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Was Buffy in love with Spike

Was Buffy in love with Spike?


  • Total voters
    37

Faded90

Scooby
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Apr 2, 2020
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63
I think she loved him but I doubt if she was IN love with him. I do believe her when she said it
 

spikeverse

Townie
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Sep 22, 2021
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22
For me she had fallen in love with Spike but now why do I think so?

In season 5 she says she couldn't say I love you even when she thinks so and yet she succeeds for Spike which is something she doesn't lightly say she wouldn't lie about it or say it not just to relieve a dying if you notice in S5 E4 Riley had to die he has Buffy's * support * but no confession of love
I'm not going to say that in season 6 she was in love with Spike because it would be necessary but she definitely has feelings of love for Spike I think it's between feelings and loved in season 6 and I am not making it up. not she says it in "red passion" and several times in season 7 "I have feelings for you I admit it but I would never trust you enough to love you" I find it funny that she often underlines the confidence she could have been satisfied to say I do not love you but no there she clearly says that what is missing is the confidence but nevertheless it is true does not you really not trust in Spike? Yes she trusts Spike (at least a minimum) the proof she wears the handcuffs that Spike proposed to her she feels betrayed when he sleeps with Anya so that there is a feeling of betrayal you first need a feeling of confidence
Back to season 7 Buffy hints several times that she is in love with Spike
Season 7 Episode "Date Dangerous" A pretty disturbing line from Buffy "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike" when she meets Willow don't talk about what she's doing? She comes across the first opportunity to change the subject if it is not a revealing labsus I do not know myself
in the same episode Alex her * best friend * gets stabbed she goes to who? Spike the one she loves
Giles is trying to kill Spike what is she doing? She breaks all ties with him who is so more her father from the start
she even says in an episode "you got away the only person watching over me" she says although she only gives her trust to Spike
moreover in chosen she has a pretty weird reaction when Angel asks her if she is in love with Spike of the kind yes I am in love with him but I hide it in addition we can observe the change of behavior when Angel is jealous she is cold with him when Spike is jealous she is nice and minimizes her ****ing with Angel as if she owed him something because she feels something for Spike
Post automatically merged:

I think she loved him but I doubt if she was IN love with him. I do believe her when she said it
I'm sure she was in love with him more it was confirmed by Joss, Jane Esperon and David Furry it was just a different love from the one she had for Angel she had a more adult and mature love to her Besides, I wonder why I would have created a romantic atmosphere in the last episode (where the hands are set on fire) if she was not in love with it

in the episode "Let the show begin" she says that she wants her to return her flame = her feelings her love
Spike in "red passion" True love burns and consumes her in the last episode their hand ignites Spike reconnects her to his feelings

In the episode the show starts again


we can see that Spike is holding Buffy and Dawn's hand (Dawn is life, the heart, the feelings of Buffy) and spike reread them both
 
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Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,229
Age
55
Its simple to me you tell a dying person ( I use person but Spike is not one ) what you think they want to hear, Spike knew this when he said no you don't , never seen watched Angel but surely if Spike cared or thought Buffy loved him and there was any chance or it was right with Buffy firstly he would not have boosted like a school boy to Angel and secondly he would have contacted her
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Dec 23, 2013
Messages
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The Moot, England
Sineya
Nope, the whole Buffy/Spike thing is written to be rather interpretive regarding the strength of her feelings for him, especially in Season 7.

She may've liked him, clearly trusted him above all others (however unwise that might've been) but not really loved. To me her investment in Spike seems borne out of obligation and guilt rather than some deep well of fondness.
He got a soul for her so she feels that she has to look after him.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
It's fascinating to me how differently fans interpret the show. I would argue the complete opposite.

spikeverse

Townie
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Sep 22, 2021
Messages
73
Age
22
Nope, the whole Buffy/Spike thing is written to be rather interpretive regarding the strength of her feelings for him, especially in Season 7.

