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Warren is likeable

AlphaFoxtrot

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Re: Willow; It’s far worse, Willow was torturing Warren for a confession. She got one, and in fact, he repented. You don’t kill a penitent man, if he truly regrets what he has done, he will turn himself over to the police, confess to the murders of Tara McClay and Katrina Silber, and then throw himself on the mercy of the court. That’s what a good guy wants to see a villain do. She then killed him. And we forgive her… Xander made her cry? Because the Coven and Giles extracted some heavy penance? There’s really no way Willow should have come out as likable afterwards, I get she was fueled by rage, despair and black magic, but she went farther than Hamlet and Achilles, and doesn’t really ever pay for it. I kind of wish the Amy episode in Season 7 had that as the secret twist, Amy isn’t doing this out of vengeance or jealously, she got over that, it’s out of fear and mercy. Willow is now an clear and present danger to all of mankind, and while the bounty on her is quite substantial, Amy considers suicide a more merciful death or undeath than what the Conclave has in store for her. And that’s the Willow pilot.
 
Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
Yeah I find it quite a mindf*ck in the show that the person holding Willow to account for murder is somehow presented as the baddie of the episode.

sweetiepie

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While his impulse to like Katrina for herself, rather than an idealized version of a woman he had made for himself, was a good thing, getting revenge on someone for dumping you, especially in the way he got it, is not a symptom of love, but criminally abusive narcissism.

We can look at the better days of Warren two ways, either:
1) the actor and quite possibly the writers didn't know at that point what they were going to do with Warren in season 6, so he was played as a lovable geek,
or
2) everyone knew exactly what they were going to do and purposefully made him likable to mess with us in season 6.

If it's option 1, then this isn't the same Warren that we see in season 6 and you really can't link the motives of the two without it feeling clumsy and confusing. Early Warren was meant to be played as genuinely loving Katrina, but later Warren clearly was meant to be played as though he loved himself alone.

If we accept option 2, though, then Warren becomes way more complex, and we cannot say he ever did love Katrina, but rather simply found a new toy to play with. The words are intentionally meant to sound convincing to us, but Warren's impulses remain selfish. (I'm to understand Jeffrey Dahmer was quite convincing and charming in person.) Revealing Warren's true motives takes time, until we finally see the true Warren at the end of season 6. Once we realize this was the real Warren all along, it must put a different complexion on his earlier scenes.

Which of these two scenarios you choose to accept is entirely up to you.
That's great! I think he did love Katrina in season 5. Not the kind of selfless love. However he loved her in his own ways. In season 6 it was more of a dangerous attraction.

Re: Willow; It’s far worse, Willow was torturing Warren for a confession. She got one, and in fact, he repented. You don’t kill a penitent man, if he truly regrets what he has done, he will turn himself over to the police, confess to the murders of Tara McClay and Katrina Silber, and then throw himself on the mercy of the court. That’s what a good guy wants to see a villain do. She then killed him. And we forgive her… Xander made her cry? Because the Coven and Giles extracted some heavy penance? There’s really no way Willow should have come out as likable afterwards, I get she was fueled by rage, despair and black magic, but she went farther than Hamlet and Achilles, and doesn’t really ever pay for it. I kind of wish the Amy episode in Season 7 had that as the secret twist, Amy isn’t doing this out of vengeance or jealously, she got over that, it’s out of fear and mercy. Willow is now an clear and present danger to all of mankind, and while the bounty on her is quite substantial, Amy considers suicide a more merciful death or undeath than what the Conclave has in store for her. And that’s the Willow pilot.
Honestly Warren was remorseless. He seemed regretful because he was terrified of Willow. What makes you believe that Amy was no longer jealous of Willow?


Willow murdered a human and was sent to vacation. Just wow.
 

DeadlyDuo

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He loved Katrina regardless his jerk attitude.
It's possible the growl thing with April is actually a limitation of the AI at the time. Dru does a little growl sometimes but obviously she's a real woman so there's nuance to her growl (it's the little dog noise she makes- that's the only way to describe it) and she tends to do it when she's being seductive. AI doesn't have that nuance so whilst April may have growl in her programming, it could come under both aggression and seduction.

