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Was Buffy or Xander more persuasive about killing or not killing Anya in Selfless?

Who was more persuasive in the argument about killing (or not killing) Anya in Selfless?

  • Buffy

    Votes: 18 66.7%
  • Xander

    Votes: 9 33.3%

  • Total voters
    27

Leo

"Mist... cemetery... Halloween. Should end well."
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
62
Age
34
I'm with Buffy here. It's not a minor transgression and initially Anya didn't show remorse publicly.
 

Ceadsearc03

Potential
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Messages
109
Buffy, hands down. I’m not saying I wanted Anya to be killed, but Buffy was right. The decision DOES fall to her as the Slayer, and Anya DID need to be stopped.

Xander was understandably clouded with emotion & probably blaming himself for being the trigger that set it all in motion. Buffy understood that deeply, having been there herself. If Xander was thinking logically, he would have realized that everything he told Buffy about Angelus applied to Anya too.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
6,682
Age
28
Seeking redemption is for pussies. It doesn't automatically make someone noble and wonderful. Combined, Spike and Angel killed far more people than Anya ever did. Either way, she didn't kill for pleasure, like Spike and Angel. She tormented men who had wronged women, which I support wholehearted.
I agree and disagree. In regards to Spike, he was so much better when he was evil and with Dru. He wasn't Buffy's lap dog. With, Angel, his soul makes the redemption storyline work and he should be the ONLY souled vampire in the Buffyverse.

In regards to Anya, I don't think she was picky over who her clients were. A man could've left a woman because she was a batshit crazy bunny boiler, yet Anya would carry out the woman's vengeance on the man for daring to leave her. It's all a matter of perspective.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
502
Age
37
I agree and disagree. In regards to Spike, he was so much better when he was evil and with Dru. He wasn't Buffy's lap dog. With, Angel, his soul makes the redemption storyline work and he should be the ONLY souled vampire in the Buffyverse.

In regards to Anya, I don't think she was picky over who her clients were. A man could've left a woman because she was a batshit crazy bunny boiler, yet Anya would carry out the woman's vengeance on the man for daring to leave her. It's all a matter of perspective.
Anya was a vengence demon for 1000 years. Her body count is going to be higher simply because of that.
Plus all the others who were killed by her. In Into the Woods she boasts about making a guy combust and setting his whole village on fire 😳

Besides she choose to be a Vengence demon twice
 

vampmogs

Townie
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
77
Age
30
I'm with Buffy.

A lot of people accuse Buffy of "rushing into things" with Anya, or not giving "Anya a chance" for rehabilitation like she did Angel/Spike, or being hypocritical as it took her "much longer" to kill Angelus etc. However, this is all factually untrue. At the beginning of "Selfless" Buffy tells Xander that "there's definitely a vengeance vibe worth worrying about" which is evidence that Buffy was indeed expressing concern about Anya's work prior to the fraternity massacre and that she had been worrying about it. This is later confirmed by Buffy herself when she tells Xander that "the thought it might come to this has crossed [her] mind before." In fact, when she tells him it's "crossed [his] mind too", he doesn't even deny it. Furthermore, Buffy has known that Anya was a vengeance demon again since "Villains" and she had already expressed a distrust for Anya and her intentions in "Two to Go" when she asked Anya pointblank as to whether or not she could be trusted ("Anya I need to know what side of this you're gonna be on"). Since then, not only did Buffy let Anya operate both locally and globally as a vengeance demon again for at least 3 months, but she did nothing to stop Anya in "Beneath You" when it's revealed that Anya turned Ronnie into the monstrous worm demon. Ronnie killed an innocent dog and almost killed Xander and Nancy; not to mention nearly dying himself. Anya also expressed in this episode a clear and worrying disdain for humans and devoted loyalty to the vengeance cause.

So, no, Buffy didn't "rush into things" with Anya. Buffy allowed Anya free reign whilst her spells continued to escalate and the only reason Buffy did that is because Buffy was trying to avoid an inevitable confrontation. Buffy stakes vampires for much less.

I also think Buffy was pretty spot on in nailing the fundamental difference between Anya and Angel/Spike. Anya chose to become a demon twice. Whilst Angel and Spike were victims too "once upon a time" ("Damage".) Whilst both vampires are capable of some terrible atrocities, neither of them chose to be monsters knowingly and both of them were severely handicapped by the lack of a soul. Not only did Anya display a consistent lack of remorse for her victims throughout her time as a human but Anya clearly demonstrated in this episode that as a demon she was perfectly capable of not just remorse ("What have I done?") but also the ability to do the right thing ("I take it back"). Whilst this ultimately ends with Anya offering up her own life in exchange and doing the right thing, it also demonstrates that Anya committed her atrocities and bloodshed all the while having the capability to distinguish from right and wrong and choose a more moral and heroic path. That makes her crimes far worse than Angel or Spike's, IMO, and it makes her choice to be a demon again much worse too.