She may've liked him, clearly trusted him above all others (however unwise that might've been) but not really loved. To me her investment in Spike seems borne out of obligation and guilt rather than some deep well of fondness.
He got a soul for her so she feels that she has to look after him.
For me she was undoubtedly in love with spike and no I am convinced that she did not say it just because he was going to die it is very bad to know Buffy in season 5 she says herself that she does not arrive more to say I love you even when she thinks it so 2 years later it's even worse I guess I love you is not something she said lightly she said it to Angel and even not to Riley and then she tells Spike, Riley is going to die in episode S5 E4 and what does she say? nothing he has his * support * but no declaration of love *

Buffy was in love with spike when their hands met- Joss Weldhon

Buffy was in love with spike in season - 7

When someone ........ So yes Buffy loved Spike - Janes Esperon

Spikw shuts hell's mouth Buffy opens her heart true love transforms that's what happened with Buffy and Spike - Joss Weldhon
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Sineya
I love you is not something she said lightly she said it to Angel and even not to Riley and then she tells Spike, Riley is going to die in episode S5 E4 and what does she say? nothing he has his * support * but no declaration of love *

Yeah, but Buffy told Angel that she loved Riley (In AtS S1 Sanctuary). And if Buffy never lies about her feelings and always means every 'love' that she declares- as you seem to think- then of course Buffy loved Riley. It's undeniable because she said it.

Then again if Buffy maybe lies about how she feels to makes somebody feel...worse (or better) then maybe that's what she was doing in 'Chosen', telling a lie out of kindness; not always a bad thing.

Buffy was in love with spike when their hands met- Joss Weldhon

Buffy was in love with spike in season - 7

When someone ........ So yes Buffy loved Spike - Janes Esperon

Spikw shuts hell's mouth Buffy opens her heart true love transforms that's what happened with Buffy and Spike - Joss Weldhon

Joss has also said that Buffy and Angel are one true forever loves and meant to be and all that other nonsense.

Joss Whedon himself believes in death of the author, that as soon as you send out a work of fiction into the world it doesn't just belong to you anymore; that 'it changes, it talks back' in ways an author did not intent. That's art for many people, deeply personal let different interpretations of the same thing.

So I don't care what Joss says off-screen or in commentaries, that doesn't wash with me, on-screen is what matters. And onscreen was very ambiguous, deliberately so.
It didn't have to be, Joss could've made it all more definitive, but he went with a certain way of writing and we got what we got. It appeals to certain people, but its just not for me and many, many others.

But it certainly isn't up to Joss Whedon to decide how to interpret a story, its up to the viewer.


For me she was undoubtedly in love with spike and no I am convinced that she did not say it just because he was going to die

And for me she was merely thanking Spike in a way that he would appreciate, for all his love and support up until that point. She did that by telling him what he wanted to hear because in the end what did it matter?

Or maybe she loved him as a friend and not like a 'one true love' which is why Spike rejected what she said?


Obviously Buffy had gotten over her previous fear of 'you say you love them and then they leave'; she has gotten over that fear because she realized by 'End Of Days' that it isn't automatically her fault if something ends; not her father leaving, not Angel leaving, not Riley flying off. That revelation was freeing and so, after Sunnydale, she doesn't have so much emotional baggage from past relationships.

But Buffy had to say goodbye to Spike first, and she did, with kindness, and then she went off to live a better life.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
I'm with you on this
BaskingINBangel
BaskingINBangel
I completely agree with all of this!

spikeverse

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Yeah, but Buffy told Angel that she loved Riley (In AtS S1 Sanctuary). And if Buffy never lies about her feelings and always means every 'love' that she declares- as you seem to think- then of course Buffy loved Riley. It's undeniable because she said it.

Then again if Buffy maybe lies about how she feels to makes somebody feel...worse (or better) then maybe that's what she was doing in 'Chosen', telling a lie out of kindness; not always a bad thing.



Joss has also said that Buffy and Angel are one true forever loves and meant to be and all that other nonsense.

Joss Whedon himself believes in death of the author, that as soon as you send out a work of fiction into the world it doesn't just belong to you anymore; that 'it changes, it talks back' in ways an author did not intent. That's art for many people, deeply personal let different interpretations of the same thing.

So I don't care what Joss says off-screen or in commentaries, that doesn't wash with me, on-screen is what matters. And onscreen was very ambiguous, deliberately so.
It didn't have to be, Joss could've made it all more definitive, but he went with a certain way of writing and we got what we got. It appeals to certain people, but its just not for me and many, many others.