We don't know a lot about Warren's background when it comes to relationships. There could be a legitimate reason for why he thinks crying is emotional blackmail (some people do play the emotional blackmail card eg "if you ever leave me, I'll kill myself"). Warren created a woman who was always supportive of him, always thought he was right, always sympathetic, always did what he wanted, etc, He got bored because it wasn't real. There were probably times where Warren had a bad idea and instead of having someone tell him it was a bad idea, he had April telling him it was a great idea because that's what she was programmed to do. Katrina was the opposite of April and Warren enjoyed that aspect. He liked being challenged, he and Katrina probably argued and then made up afterwards, it was a real relationship that had ups and downs and he was engaged with it because it wasn't predictable.

I don't think Warren went to the bar premeditating making Katrina the target of the mind control. He saw her then just saw the opportunity to get back his girlfriend. Obviously the whole idea of mind controlling any woman is a bad one (and it seems neither Jonathan or Andrew considered the ramifications of their actions until Katrina spelt it out for them) but I don't think Warren deliberately set out to make Katrina the target (otherwise why bother having an ear piece and camera so that Jonathan and Andrew can see and hear what's going on and give their opinion. As soon as he spots Katrina, he ditches the earpiece.)

Also I think it's worth mentioning (and this isn't blaming Katrina in any way) but right before Warren smashes the bottle in Katrina's head, she says to him "let's see how you enjoy being raped" in regards to him going to prison which is why he hit her to stop her. Warren didn't intend on killing Katrina hence why the trio started panicking over it, and they discussed other ways of covering it up before they decided to frame Buffy.
 

sweetiepie

Townie
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Jan 15, 2021
Messages
88
It's possible the growl thing with April is actually a limitation of the AI at the time. Dru does a little growl sometimes but obviously she's a real woman so there's nuance to her growl (it's the little dog noise she makes- that's the only way to describe it) and she tends to do it when she's being seductive. AI doesn't have that nuance so whilst April may have growl in her programming, it could come under both aggression and seduction.

We don't know a lot about Warren's background when it comes to relationships. There could be a legitimate reason for why he thinks crying is emotional blackmail (some people do play the emotional blackmail card eg "if you ever leave me, I'll kill myself"). Warren created a woman who was always supportive of him, always thought he was right, always sympathetic, always did what he wanted, etc, He got bored because it wasn't real. There were probably times where Warren had a bad idea and instead of having someone tell him it was a bad idea, he had April telling him it was a great idea because that's what she was programmed to do. Katrina was the opposite of April and Warren enjoyed that aspect. He liked being challenged, he and Katrina probably argued and then made up afterwards, it was a real relationship that had ups and downs and he was engaged with it because it wasn't predictable.

I don't think Warren went to the bar premeditating making Katrina the target of the mind control. He saw her then just saw the opportunity to get back his girlfriend. Obviously the whole idea of mind controlling any woman is a bad one (and it seems neither Jonathan or Andrew considered the ramifications of their actions until Katrina spelt it out for them) but I don't think Warren deliberately set out to make Katrina the target (otherwise why bother having an ear piece and camera so that Jonathan and Andrew can see and hear what's going on and give their opinion. As soon as he spots Katrina, he ditches the earpiece.)

Also I think it's worth mentioning (and this isn't blaming Katrina in any way) but right before Warren smashes the bottle in Katrina's head, she says to him "let's see how you enjoy being raped" in regards to him going to prison which is why he hit her to stop her. Warren didn't intend on killing Katrina hence why the trio started panicking over it, and they discussed other ways of covering it up before they decided to frame Buffy.
I understand Katrina. She was a victim. Absolutely Warren didn't plan to use Katrina as a sex slave. It was all a coincidence. He didn't intend to kill her. He wanted to knocked her out so that The Trio could use the dampener on her a second time.
It's possible the growl thing with April is actually a limitation of the AI at the time. Dru does a little growl sometimes but obviously she's a real woman so there's nuance to her growl (it's the little dog noise she makes- that's the only way to describe it) and she tends to do it when she's being seductive. AI doesn't have that nuance so whilst April may have growl in her programming, it could come under both aggression and seduction.

We don't know a lot about Warren's background when it comes to relationships. There could be a legitimate reason for why he thinks crying is emotional blackmail (some people do play the emotional blackmail card eg "if you ever leave me, I'll kill myself"). Warren created a woman who was always supportive of him, always thought he was right, always sympathetic, always did what he wanted, etc, He got bored because it wasn't real. There were probably times where Warren had a bad idea and instead of having someone tell him it was a bad idea, he had April telling him it was a great idea because that's what she was programmed to do. Katrina was the opposite of April and Warren enjoyed that aspect. He liked being challenged, he and Katrina probably argued and then made up afterwards, it was a real relationship that had ups and downs and he was engaged with it because it wasn't predictable.

