I feel Caleb was a cool idea. The First evils right hand man is actually a human. Makes perfect sense, humans can choose to be evil, so an evil human is always going to be more special than a Vampire that kills because it is it's nature.Can we agree that Caleb is the most stupid villain ever? Regardless of what we think of the mutiny. His ‘you’re never going to guess what I’ve got, hehe!’ ‘I’m going to dig it up and put it on display, even going to put some nice flames next to it for lighting. I’m going to push this barrel over for no reason whatsoever
Oh Caleb 🙈 he very much deserved the humiliation Buffy dealt him when she won the scythe by simply running around (and lots of cool flips of course)
Caleb was definitely a great villain, I think mostly his giving away the plan is due to them meandering around with The First plot for most of S7 and realising they’d got to episode 18 and nothing had moved forward so they had to have Caleb doing a ‘you’re getting warmer!’ thing to hurry it along 😂I feel Caleb was a cool idea. The First evils right hand man is actually a human. Makes perfect sense, humans can choose to be evil, so an evil human is always going to be more special than a Vampire that kills because it is it's nature.
Added to that you have Nathan Fillion's charismatic and engaging performance and just the thrill of seeing the hero of Firefly as a monster. It's not surprising he is popular, even if most of his plan makes 0 sense.
I agree completely, particularly that Spuffy feels like a noose around the shows necks and more importantly around the characters necks. What happened to the show that spent the entirety of S3 showing that a vampire relationship would make Buffy deeply unhappy and how unfair Angel would be to keep her from a tiny bit of normality. Buffy acknowledging that actually yes that’s correct and it could never work. Now instead we have ‘this vampire is the only one who understands Buffy’ (he doesn’t. He gets her wrong almost every single time). Spike has to be woobified and stops being the fun character he has been, other than his stuff with Buffy he has almost no other part in the show in S6 and in S7 she has to be the one to prop him up because he has no relationship with any other charactersOkay mine have been stated elsewhere but what the hell, cool idea for a thread.
1/ Spuffy was mostly terrible.
There are some parts I like. James and Sarah have great chemistry, and it comes a to a reasonably satisfying conclusion in Chosen.
However I think it let down both Spike and Buffy as characters for the following reasons.
As I have said before S2-4 Spike was a brilliant, original take on a good guy Vampire. One who isn't a nice guy, but is practical. IE he's not so evil that he'll destroy the world on a whim. He actually is smart enough to realise he has a pretty good position the way it is now. In the modern world he's a wolf among the sheep. If the world is sucked into hell, he could be quite low down on the Demon pecking order!
He also enjoys the shallow vices of the human world. Demons probably wouldn't make as good music, tv or sports as we do LOL. That coupled with his chronic backstabbing (Angelus, Drusilla, Buffy, that Vamp in the Initiative, the Scoobies, etc He stabbed ALL of them in the back at various points and always managed to walk away LOL) James cocky performance the fact that he was actually a bit smarter than the group in some ways despite everyone thinking he was just a thug. (Like exploiting their weaknesses, spotting how ridiculous Angel and Buffy's friendship was.) And the fact he got the best lines, made him my favourite by far.
He really was like Crowley from Supernatural, but about ten years earlier. Sadly by having him fall in love with Buffy. They made him into just another cliched romantic Vampire or monster character. They also made his entire character about Buffy, and worst of all turned him into a mini Angel. Pretty much every Spike storyline in season 7 is an inferior retread of Angel's story arcs from seasons 1-3 of Buffy.
I don't buy into the crap of there was nothing you could do with wacky Vampire neighbour Spike after season 4. Supernatural managed it with Crowley for years. Joss IMO was just being lay and thought "let's just redo Angel again." Also by making Spike a big mopey Angel type, they took away everything we liked about Spike.
I don't want to see Spike moping on a cross, Spike saying how much he loves Buffy. I want to watch him make fun of people and be a slimy backstabber LOL.
I can easily see Spike of season 4 not siding with Glory as her plan would threaten the entire multiverse. Hey he already helped Buffy without a Chip in season 2. Why couldn't it have been that again. You could have still fleshed him out, had him become friends with Dawn or Willow or whatever, but to have him become just a romantic character was lazy.
Buffy meanwhile I think it was arguably even worse for. In order to have her sleep with a guy who had been tormenting her and her loved ones for years, they had to have her have a breakdown for an entire year.
As someone who has suffered chronic mental health problems, I am of course not saying you should never explore that. Still in this case it stopped Buffy from being the empowering, feisty Vampire killer we all knew and loved.
Also they had to have other characters act completely out of character too like kicking Buffy out to make Spuffy be more special. Really Spuffy was a noose around the shows neck in the later years.
2/ The mythology of the show is just as important.
People act as though the monsters were just filler and the relationships and soap opera were the most important parts of the show. WRONG!
It was both. Yes it was great the way Buffy featured a more down to earth super hero, and merged the paranormal with everyday problems, but the paranormal still had to be interesting!
Buffy came up with some inspired takes on old monsters, and it always put so much effort in the first 5 seasons at least into making the monsters of the week interesting.
IMO it lost its way when it came to focus too much on the soap opera elements in season 6.
3/ Anya was the worst character.
I've already done a thread about this so I won't repeat. Though Emma Caulfield is a great actress and was very funny and likable, the character of Anya made no sense, brought nothing to the show really and was just a boring stand in for Cordelia.
4/ Season 4 is great and Adam was a good villain
I think season 4 was the perfect transitional season. You couldn't jump from season 3 to the darkness of 5. You needed a fun, light hearted year. Season 4 is the shows comedy at its best.