But it certainly isn't up to Joss Whedon to decide how to interpret a story, its up to the viewer.




And for me she was merely thanking Spike in a way that he would appreciate, for all his love and support up until that point. She did that by telling him what he wanted to hear because in the end what did it matter?

Or maybe she loved him as a friend and not like a 'one true love' which is why Spike rejected what she said?


Obviously Buffy had gotten over her previous fear of 'you say you love them and then they leave'; she has gotten over that fear because she realized by 'End Of Days' that it isn't automatically her fault if something ends; not her father leaving, not Angel leaving, not Riley flying off. That revelation was freeing and so, after Sunnydale, she doesn't have so much emotional baggage from past relationships.

But Buffy had to say goodbye to Spike first, and she did, with kindness, and then she went off to live a better life.
Maybe I idealize Buffy but I really don't think that she would say I love you leave kindness after everyone is free to think what they want but for me I do not quit and it is also more simple to say I love you to a person directly than to another that you see what once every 36 of the month and to love her as a friend I'm not sure she chose to spend that last night with Spike besides I'm sure if she would have lived everything she's been through with Alex instead of Spike it looks like everything "she loves Alex and everything" because she never did that I'm sure it is not a coincidence that it is last words is "i love you .... Spike" after all is only interpretation each one spnt opinion me I perceived it like that not you
 

Faded90

Scooby
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Messages
894
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63
Maybe I idealize Buffy but I really don't think that she would say I love you leave kindness after everyone is free to think what they want but for me I do not quit and it is also more simple to say I love you to a person directly than to another that you see what once every 36 of the month and to love her as a friend I'm not sure she chose to spend that last night with Spike besides I'm sure if she would have lived everything she's been through with Alex instead of Spike it looks like everything "she loves Alex and everything" because she never did that I'm sure it is not a coincidence that it is last words is "i love you .... Spike" after all is only interpretation each one spnt opinion me I perceived it like that not you
To be honest I think people read too much into her last word being ‘Spike’. I genuinely don’t think Joss meant a whole lot in that, the final scene is about Buffy coming to the realisation of the slice of normality she could possibly have. It’s not about Spike, albeit I have no doubt she’s proud of him. Honestly I’d say Buffy’s final line is her smile, which says everything without having to actually say anything
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
37
The entirety of the Buffy/Spike subplot in S7 is leading up to Buffy's admission (which is literally foretold in Help) - taking shipping preferences out of it entirely, it makes no sense story-wise for her not to mean it. A large part of Buffy's emotional journey in S7 is about her working through her feelings for Spike and the fact that she can not articulate them until that final moment is on purpose so that that moment has the dramatic impact and weight it deserves based on what the narrative is doing and has been doing all season long. Buffy's "I love you" is only ambiguous if you're ignoring everything that comes before it in the season and also what the show has been telling us about Buffy - and telling us explicitly - since S5. There is nothing in the series that suggests she would lie at this moment even out of kindness - love is too important and fraught for her to lie about, but also, when has she ever lied to Spike to make him feel better? A bedrock of their whole relationship is that they are and can be honest with each other - sometimes brutally so. If Buffy didn't mean it or was unsure of it she wouldn't say it at all. The fact that she can and does is a huge character moment for her. Minimizing it into a pity declaration not only takes that tremendous growth away from her (and frankly goes against her character imo), it also unnecessarily fumbles the ending to a story that has very intentionally been being built all season long. Also, it's not just the words that are significant in this scene, but the visual storytelling which can't be ignored or undervalued as TV is a visual medium. Their joined hands literally burst into flame while their theme plays with neither of them seeming to feel physical pain from it. The expressions on both of their faces are telling the audience how meaningful and powerful this moment is and it leads directly to Buffy's "I love you."