I don't think Warren went to the bar premeditating making Katrina the target of the mind control. He saw her then just saw the opportunity to get back his girlfriend. Obviously the whole idea of mind controlling any woman is a bad one (and it seems neither Jonathan or Andrew considered the ramifications of their actions until Katrina spelt it out for them) but I don't think Warren deliberately set out to make Katrina the target (otherwise why bother having an ear piece and camera so that Jonathan and Andrew can see and hear what's going on and give their opinion. As soon as he spots Katrina, he ditches the earpiece.)

Also I think it's worth mentioning (and this isn't blaming Katrina in any way) but right before Warren smashes the bottle in Katrina's head, she says to him "let's see how you enjoy being raped" in regards to him going to prison which is why he hit her to stop her. Warren didn't intend on killing Katrina hence why the trio started panicking over it, and they discussed other ways of covering it up before they decided to frame Buffy.
It's possible the growl thing with April is actually a limitation of the AI at the time. Dru does a little growl sometimes but obviously she's a real woman so there's nuance to her growl (it's the little dog noise she makes- that's the only way to describe it) and she tends to do it when she's being seductive. AI doesn't have that nuance so whilst April may have growl in her programming, it could come under both aggression and seduction.

We don't know a lot about Warren's background when it comes to relationships. There could be a legitimate reason for why he thinks crying is emotional blackmail (some people do play the emotional blackmail card eg "if you ever leave me, I'll kill myself"). Warren created a woman who was always supportive of him, always thought he was right, always sympathetic, always did what he wanted, etc, He got bored because it wasn't real. There were probably times where Warren had a bad idea and instead of having someone tell him it was a bad idea, he had April telling him it was a great idea because that's what she was programmed to do. Katrina was the opposite of April and Warren enjoyed that aspect. He liked being challenged, he and Katrina probably argued and then made up afterwards, it was a real relationship that had ups and downs and he was engaged with it because it wasn't predictable.

I don't think Warren went to the bar premeditating making Katrina the target of the mind control. He saw her then just saw the opportunity to get back his girlfriend. Obviously the whole idea of mind controlling any woman is a bad one (and it seems neither Jonathan or Andrew considered the ramifications of their actions until Katrina spelt it out for them) but I don't think Warren deliberately set out to make Katrina the target (otherwise why bother having an ear piece and camera so that Jonathan and Andrew can see and hear what's going on and give their opinion. As soon as he spots Katrina, he ditches the earpiece.)

Also I think it's worth mentioning (and this isn't blaming Katrina in any way) but right before Warren smashes the bottle in Katrina's head, she says to him "let's see how you enjoy being raped" in regards to him going to prison which is why he hit her to stop her. Warren didn't intend on killing Katrina hence why the trio started panicking over it, and they discussed other ways of covering it up before they decided to frame Buffy.
Maybe Andrew and Jonathan but Warren seemed pretty calm.
 

TriBel

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Then something happened. I met Katrina in my engineering seminar. She was funny and cool. Really unpredictable. She was always giving me a hard time. She build these little model monorails that run with magnets... Anyways I fell in love with Katrina".
Then something happened. I met Warren in my engineering seminar. He was funny and cool. Really unpredictable. He was always giving me a hard time. He build these little model monorails that run with magnets... Anyways I fell in love with Warren".

Changed it for you 😄 . I like the character but I suspect Warren doesn't love anyone except Warren. Warren doesn't have friends...he has sycophants. He's a creator. He doesn't want to be loved...he wants to be worshiped (Get down on your knees has a double meaning). I also suspect that's the reason he's flayed... underneath he's flesh and blood like the rest of us.

I wonder whether he "loves" Katrina because he sees himself in her - he sees her as he wants to be seen by others (which is actually a component of love and brings me close to Spuffy). Katrina is Warren but with metaphorical stones rather than glass ones?
 
S
sweetiepie
Ha ha ha😂

I love your first paragraph. I think his feelings towards Katrina were genuine. He loved her because she made him feel alive, she challenged him. Falling in love happens for different reasons.

thetopher

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Sineya
I never think of Warren as a good villain, more a shallow, cartoonish 'threat of the week' who for some reason nobody took that seriously until he goes and shoots up suburbia. His actions elevate his importance (he killed Tara and almost killed Buffy) but there's nothing else there, he's a shadow.

