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Vampires and other beings power levels

Bbwvamplover

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I think in the buffy verse the monsters are so inconsistent when it comes to power and strength..willow and xander dusting vamps like it aint nothing..on angel vamps seem to have super speed (remember hawk eye killing the police in the police station like the flash) vamps taking gun shots but hey let me pick up this vase and hit it across the head to knock it out dont get me started on the oracles the demon killed the oracles with ease but angel beat the demon...am I missing some the oracles are way more powerful then angel able to rewind back time. The beast actually made sense he was so op it took his own flesh to kill him. Glory took down by the hammer still doesnt make sense I know she was weaken by the sphere but the so called troll God was able to hit xander and not kill instantly. Jasmine being punched in the head by Connor doesn't make sense when Jasmine was like God like. The way Hamilton punched through the guard at wfh is the way most of the demons and vamps fight should go with the humans after all the wise men did have to make a slayer to fight they battles for them fight for humanity cause they where took weak
 

thrasherpix

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I have head canon for at least some of that. For example, Connor and Jasmine shared a link of blood and that made her immune to Jasmine's powers, including her vulnerability, an Achilles heel so to speak (if true, the Cordelia, were she to awake from her coma, could slap Jasmine and it would actually hurt...but it would have to be flesh). Besides, Jasmine was still shot by a gun and that hurt her, so why not Connor's fist anyway?

As for the troll, I say the troll was playing with him, like a cat with a mouse...though the truth is more likely the rest: plot convenience.


I found the roleplaying game mechanic funny on how the "Scoobies" can heal like a Slayer using "drama points." Technically this was more, "you weren't as hurt as the dice said you were" though other options were available, even escaping certain death (in other words, it would be more accurate to call it "plot armor"). Having experience with RPGs (though I never played this one) and learning how to invent whatever justification for a lot of nonsensical rule mechanics (that is, they make no sense in the story itself), I came up with the idea that as these mortals willingly chose to fight evil, and mainly did so out of love and friendship and to protect rather than revenge, that the Powers that Be "snuck them a little help." Like how Cordelia as a Higher Being was able to make a slot machine declare Angel a winner in an Angel episode, they'd use their powers (more subtle) to help protect them.

For example, in one scene Willow is cornered by Oz the werewolf, but all of a sudden he sniffs the air and leaves Willow alone to run away. Talk about contrived writing (though I love the ep myself). In game terms, the player playing Willow would've spent "drama points/plot armor" to save Willow. But explained in the universe, I'd say a Higher Being affected Oz's wolf brain to find some other scent all too tantalizing to resist, thus saving Willow so she can continue to fight evil.

Though that said, I think the Higher Powers aren't anywhere as good as they claim and are more like subtle, passive aggressive demons themselves (but then what's a little cheating among demons, like sneaking a little help to favored servants even if the servants don't realize they're pawns in the game?), but that's another topic. Still, just as demons can be good, perhaps some (youngish?) Higher Powers look down with admiration on Willow and Xander and sneak them a little help for their heroism (as mortals are far from perfect and oh so vulnerable, after all). But to show themselves directly would both cheapen the courage and selflessness of the heroes, and perhaps get some of the other Higher Beings to come down hard on these silent helpers.



That aside, I'm one of the few who love Gingerbread, but it actually ticks me off how easy Buffy's mother takes down Buffy with chloroform, even with the element of surprise (though it would've been diabolically brilliant if Joyce told Buffy to calm down, at least drink her tea, which had Rohypnal--date rape drug--in it with Buffy mumbling as she asks her mother what has she done, the last thing she sees are "Hansel & Gretel" as we got).

Passion of the Nerd is doing a counter, IIRC, on how many times Giles gets knocked out.

And as effective as tasers are, everyone should be carrying one there, and when Wesley drops his shotgun that a demon is sneering at only to pull out a taser, that demon runs. :p
 

Btvs fan

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It really does depend on the episode with the Vampire abilities as it changes episode to episode
 

thrasherpix

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I wonder if Spike's chip would've let him get away with say poisoning drinks? He's not directly harming them with violence, in fact showing some restraint. ('Course I can't help but see the chips as techno-magic anyway to be able to tell if someone he hits is a human or demon when even Spike himself doesn't know.)

I'm sure he could hire the Order of Taraka again (unless he's been blacklisted) if he could get the money (on another note, if they care about nothing but getting their bounty, then what DID they spend their bounty on, and just what benefit did the Order bring to them, assuming they weren't just enslaved somehow?).

But then maybe Spike doesn't do these things because he knows he's more useful to them alive than dead, and it keeps down the things that can and will kill Spike down to manageable levels for him. (Though I really shouldn't try to make such sense out of this, the show typically suffers for it.)
 

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
After the back breaking effort Buffy exerted in Showtime to take down a Turok-Han, by the time we get to Choices, the newly-minted slayers are knocking them off with ease. Was the one in Showtime a champion among them or this this just bad writing?

The Powers That Be are introduced as powers for good but I don't see it - they have their share of ambiguity just like Angel when he kills Drogyn..
 