Re: the kind of love Buffy feels, going back to the visual storytelling for clues, fire is an ongoing motif on this show re: romantic love and passion. Buffy says to Willow in Something Blue: "But I can't help thinking — isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but... part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting. In Once More With Feeling she sings about touching the fire and it freezing her (with the camera focusing on her hand btw which in retrospect becomes p significant bc of that moment in Chosen which is itself foreshadowed in Touched and earlier in Chosen where Buffy is stroking Spike's hand (but not interlocking their fingers which she does in that final moment) as he sleeps on two separate occasions). That lack of feeling is by her own (sung) admission part of the reason she gives in to her desires and begins a sexual relationship with him. She wants to feel something intense, passionate, which he gives her and she gives him back in spades but it's missing integral pieces for them both. She develops feelings for him (and I think it's especially evident in the break up scene that she has) which she admits to but tells him "I could never trust you enough for it to be love", trust being a key thing Buffy needs when it comes to love (she learned her lesson re: passionately loving despite not fully trusting with Angel in S2 and trusting without loving passionately with Riley in 5). Keeping that it mind, it's important to note that Buffy's trust in Spike is pretty absolute in S7 and that's especially significant because of what she tells him in S6. In the same scene, Spike says "Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. Great love is wild and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes" and Buffy doesn't deny that as an understanding of love since it's one she bought into herself with Angel (see again above quote), but she responds with "Until there's nothing left" recognizing and understanding that kind of love is destructive (which it is and is especially unsubtly so in S6). It is 100% significant that their joined hands catch on fire but it's not hurting them, it's not destroying them or consuming them and after it happens Buffy is hit with a realization that is incredibly profound - her face journey is amazing and I honestly don't know how it can be read as anything other than her realizing in that moment that she loves him, and with an expression like that I find it hard to believe it's solely platonic.

Joined hands (partnership, affection) and fire (passion, love) that doesn't cause pain, that doesn't hurt - Buffy has never had that in a romantic relationship until this moment and this moment shows her that she can, she is capable which has been a concern of hers since S5. To not have her mean it completely undermines a very specific character journey that Buffy has been on for a long time and is as much about her as it is about Spike, and his "No you don't" and his not following her out of the Hellmouth and choosing instead to stay and finish the job (even when she gives him an out and tells him what she tells him) is the end of a very specific character journey for him that he's also been on since S5 as someone wanting to be loved by Buffy and wanting to be worthy of that love. He becomes a true hero and champion when he lets Buffy go because he is letting go of something and someone he wants and has wanted to a degree that it has dictated nearly all of his actions for several seasons. It is the most unselfish act of love he has ever performed and imo, he becomes Buffy's true equal in this moment and someone she could love without holding back as she has done since she got her heart broken in S3. Imo, neither of their journeys in S7 which are end points to seasons-long character arcs carry nearly as much dramatic weight unless she means it and he knows she does but chooses to let her go.​
 
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AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
I'm not persuaded but you make a good case
thetopher
thetopher
S7 is just about Buffy and Spike, its about Buffy and all her previous relationships. So its absolutely possible to see her declaration of love to Spike as something else entirely...because its not all about Spike at the end.

AstridDante

Potential
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The entirety of the Buffy/Spike subplot in S7 is leading up to Buffy's admission (which is literally foretold in Help) - taking shipping preferences out of it entirely, it makes no sense story-wise for her not to mean it. A large part of Buffy's emotional journey in S7 is about her working through her feelings for Spike and the fact that she can not articulate them until that final moment is on purpose so that that moment has the dramatic impact and weight it deserves based on what the narrative is doing and has been doing all season long. Buffy's "I love you" is only ambiguous if you're ignoring everything that comes before it in the season and also what the show has been telling us about Buffy - and telling us explicitly - since S5. There is nothing in the series that suggests she would lie at this moment even out of kindness - love is too important and fraught for her to lie about, but also, when has she ever lied to Spike to make him feel better? A bedrock of their whole relationship is that they are and can be honest with each other - sometimes brutally so. If Buffy didn't mean it or was unsure of it she wouldn't say it at all. The fact that she can and does is a huge character moment for her. Minimizing it into a pity declaration not only takes that tremendous growth away from her (and frankly goes against her character imo), it also unnecessarily fumbles the ending to a story that has very intentionally been being built all season long. Also, it's not just the words that are significant in this scene, but the visual storytelling which can't be ignored or undervalued as TV is a visual medium. Their joined hands literally burst into flame while their theme plays with neither of them seeming to feel physical pain from it. The expressions on both of their faces are telling the audience how meaningful and powerful this moment is and it leads directly to Buffy's "I love you."