I wonder if that's the point; Warren's action shadow those of another season 6 character and helps highlight their worse character traits.
 

sweetiepie

Townie
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
88
Then something happened. I met Warren in my engineering seminar. He was funny and cool. Really unpredictable. He was always giving me a hard time. He build these little model monorails that run with magnets... Anyways I fell in love with Warren".

Changed it for you 😄 . I like the character but I suspect Warren doesn't love anyone except Warren. Warren doesn't have friends...he has sycophants. He's a creator. He doesn't want to be loved...he wants to be worshiped (Get down on your knees has a double meaning). I also suspect that's the reason he's flayed... underneath he's flesh and blood like the rest of us.

I wonder whether he "loves" Katrina because he sees himself in her - he sees her as he wants to be seen by others (which is actually a component of love and brings me close to Spuffy). Katrina is Warren but with metaphorical stones rather than glass ones?
I thought he was saying get down on your knees for the oral sex. I didn't realize it had a double meaning.

The Trio were friends prior to Dead Things.

I never think of Warren as a good villain, more a shallow, cartoonish 'threat of the week' who for some reason nobody took that seriously until he goes and shoots up suburbia. His actions elevate his importance (he killed Tara and almost killed Buffy) but there's nothing else there, he's a shadow.

I wonder if that's the point; Warren's action shadow those of another season 6 character and helps highlight their worse character traits.
Fans claim that he represents villains that are real. He represents toxic masculinity according to them.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Fans claim that he represents villains that are real.
I'm sure Warren is a caricature of real people and represents some aspects of toxic masculinity, but fails to be anything much beyond that as a character. I think that's a massive failing in someone who is supposed to be the 'most human' of the Big Bads. He's not a vampire or hell god or evil Mayor yet he has less 'human' moments than any of them.
What moments on the show are there to humanize Warren? What dialogue does he have that lets the audience see his perspective and gives him depth? I'm drawing a blank.
 

Faded90

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I'm sure Warren is a caricature of real people and represents some aspects of toxic masculinity, but fails to be anything much beyond that as a character. I think that's a massive failing in someone who is supposed to be the 'most human' of the Big Bads. He's not a vampire or hell god or evil Mayor yet he has less 'human' moments than any of them.
What moments on the show are there to humanize Warren? What dialogue does he have that lets the audience see his perspective and gives him depth? I'm drawing a blank.
I think S6 for all it liked to see itself as incredibly complex struggled to create compelling and complex villains. Even Dark Willow, in theory she should be the most complex villain of the lot because it’s Willow! Yet she’s so cartoonish she might as well be twirling a moustache and stroking a cat. Two villains in a handful of episodes referring to Buffy as ‘superbitch!’ Wow I bet that one really stung her

Plus that Buffy v Warren fight in Seeing Red might be one of the worst choreographed fights in the series
 

TriBel

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I wonder if that's the point; Warren's action shadow those of another season 6 character and helps highlight their worse character traits.
Yes...the parallels are obvious but I'm not sure they highlight as much as give perspective. The difference for me is...Willow appeals to a Goddess because she's lost her love object; early S6 Spike draws on the discourse of Courtly Love which actually elevates his love object (he doesn't knock her off the pedestal he's put her on. She jumps and falls of her own volition), whereas Warren is his own love object. There are parallels and significant differences. Whether or not they all create the world in their own image is something I'd have to think about.
I think S6 for all it liked to see itself as incredibly complex struggled to create compelling and complex villains.
Because as others have pointed out, S6 is drawing on Arendt's "the banality of evil". The people who ran the Death Camps weren't complex, compelling monsters...they were ordinary people "just doing their job and following orders". Eichmann was hiding in full sight not lurking in the dark.
 
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sweetiepie

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I'm sure Warren is a caricature of real people and represents some aspects of toxic masculinity, but fails to be anything much beyond that as a character. I think that's a massive failing in someone who is supposed to be the 'most human' of the Big Bads. He's not a vampire or hell god or evil Mayor yet he has less 'human' moments than any of them.
What moments on the show are there to humanize Warren? What dialogue does he have that lets the audience see his perspective and gives him depth? I'm drawing a blank.
Many moments such as the argument he was having with Andrew and Jonathan about who was the best James Bond. The writers had the same argument too and therefore took inspiration from them...

