because the important thing (whatever that might be) is at the vineyard. And she is proved right - because she is the one with the expertise. They rejected her expertise out of fear and feeling that she wasn't saying 'please' nicely enough and so they are proven wrong.

But if the scythe hadn't been there, they would never have gone into the vineyard in the first place - never mind a second time. And Caleb wouldn't have based himself at the vineyard. All that goes down because the scythe is there. The scythe is what the slayers are going in to get in Dirty Girls - they just don't know it's the scythe yet.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,316
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
But if the scythe hadn't been there, they would never have gone into the vineyard in the first place - never mind a second time. And Caleb wouldn't have based himself at the vineyard. All that goes down because the scythe is there. The scythe is what the slayers are going in to get in Dirty Girls - they just don't know it's the scythe yet.
Technically the scythe didn't have to be there though, Buffy and co went to the vineyard simply because Caleb was based there and he told Buffy 'I have something of yours'.
But Caleb could've based himself anywhere; the airport, the bus station, The Bronze, an ice cream factory, and Buffy still would've gone there because of Caleb's very simple trap.
The problem with the whole scenario is that Buffy and co had never been to the vineyard before, they were led there. So without Caleb to give them the location they may never have found the scythe.
Good thing that Caleb's an idiot I guess, 'cause it sure helped the plot.
 

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
504
Age
63
Can we agree that Caleb is the most stupid villain ever? Regardless of what we think of the mutiny. His ‘you’re never going to guess what I’ve got, hehe!’ ‘I’m going to dig it up and put it on display, even going to put some nice flames next to it for lighting. I’m going to push this barrel over for no reason whatsoever

Oh Caleb 🙈 he very much deserved the humiliation Buffy dealt him when she won the scythe by simply running around (and lots of cool flips of course)
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Even the First momentarily questioned the intelligence of his plan...and when even the First thinks your plan is dumb, it's dumb beyond belief.
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