Re: the kind of love Buffy feels, going back to the visual storytelling for clues, fire is an ongoing motif on this show re: romantic love and passion. Buffy says to Willow in Something Blue: "But I can't help thinking — isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but... part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting. In Once More With Feeling she sings about touching the fire and it freezing her (with the camera focusing on her hand btw which in retrospect becomes p significant bc of that moment in Chosen which is itself foreshadowed in Touched and earlier in Chosen where Buffy is stroking Spike's hand (but not interlocking their fingers which she does in that final moment) as he sleeps on two separate occasions). That lack of feeling is by her own (sung) admission part of the reason she gives in to her desires and begins a sexual relationship with him. She wants to feel something intense, passionate, which he gives her and she gives him back in spades but it's missing integral pieces for them both. She develops feelings for him (and I think it's especially evident in the break up scene that she has) which she admits to but tells him "I could never trust you enough for it to be love", trust being a key thing Buffy needs when it comes to love (she learned her lesson re: passionately loving despite not fully trusting with Angel in S2 and trusting without loving passionately with Riley in 5). Keeping that it mind, it's important to note that Buffy's trust in Spike is pretty absolute in S7 and that's especially significant because of what she tells him in S6. In the same scene, Spike says "Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. Great love is wild and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes" and Buffy doesn't deny that as an understanding of love since it's one she bought into herself with Angel (see again above quote), but she responds with "Until there's nothing left" recognizing and understanding that kind of love is destructive (which it is and is especially unsubtly so in S6). It is 100% significant that their joined hands catch on fire but it's not hurting them, it's not destroying them or consuming them and after it happens Buffy is hit with a realization that is incredibly profound - her face journey is amazing and I honestly don't know how it can be read as anything other than her realizing in that moment that she loves him, and with an expression like that I find it hard to believe it's solely platonic.

Joined hands (partnership, affection) and fire (passion, love) that doesn't cause pain, that doesn't hurt - Buffy has never had that in a romantic relationship until this moment and this moment shows her that she can, she is capable which has been a concern of hers since S5. To not have her mean it completely undermines a very specific character journey that Buffy has been on for a long time and is as much about her as it is about Spike, and his "No you don't" and his not following her out of the Hellmouth and choosing instead to stay and finish the job (even when she gives him an out and tells him what she tells him) is the end of a very specific character journey for him that he's also been on since S5 as someone wanting to be loved by Buffy and wanting to be worthy of that love. He becomes a true hero and champion when he lets Buffy go because he is letting go of something and someone he wants and has wanted to a degree that it has dictated nearly all of his actions for several seasons. It is the most unselfish act of love he has ever performed and imo, he becomes Buffy's true equal in this moment and someone she could love without holding back as she has done since she got her heart broken in S3. Imo, neither of their journeys in S7 which are end points to seasons-long character arcs carry nearly as much dramatic weight unless she means it and he knows she does but chooses to let her go.​
Brilliant analysis and I agree with almost every point except I don’t think Spike believed her. He really doubted himself since getting his soul. He didn’t feel worthy of her love
 
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Brilliant analysis and I agree with almost every point except I don’t think Spike believed her. He really doubted himself since getting his soul. He didn’t feel worthy of her love

I go back and forth myself on this - yesterday was a 'he believed her' day for me, tomorrow will probably be the opposite 😂 - I actually took the stance he doesn't the first time I responded to this question on another thread because that works better for me story-wise when ATS is considered and that was part of the conversation on that thread, but in the context of BTVS and his journey specifically on it I feel like his believing her is a stronger ending for his arc - either way, his response and what he means is the only ambiguous part of this exchange imo - as I said above it makes no sense narratively or emotionally for Buffy not to absolutely mean it when she says it.
 