Also I think with this in mind Adam was the perfect villain for Buffy to face that year. He lacked the personal connection to Buffy that Faith, Angelus, even Glory via Dawn had. He was if you will a professional enemy, IE it was all business. At the same time unlike the Master Buffy was more experienced and so didn't feel quite as hopeless. He didn't tear her life apart like those villains, but at the same time he was a legit threat and beating him did still feel like an accomplishment for the Buffster.
I think season 4 sets up season 5 perfectly. I remember Kate Nash saying that season 5 was the best because it starts out so well for Buffy but then everything in her life goes to shit by the end, it's just so powerful and unexpected. I agree, but you couldn't do that without season 4.
5/ Buffy and Angel both had the perfect endings
Well okay I didn't like it that it wasn't Buffy who saved the day in the last story. (She sort of did but it was still Spike that did most of the leg work.)
Still the message behind both was true to both series. Angel is about fighting because it's the right thing to do. Even if there's no reward, no pay off, even if you don't win, you still fight. What better way to show that than Angel and his crew going to fight a battle they seemingly can't win?
Buffy meanwhile was about this woman, breaking free of a patriarchal organisations control. (The Watchers council.) Even the Buffy movie got that. She does things differently to the previous Slayers. She thinks for herself and doesn't just play by their rules, so she is finally able to kill Lothos. Similarly in the Buffy finale, Buffy and Willow, defy the Shadow Men's rules and as a result they not only beat the first but make the world a better place for everyone.
6/ Fray is better than all the Buffy comics.
I don't know if this is unpopuar, as the comics are polarizing, and Fray was well recieved. However I think Fray is obscure, so what the hell I'm going to say Fray is better than all the comics and should be the way the Buffyverse continues rather than a remake.
I think you have just won the prize for most unpopular opinion on the unpopular opinions threadWhedon will come through the current crisis mostly unscathed (though with a little damage to his credibility).
I never hated Dawn like some people did, but for me she was always just there hanging around. I think it would have been better if she was only in S5Dawn was not that great of a character and it's telling that her popularity only increased in Season 7 when she was basically pushed to the side lines.
I really like S5 and I like Glory and her minions, but it does surprise me how great some people say the S5 arc is.Season 5 is not the best Season of Buffy, is pretty weak with the seasonal arc of Glory, and is only given more credit than it is due due to some standout episodes such as Fool For Love and The Body.
I think the Gina Carano stuff has taken precedence and is more relevant to people on account of how politically motivated the bullying she received was. Also the fact that is is an actual current event. Nobody cares to hear Fisher having a tantrum and playing the race card because he didn't get his own way with Whedon, nor do they particularly care about CC waiting 17+ years to stick the boot in whilst other Buffy cast members jump on the bandwagon. Whedon's behaviour wasn't great but Hollywood has its own set of rules, and whilst there is a discussion to be had on how actors (which includes white male ones too) are treated, Whedon's behaviour does not affect the normal person.I think you have just won the prize for most unpopular opinion on the unpopular opinions thread
But I do agree that in a year or 2 when emotions have cooled he will start to work again, especially if The Nevers is a success
I dont have a problem with that - I dont think we can demand that he never works again when most of the allegations are from 20 years ago
And hopefully he will have learnt something from all this
I completely agree she had no purpose beyond Season 5 and it would've been better if she had been the one to jump so the character could be written out, however that would make her seem like even more of a plot device than she already is.I never hated Dawn like some people did, but for me she was always just there hanging around. I think it would have been better if she was only in S5
Glory and her minions are fun characters but I think they would've worked better as mini-arc villains rather than a seasonal one. Also they kind of went too "big" with Glory. As a hell god, she'd seem like a final season kind of villain, instead they followed her with a trio of nerds which seems like a step down. The trio aren't bad villains but they look weak in comparison to a hell god.I really like S5 and I like Glory and her minions, but it does surprise me how great some people say the S5 arc is.
We see how powerful Glory is early on and then the arc goes into a holding pattern until about the last 4 episodes of the season. Of those The Gift is a great episode but Eps 19 - 21 are good rather than great
Agreed. Also I think the Robin/Spike situation would've been more interesting if Spike didn't have his soul. The soul gives Spike a get out of jail free card plus it makes all of Buffy's decisions regarding Spike justified. However you can see how Giles would question Buffy's decision making if she chose to remove Spike's chip despite him being soulless (essentially giving him back his Season 2 potential threat level). Buffy would remove the chip out of mercy because it was slowly and painfully killing Spike (and she is a compassionate person who doesn't want to cause unnecessary suffering) but he is now without some kind of muzzle. The First could've really used that to divide the group instead of doing what it did.I don't buy into the crap of there was nothing you could do with wacky Vampire neighbour Spike after season 4. Supernatural managed it with Crowley for years. Joss IMO was just being lay and thought "let's just redo Angel again." Also by making Spike a big mopey Angel type, they took away everything we liked about Spike.
Agreed, and like you said Spuffy made both Buffy and Spike absolutely miserable.I agree completely, particularly that Spuffy feels like a noose around the shows necks and more importantly around the characters necks.
Obviously Sarah’s comments have always been repeated a lot re S6 but I feel like people forget that James seemed to hate it just as much. He’s been vocal about hating all of the nude scenes he was having to do and how much weight he lost. He’s clearly uncomfortable about how romanticised the relationship was every time he’s asked about it. It’s clear from the dailies that he and Sarah got along well but it’s hardly surprising they each preferred Bangel and Sprusilla and not having to play constant miseryAgreed, and like you said Spuffy made both Buffy and Spike absolutely miserable.