I think S6 for all it liked to see itself as incredibly complex struggled to create compelling and complex villains. Even Dark Willow, in theory she should be the most complex villain of the lot because it’s Willow! Yet she’s so cartoonish she might as well be twirling a moustache and stroking a cat. Two villains in a handful of episodes referring to Buffy as ‘superbitch!’ Wow I bet that one really stung her

Plus that Buffy v Warren fight in Seeing Red might be one of the worst choreographed fights in the series
Lmao!🤣

I love when Willow said "Get off me superbitch"

I like the fight between Warren and Buffy. Warren relied on brute force. It was not perfect but it was fun to watch.
 

TriBel

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What moments on the show are there to humanize Warren? What dialogue does he have that lets the audience see his perspective and gives him depth?
I'm not sure he can have depth. He lives in a culture where depth has no meaning because everything has been reduced to representation and image...where we feel more for a plastic figurine (things) than we do a human. Image, in the fullest sense possible is important - not just the detail in the van painting (the need to accurately represent a representation of a representation of something that doesn't exist. All hail the simulacrum) but also maintaining an image - which isn't a true reflection of self, wants and desires but is how we need to be seen. Witness...Xander in Life Serial who knows the truth but has a work image to maintain and so sacks his best friend Buffy. I've stopped short of drawing a parallel here but it exists.

The writing's on the wall from the moment they mention "The Social Construction of Reality" aka known as "The Cultural Turn" aka "The Linguistic Turn"...and poor Buffy doesn't understand any of it. Seasons 6/7 are full blown postmodernism. It wasn't that Buffy wasn't pomo before but it's turned away from playful pomo to a critical postmoderism. The writers aren't just reading Bond...they're also reading Baudrillard.

We have "cartoon villains" in Buffy because that's what real villains and heroes have become (or are in danger of becoming)...cartoons and characters on the screen.
 

thetopher

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Two villains in a handful of episodes referring to Buffy as ‘superbitch!’ Wow I bet that one really stung her
I often forget that Dark Willow and Buffy actually squared off in combat. To me Giles and Xander are the two who 'faced off' against the Big Bad Rosenberg.

Plus that Buffy v Warren fight in Seeing Red might be one of the worst choreographed fights in the series
I agree. I hated the fact that when Warren (and Dark Willow) got super strength they suddenly knew how to fight. Remember when fight choreography mean that characters actually had signature styles? Yeah, I miss those early years.

Yes...the parallels are obvious but I'm not sure they highlight as much as give perspective.
I'm thinking mostly how Willow treats Tara, how self-deluded she is at some points and how she handles her rage regarding being powerless.
Warren's toxic behavior highlights similar behavior in more sympathetic characters, yet he doesn't get the same sympathetic treatment or any of the excuses that they get.

whereas Warren is his own love object.
I know you've claimed this before but I disagree, Warren doesn't want to be worshiped per se, otherwise he would've been content with the April-bot. Then again S5 Warren seems deeper than S6 Warren.
Warren wants love but has no clue how to get it or what to do to maintain a healthy relationship, so he will simply force it on the object of his obsession.

Many moments such as the argument he was having with Andrew and Jonathan about who was the best James Bond.
I think that's comic trivia rather than character insight. I have no idea what liking Sean Connery has to do with Warren as a character. But I know that Spike loved Drusilla and it humanizes him, that the Mayor mourned his first wife as she cursed him for his youth and that Glory thought all humans were basically screwed up worthless ants.
 

Faded90

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I often forget that Dark Willow and Buffy actually squared off in combat. To me Giles and Xander are the two who 'faced off' against the Big Bad Rosenberg.



I agree. I hated the fact that when Warren (and Dark Willow) got super strength they suddenly knew how to fight. Remember when fight choreography mean that characters actually had signature styles? Yeah, I miss those early years.
yeah Willow suddenly being able to say a one word spell and being at least as strong, agile and as good a fighter as a highly trained and experienced slayer really bugged me, it feels like ‘ok so nothing means anything at all anymore’


The Buffy/Willow fight should be this hugely emotional fight and I just feel ‘empty’watching it. It’s not the first time we’ve had the friend v foe fight (thinking mostly of Angelus/Buffy and Buffy/Faith here) and bothof them fights (well multiple in both cases) you can feel the intensity of it and they bring the personality of the characters into it despite Sarah/Eliza/David not technically being in huge chunks of these fights. There’s no gravitas to it. I’m going off topic though as I could moan about the Dark Willow stuff for ages 😂
 
thetopher
thetopher
I feel the same; Buffy/Angelus and Buffy/Faith felt epic and intense. The DW/Buffy stuff was yawn-worthy.

sweetiepie

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I often forget that Dark Willow and Buffy actually squared off in combat. To me Giles and Xander are the two who 'faced off' against the Big Bad Rosenberg.