AstridDante
AstridDante
Agreed. 100 per cent

Dora

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For me she was undoubtedly in love with spike and no I am convinced that she did not say it just because he was going to die it is very bad to know Buffy in season 5 she says herself that she does not arrive more to say I love you even when she thinks it so 2 years later it's even worse I guess I love you is not something she said lightly she said it to Angel and even not to Riley and then she tells Spike, Riley is going to die in episode S5 E4 and what does she say? nothing he has his * support * but no declaration of love *

Buffy was in love with spike when their hands met- Joss Weldhon

Buffy was in love with spike in season - 7

When someone ........ So yes Buffy loved Spike - Janes Esperon

Spikw shuts hell's mouth Buffy opens her heart true love transforms that's what happened with Buffy and Spike - Joss Weldhon
I would take very little what Whedon said outside the script, the most famous must be Spike got his soul for Buffy yet getting a soul is not mentioned in the confrontation with the demon and Whedon then rewrote the church scene that another writer had already written , where Spike tells Buffy he got it for her
Earlier in S7 when Dawn ask Buffy if she loved Spike she said she felt for him, you can love someone or something but not be in love with them, example I love my dog
I believe that in S7 what Buffy is feeling is guilt , certainly since Spike told her he got his soul for her, guilt because she used him for self harming in S6 ,
Buffy relied on Spike in S7 because she could no longer it appears rely or fully trust the scoobies including her own sister. Buffy knew Spike would do anything for her and I think that added to her guilt.
She wanted him but knew that would be wrong as it could easily go back to the S&M and sexual abuse of S6 ,also Buffy knew it could not be a long term thing with Spike, he could not give her what she needed, that's why Angel her real love left
Buffy told a dying Spike what she thought he wanted to hear as for the flames I thought that it showed Spike finally coming good , finally leaving the demon behind, well until he turned up on Angel and boasted about Buffy
 

Nix

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Sineya
I do think she loved him and cared deeply in the end. But, I don't think she loved him in the way she loved Angel... that was epic Disney style love <3 hehe... I'll wait
 

spikeverse

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I don't think we can quantify the love for that no doubt she loved them so much but you're right she'll never love Spike the way she loved Angel because we love more the same way at 16 and at 22/23 years old Angel she loved him in a way of the first BIG love (idealized, pure, beautiful loves ...) Spike she loved him in a second BIG love way (realistic, dark and luminous a both, hard ...) so yes I would never dispute that she loved Angel but we simply cannot compare how we love at 16 when we are naive and beginner than at 23 when we are careful , with experience ... Buffy is more and more closed over the seasons we see that in season 1 we arrive easily q creates links with them but little by little less and less I think that comes from her problem of abandonment of men she is now afraid of refueling we see that it had already started in S2 when she did not come back She doesn't like her father anymore and in one episode she even * fears * of being the cause of her parents' divorce and then abandons her after Owen well ok she didn't love him but it's still a * abandonment * for her then come on Scoot and after Angel that she loved hurt her a lot she couldn't even say "I love you" after which then abandons her Riley good the question whether she liked her or not remains questionable who then abandons him Giles! the one she considers her father ... All that to say that she creates a normal shell that she shows less of her feelings :)
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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Of course Buffy loved Spike. She said so.
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Maybe I idealize Buffy but I really don't think that she would say I love you leave kindness after everyone is free to think what they want...
I agree. I don't think Buffy would insult Spike on that level and say she loved him when she didn't. She trusted and respected him.

Buffy didn't tell Spike she loved him for the reason some fans think. She didn't tell him because she thought that's what he wanted to hear, to be kind. If that were the case, she would have told him before.

Buffy told Spike she loved him BECAUSE she didn't want him to die NOT KNOWING THE TRUTH.
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I do think she loved him and cared deeply in the end. But, I don't think she loved him in the way she loved Angel... that was epic Disney style love <3 hehe... I'll wait
It's interesting to me whenever this debate comes up, that someone always says "Buffy may have loved him but not how she loved Angel", etc. I don't understand why there is always a comparison. Is it because Angel was Buffy's first love? Why can't some fans admit that Buffy has/had the capacity the love several men? Angel, Riley and Spike perhaps? I'm the biggest Spuffy around and even I have no issue admitting that Buffy loved Angel. Of course she did. Where I argue, of course, is that Spike is Buffy's soulmate, not Angel as many fans believe.
 
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spikeverse

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Of course Buffy loved Spike. She said so.
Post automatically merged:


I agree. I don't think Buffy would insult Spike on that level and say she loved him when she didn't. She trusted and respected him.

Buffy didn't tell Spike she loved him for the reason some fans think. She didn't tell him because she thought that's what he wanted to hear, to be kind. If that were the case, she would have told him before.