Honoria Dedlock

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That aside, I'm one of the few who love Gingerbread, but it actually ticks me off how easy Buffy's mother takes down Buffy with chloroform, even with the element of surprise (though it would've been diabolically brilliant if Joyce told Buffy to calm down, at least drink her tea, which had Rohypnal--date rape drug--in it with Buffy mumbling as she asks her mother what has she done, the last thing she sees are "Hansel & Gretel" as we got).
I have a weird theory about Joyce...seeing as she took out Spike once, and knocked out a slayer, I'm willing to bet some of the Slayer 'potential' is genetic, and Joyce herself may have been a potential who simply missed her window of opportunity.

Also Justine and her gang on Angel dusted a ridiculous amount of vamps. I started calling her "Justine the Vampire Slayer" towards the end of Angel season three...could be she was a potential. She came pretty close to killing Angel, and he's one of the big league vamps.

As for the vampires themselves, they're power levels are all over the place, but you could say the same of humans. Drusilla having various powers such as divination and hypnosis, for example, along with Dracula and The Master. Although Drusilla seems to have carried some of those powers over from her human form.

Then there's insane power houses like Glory, but all that power doesn't seem to make much difference due to her mental instability and lack of intelligence. She always claimed she could have snuffed out the slayer in a second, so why didn't she? Either she was lying or not very bright.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I'm sure he could hire the Order of Taraka again (unless he's been blacklisted) if he could get the money (on another note, if they care about nothing but getting their bounty, then what DID they spend their bounty on, and just what benefit did the Order bring to them, assuming they weren't just enslaved somehow?).
As far as I know, the hit on Buffy was called off after Spike and Dru's presumed death. As the Order of Taraka didn't manage to kill Buffy, Spike wouldn't have needed to pay them. Bounty is normally collected AFTER the job is done and the Order of Taraka did not get the job done.


After the back breaking effort Buffy exerted in Showtime to take down a Turok-Han, by the time we get to Choices, the newly-minted slayers are knocking them off with ease. Was the one in Showtime a champion among them or this this just bad writing?
Whedon admitted this was a cock up and he basically wanted the big battle scene so screw continuity.

I have a weird theory about Joyce...seeing as she took out Spike once, and knocked out a slayer, I'm willing to bet some of the Slayer 'potential' is genetic, and Joyce herself may have been a potential who simply missed her window of opportunity.
Interesting theory on Joyce but at the same time it would make Joyce look even worse for her reaction to Buffy revealing she's the slayer since Joyce could've so easily have been in her shoes. Also since the chance of being chosen went from "any girl" to "only a select few", Joyce might not have been special enough to be a potential.

Also Joyce, hardly "took out" Spike. She knocked him to the floor, which is what happens when something is hit with enough force, but he was still conscious and could've quite easily gotten to his feet and fought back. He chose not to because the tide of battle had turned against him so he did a tactical retreat.


Back on topic, vampires are also shown to be susceptible to electricity. it won't kill them but it will incapacitate them temporarily as seen with the Initiative guns and the cattle prod.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Guardian Angels: It seems to be part of the basic worldview of pre-modern people that benevolent spirits protect mortals on a personal level, or at least seek to oppose malicious spirits. A similar concept is already at work in the Buffyverse, so the Scoobies getting an assist, well, technically, they are already getting an assist every time they find refuge in a private residence, or hold aloft a crucifix, or practice magic.

But frankly, if only a line like this made it into "Becoming."
ANGEL: "So, you are like ... Angels?
WHISTLER: "Angels? No not really, but sure, Angels are close enough. But remember, those fat babies with wings, well, a little more terrifying in real life."

But as for "Power Levels?" There's really no constistancy. Giles in Season 1 & 2 runs from Vampires which clearly outrank him, despite being part of a multi generational crusade against them. Angel Season 4, Gunn & Fred are killing them in Melee combat. Fred! Doc is able to ragdoll Spike, but Buffy can one-hits him despite Spike being at par with Buffy in most fights. Angel can jump tall buildings in LA, can barely walk really fast in Sunnydale. It's not Dragon Ball, but it is still a show about fighting.
 

white avenger

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I think in the buffy verse the monsters are so inconsistent when it comes to power and strength
But that's pretty much logical when you consider that each individual vampire or demon is as unique as every individual human is. Levels of strength, speed, etc should vary. None of the normal humans on either show ever manage to beat any of the super baddies like Glory, Adam. or Angelus. It takes the Whedonverse top fighters like Buffy, Faith, Spike, or Angel to take them out, and even they often either cheat or have additional help.

I wonder if Spike's chip would've let him get away with say poisoning drinks?
I've always wondered the same thing about him simply dodging or blocking a punch. He should have at least been able to avoid being hit or grabbed as long as he didn't actually fight back'

After the back breaking effort Buffy exerted in Showtime to take down a Turok-Han, by the time we get to Choices, the newly-minted slayers are knocking them off with ease.
It's been pretty much accepted that the first ubervamp was a champion of its species, the equivalent of a Slayer as compared to a normal human. That's just fan wank, of course, never actually mentioned anywhere in canon.
 