I agree. I hated the fact that when Warren (and Dark Willow) got super strength they suddenly knew how to fight. Remember when fight choreography mean that characters actually had signature styles? Yeah, I miss those early years.



I'm thinking mostly how Willow treats Tara, how self-deluded she is at some points and how she handles her rage regarding being powerless.
Warren's toxic behavior highlights similar behavior in more sympathetic characters, yet he doesn't get the same sympathetic treatment or any of the excuses that they get.



I know you've claimed this before but I disagree, Warren doesn't want to be worshiped per se, otherwise he would've been content with the April-bot. Then again S5 Warren seems deeper than S6 Warren.
Warren wants love but has no clue how to get it or what to do to maintain a healthy relationship, so he will simply force it on the object of his obsession.



I think that's comic trivia rather than character insight. I have no idea what liking Sean Connery has to do with Warren as a character. But I know that Spike loved Drusilla and it humanizes him, that the Mayor mourned his first wife as she cursed him for his youth and that Glory thought all humans were basically screwed up worthless ants.
Liking Sean Connery's James Bond means something about Warren. Now it doesn't mean that if you love Sean Connery's James, you're misogynistic or anything negative 😂

I read it somewhere that James Bond portrayed by Sean Connery smacked women, is a macho and is unafraid, everything Warren thought men should be. It was obvious that Warren would love this James Bond

I'm not sure he can have depth. He lives in a culture where depth has no meaning because everything has been reduced to representation and image...where we feel more for a plastic figurine (things) than we do a human. Image, in the fullest sense possible is important - not just the detail in the van painting (the need to accurately represent a representation of a representation of something that doesn't exist. All hail the simulacrum) but also maintaining an image - which isn't a true reflection of self, wants and desires but is how we need to be seen. Witness...Xander in Life Serial who knows the truth but has a work image to maintain and so sacks his best friend Buffy. I've stopped short of drawing a parallel here but it exists.

The writing's on the wall from the moment they mention "The Social Construction of Reality" aka known as "The Cultural Turn" aka "The Linguistic Turn"...and poor Buffy doesn't understand any of it. Seasons 6/7 are full blown postmodernism. It wasn't that Buffy wasn't pomo before but it's turned away from playful pomo to a critical postmoderism. The writers aren't just reading Bond...they're also reading Baudrillard.

We have "cartoon villains" in Buffy because that's what real villains and heroes have become (or are in danger of becoming)...cartoons and characters on the screen.
I think most of the characters have depth except Harmony who is a comic relief. Lol.

yeah Willow suddenly being able to say a one word spell and being at least as strong, agile and as good a fighter as a highly trained and experienced slayer really bugged me, it feels like ‘ok so nothing means anything at all anymore’


The Buffy/Willow fight should be this hugely emotional fight and I just feel ‘empty’watching it. It’s not the first time we’ve had the friend v foe fight (thinking mostly of Angelus/Buffy and Buffy/Faith here) and bothof them fights (well multiple in both cases) you can feel the intensity of it and they bring the personality of the characters into it despite Sarah/Eliza/David not technically being in huge chunks of these fights. There’s no gravitas to it. I’m going off topic though as I could moan about the Dark Willow stuff for ages 😂
I absolutely love Buffy/Willow fight.
 

Priceless

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I think most of the characters have depth except Harmony who is a comic relief. Lol.
Harmony lasts into Fray's time, so she's a survivor. She has a successful television career and becomes an influencer. She's lucky to exist at a time in culture where being shallow is seen as a positive.
 
TriBel
TriBel
Beat me to it. In all fairness, I was following the match.

sweetiepie

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Harmony lasts into Fray's time, so she's a survivor. She has a successful television career and becomes an influencer. She's lucky to exist at a time in culture where being shallow is seen as a positive.
This is one of the most weird and funny things in the comics.
 
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