Buffy told Spike she loved him BECAUSE she didn't want him to die NOT KNOWING THE TRUTH.
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It's interesting to me whenever this debate comes up, that someone always says "Buffy may have loved him but not how she loved Angel", etc. I don't understand why there is always a comparison. Is it because Angel was Buffy's first love? Why can't some fans admit that Buffy has/had the capacity the love several men? Angel, Riley and Spike perhaps? I'm the biggest Spuffy around and even I have no issue admitting that Buffy loved Angel. Of course she did. Where I argue, of course, is that Spike is Buffy's soulmate, not Angel as many fans believe.
It's true I agree you always have to compare as we never love the same way she loved Spike and Angel so differently and at different times in her normal life that she doesn't show the love like that she suffered the abandonment of men (her father, Owen, Scott, Angel, Riley) she is forged a shell and then if I believed in soul mates I would not attribute it to Angel and Buffy I want to believe in love where you love a person for what he IS for his faults and his qualities and that it is communication, compression everything that makes a couple a couple
 

Dora

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It's true I agree you always have to compare as we never love the same way she loved Spike and Angel so differently and at different times in her normal life that she doesn't show the love like that she suffered the abandonment of men (her father, Owen, Scott, Angel, Riley) she is forged a shell and then if I believed in soul mates I would not attribute it to Angel and Buffy I want to believe in love where you love a person for what he IS for his faults and his qualities and that it is communication, compression everything that makes a couple a couple
Buffy never had a normal life since she was called, fighting for your life every night ( sometimes against Spike ) would bring on maturity remember at 17 she rented a room and had a full time job in LA
Not sure about abandonment issues yes her father and certainly Giles if he had not just left then Buffy would never have got mixed up with Spike, Owen and Scott were just high school crushes , Riley could not handle Buffy being stronger etc than he was , his issues and Angel never abandon her , he brought the amulet and was prepared to wear it but Buffy sent him back to prepare a second front if needed , when you love someone you want the best for them even when that is not with you , remember Angel left her so she could be in the light where Spike only wanted her to go into the dark with him
What I think is telling is the I can't breath when talking about Angel leaving to the no tears, no remorse over Spike at the end of chosen and the smile when she realised her life would change
 
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"S7 is just about Buffy and Spike, its about Buffy and all her previous relationships. So its absolutely possible to see her declaration of love to Spike as something else entirely...because its not all about Spike at the end."

I didn't say S7 was just about Buffy and Spike, I said their relationship was a subplot which it is, but it’s an important subplot as it ties directly into Buffy’s emotional journey in the season which is deeply intertwined with her previous relationships and the impact they have had on her and the impact her Slayerness has had on them and herself. You can’t really separate the Buffy and Spike subplot from her previous relationships when Spike is a previous relationship and also a current one especially when her relationship with him in S7 directly helps resolve a number of issues Buffy has about herself and those previous relationships.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is all about Buffy, but that moment is also about Spike - not her friends, not her family - that was Season 5. If this were S2 it would be about Angel. Buffy takes his hand, their fingers entwine and burst into flame and she says looking into his eyes while the world crumbles around them and their love theme plays,“I love you”. This is clearly A Big Moment. Everything that is happening on screen is telling us this is A Big Moment. Buffy has been inching her way towards realizing she loves Spike all season long in a trackable way and as I've pointed out previously, that "I love you" is foretold by a prescient character. Why would the show do that for a pity "I love you", or even a kind lie? Especially with a character who has never been shown to lie about how she feels before and also canonically has difficulty saying those words in the first place? Even the first time she says them to Angel they're not offered up freely. Having that "I love you" not mean I love you does not work for a season finale, let alone a series finale when it's between two characters that have the history they have both individually and together. A lie, even a kind one, does nothing for Buffy as a character in her last episode ever but the truth does. That's the argument I'm ultimately making. Obvs folks can take it or leave it, interpret anything and everything any way they like, I'm the boss of no one but me lol, but that final moment, based on and supported by the text as I understand it, is absolutely unequivocally about Buffy realizing she loves Spike and imo that realization leads to an epiphany that she can love someone other than Angel, she can have that kind of love again, which is important. Her inability to have that, to give herself fully in that way to someone else, is a specific worry she has had that has followed her through every relationship she has had since he broke her heart - she specifically makes a comparison to how she was with Angel vs how she was with Riley herself in S5, and she talks specifically about her romantic relationships in Chosen - not her friendships or her familial ties, which to me, again, is a clue.