Btvs fan

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After the back breaking effort Buffy exerted in Showtime to take down a Turok-Han, by the time we get to Choices, the newly-minted slayers are knocking them off with ease. Was the one in Showtime a champion among them or this this just bad writing?

The Powers That Be are introduced as powers for good but I don't see it - they have their share of ambiguity just like Angel when he kills Drogyn..
On the Chosen DVD commentary Whedon does bring it up and say shh don't tell people that.
 

TriBel

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Was the one in Showtime a champion among them or this this just bad writing?
On the Chosen DVD commentary Whedon does bring it up and say shh don't tell people that.
Even allowing for artistic licence/dramatic effect (as explained by JW), I don't think the Chosen battle is beyond the realms of possibility. The Slayers - are running on adrenaline - they're psyched up. There's no indication the Turok-Han are - it's all in a day's work for them.

The Slayers are fighting as a team - as witnessed by the way they pass the scythe. They're also fighting for a cause and each other. They have a shared narrative. It was one of the first things addressed in Lessons (also written by Whedon): this is who we fight: the other, the alien (the Bringers in Istanbul, the vampires in Sunnydale cemetery). This is why we fight (the country - England*; the family and home in Sunnydale). We don't just fight for our life: we fight for our way of life (even if that way of life is shopping for shoes. It's specifically mentioned before and after the battle). In the case of the Slayers, the whole is more than the sum of its parts. They're fighting for the future and the past. The Turok-Han are the opposite. The Turok-Han are more like automatons...they're simply fighting machines. One against one it's likely they'd beat a slayer but they don't have a sense of community or collective action. In fact, there's a theory that the reason Homo Sapiens replaced Neanderthals was Homo Sapiens were more linguistically advanced. They could share narratives and this gave them the edge.

*The music in the England/Westbury segment is called "In Westbury Field" - I read this as a direct reference to the WW1 poets (In Flanders Field and others). The first potential dies because she's on her own - doors are slammed in her face. The community doesn't support her. The manifest spirits blame Buffy for their death because she was absorbed in Angel.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Re: Turok Han; Well, the first Turok Han had fattened itself on much blood. The guys in the cave probably hadn't fed since the ice age, and while being in a Demon Dimension will keep them alive, or whatever the Hellmouth/ Seal of Danthazar is supposed to be, they do weaken over time.
 

Ethan Reigns

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@TriBel The reason the slayers are fighting is very specific - if the population of the demonic exceeds that of humanity, then the First Evil will take corporeal form and be able to enter every man, woman and child in the world and subvert it to the uses of evil. This is a very Zoroastrian concept of the continuous battle between good and evil. They are not fighting for the past or future or their way of life in the sense of American culture.
 

TriBel

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They are not fighting for the past or future or their way of life in the sense of American culture.
Of course they're fighting for their future...they're not going to have one if they lose and die. If they lose and live - their way of life will be radically different (though I don't think they're overly concerned about shoes...that's just a running joke).
 

Bbwvamplover

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As far as I know, the hit on Buffy was called off after Spike and Dru's presumed death. As the Order of Taraka didn't manage to kill Buffy, Spike wouldn't have needed to pay them. Bounty is normally collected AFTER the job is done and the Order of Taraka did not get the job done.




Whedon admitted this was a cock up and he basically wanted the big battle scene so screw continuity.



Interesting theory on Joyce but at the same time it would make Joyce look even worse for her reaction to Buffy revealing she's the slayer since Joyce could've so easily have been in her shoes. Also since the chance of being chosen went from "any girl" to "only a select few", Joyce might not have been special enough to be a potential.

Also Joyce, hardly "took out" Spike. She knocked him to the floor, which is what happens when something is hit with enough force, but he was still conscious and could've quite easily gotten to his feet and fought back. He chose not to because the tide of battle had turned against him so he did a tactical retreat.


Back on topic, vampires are also shown to be susceptible to electricity. it won't kill them but it will incapacitate them temporarily as seen with the Initiative guns and the cattle prod.
If you ask me spike wasn't retreating he simply didn't kill her cause he admire a woman sticking up for her child he had a close bond with his mom so he spared her..he could have pulled buffys mom but even evil spike had somewhat morals
 

DeadlyDuo

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If you ask me spike wasn't retreating he simply didn't kill her cause he admire a woman sticking up for her child he had a close bond with his mom so he spared her..he could have pulled buffys mom but even evil spike had somewhat morals
Spike wasn't expecting "a slayer with family and friends". In Halloween, he was trying to study Buffy in order to figure out a way to kill her which means that Joyce and the scoobies added a complication that the other slayers didn't have. A tactical retreat is the smartest thing to do as it enables him to live to fight another day until he can gather more information. For all he knew, it wasn't just Joyce he'd be dealing with but a whole posse coming to Buffy's aid.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Spike is an ambush predator, a strong, unexpected, rear attack is usually enough to confuse even the largest cat, especially one who fears death. In "Killed by Death," the same happens to Angelus.
 
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