Buffy understanding that she is fully capable of having love again, returning love again, feeling it, saying it, and meaning it all at the same time with someone else is healing something inside of her that she believed to be broken - the issue with her inability to connect with others has already been resolved by this point in a literal and emotional way. This is the final missing piece. Imo, it's not about shipping, it's about closure, it's about Buffy, our heroine, who we have been following for 7 years, being able to enter into the next phase of her life whole and with hope. That's what meaning that "I love you" does for her character, and Spike is not inconsequential when it comes to all of this. He is the person in her life who helps her get there. He is the one that helps her realize she is not shut down, she is not broken, and there are a number of reasons why the character that does that for her and who she can do that with is Spike.

There are plenty of instances where there can be multiple interpretations that have viability - for example, I think there is totally room for debate as to what kind of love Buffy is feeling for Spike in that moment though obviously I would still come down on the side of romantic myself for all the reasons I've already noted (and for the record I actually think what she's feeling is even bigger than just that though that's there too and that is because of the visual storytelling in that moment) - but there is no evidence that I can see to suggest she doesn't love him at all, so for me, that is not a viable interpretation, it's just an interpretation which isn't necessarily the same thing.
 

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Yeah, but Buffy told Angel that she loved Riley (In AtS S1 Sanctuary). And if Buffy never lies about her feelings and always means every 'love' that she declares- as you seem to think- then of course Buffy loved Riley. It's undeniable because she said it.

Then again if Buffy maybe lies about how she feels to makes somebody feel...worse (or better) then maybe that's what she was doing in 'Chosen', telling a lie out of kindness; not always a bad thing.



Joss has also said that Buffy and Angel are one true forever loves and meant to be and all that other nonsense.

Joss Whedon himself believes in death of the author, that as soon as you send out a work of fiction into the world it doesn't just belong to you anymore; that 'it changes, it talks back' in ways an author did not intent. That's art for many people, deeply personal let different interpretations of the same thing.

So I don't care what Joss says off-screen or in commentaries, that doesn't wash with me, on-screen is what matters. And onscreen was very ambiguous, deliberately so.
It didn't have to be, Joss could've made it all more definitive, but he went with a certain way of writing and we got what we got. It appeals to certain people, but its just not for me and many, many others.

But it certainly isn't up to Joss Whedon to decide how to interpret a story, its up to the viewer.




And for me she was merely thanking Spike in a way that he would appreciate, for all his love and support up until that point. She did that by telling him what he wanted to hear because in the end what did it matter?

Or maybe she loved him as a friend and not like a 'one true love' which is why Spike rejected what she said?


Obviously Buffy had gotten over her previous fear of 'you say you love them and then they leave'; she has gotten over that fear because she realized by 'End Of Days' that it isn't automatically her fault if something ends; not her father leaving, not Angel leaving, not Riley flying off. That revelation was freeing and so, after Sunnydale, she doesn't have so much emotional baggage from past relationships.

But Buffy had to say goodbye to Spike first, and she did, with kindness, and then she went off to live a better life.

Deliberately so. He has 2 large fan bases within the fandom. B/A and B/S and wanted to appease both. Especially as he was taking Spike (and his fanbase) over to Angel the following year.
He's aware of it though. On the Chosen commentary he does make laugh when saying he's got Buffy kissing Angel then jumping into bed with Spike.
Honestly the most gutless bit was him saying he wasn't going to do Sam and Diane on Cheers but then says that of the scene of Buffy walking down the steps to see Spike with his amulet , that if you want to have them sleep together you can do. Urgh that's so cowardly 😒

Honestly looking back I feel sorry for the Buffy character. She's now defined by who she's seeing. Either Angel or Spike and that's it. That's all threads are nowadays and all that's asked about. Hell Whedon even kept it going by breaking healthy Spuffy in the comics off screen and going back to will they won't they with Angel and Spike.
 
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