So I don't blame Buffy at all for believing that she needed to slay Anya. Anya just slaughtered 12 young men. Buffy would be horribly irresponsible if she didn't go after Anya. And leaving aside the fact that I don't think there's much difference between how Buffy behaved with Angel/us and how she behaved here with Anya, even if there were, is this a sign of hypocrisy on Buffy's behalf or just a sign of growth? Buffy learnt the hard way in Season 2 that her inability to kill Angelus cost a lot of lives (including Jenny's -- "I'm sorry I couldn't kill him for you. For her. When I had the chance...") and after "Passion" Buffy made a real, proactive effort to hunt down and stop Angelus even at the cost of her own health (she literally faints in "Killed By Death" because she's so sick and won't rest). It's not hypocrisy if Buffy has learnt from that tragedy and has vowed to stop Anya before history repeats itself and things escalate even further. In her eyes, her hesitance to stop Anya earlier, despite clearly expressing concern about Anya's activities earlier in the episode, just cost 12 young people their lives. I'm not so quick to accuse characters of being "hypocrites" just because they change their behaviour and learn from their behaviour 5 years after behaving differently.

IMO, Xander was being a hypocrite, albeit a very understandable one. Buffy was absolutely justified to throw the Angelus saga back in his face after his cold, ruthless and insensitive cheerleading of Angel's demise.
 

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
264
I'm with Buffy.

A lot of people accuse Buffy of "rushing into things" with Anya, or not giving "Anya a chance" for rehabilitation like she did Angel/Spike, or being hypocritical as it took her "much longer" to kill Angelus etc. However, this is all factually untrue. At the beginning of "Selfless" Buffy tells Xander that "there's definitely a vengeance vibe worth worrying about" which is evidence that Buffy was indeed expressing concern about Anya's work prior to the fraternity massacre and that she had been worrying about it. This is later confirmed by Buffy herself when she tells Xander that "the thought it might come to this has crossed [her] mind before." In fact, when she tells him it's "crossed [his] mind too", he doesn't even deny it. Furthermore, Buffy has known that Anya was a vengeance demon again since "Villains" and she had already expressed a distrust for Anya and her intentions in "Two to Go" when she asked Anya pointblank as to whether or not she could be trusted ("Anya I need to know what side of this you're gonna be on"). Since then, not only did Buffy let Anya operate both locally and globally as a vengeance demon again for at least 3 months, but she did nothing to stop Anya in "Beneath You" when it's revealed that Anya turned Ronnie into the monstrous worm demon. Ronnie killed an innocent dog and almost killed Xander and Nancy; not to mention nearly dying himself. Anya also expressed in this episode a clear and worrying disdain for humans and devoted loyalty to the vengeance cause.

So, no, Buffy didn't "rush into things" with Anya. Buffy allowed Anya free reign whilst her spells continued to escalate and the only reason Buffy did that is because Buffy was trying to avoid an inevitable confrontation. Buffy stakes vampires for much less.

I also think Buffy was pretty spot on in nailing the fundamental difference between Anya and Angel/Spike. Anya chose to become a demon twice. Whilst Angel and Spike were victims too "once upon a time" ("Damage".) Whilst both vampires are capable of some terrible atrocities, neither of them chose to be monsters knowingly and both of them were severely handicapped by the lack of a soul. Not only did Anya display a consistent lack of remorse for her victims throughout her time as a human but Anya clearly demonstrated in this episode that as a demon she was perfectly capable of not just remorse ("What have I done?") but also the ability to do the right thing ("I take it back"). Whilst this ultimately ends with Anya offering up her own life in exchange and doing the right thing, it also demonstrates that Anya committed her atrocities and bloodshed all the while having the capability to distinguish from right and wrong and choose a more moral and heroic path. That makes her crimes far worse than Angel or Spike's, IMO, and it makes her choice to be a demon again much worse too.

So I don't blame Buffy at all for believing that she needed to slay Anya. Anya just slaughtered 12 young men. Buffy would be horribly irresponsible if she didn't go after Anya. And leaving aside the fact that I don't think there's much difference between how Buffy behaved with Angel/us and how she behaved here with Anya, even if there were, is this a sign of hypocrisy on Buffy's behalf or just a sign of growth? Buffy learnt the hard way in Season 2 that her inability to kill Angelus cost a lot of lives (including Jenny's -- "I'm sorry I couldn't kill him for you. For her. When I had the chance...") and after "Passion" Buffy made a real, proactive effort to hunt down and stop Angelus even at the cost of her own health (she literally faints in "Killed By Death" because she's so sick and won't rest). It's not hypocrisy if Buffy has learnt from that tragedy and has vowed to stop Anya before history repeats itself and things escalate even further. In her eyes, her hesitance to stop Anya earlier, despite clearly expressing concern about Anya's activities earlier in the episode, just cost 12 young people their lives. I'm not so quick to accuse characters of being "hypocrites" just because they change their behaviour and learn from their behaviour 5 years after behaving differently.

IMO, Xander was being a hypocrite, albeit a very understandable one. Buffy was absolutely justified to throw the Angelus saga back in his face after his cold, ruthless and insensitive cheerleading of Angel's demise.
Totally agree but I still give a point to @Athene, maybe it would have been better to have Buffy warning/having an intervention with Anya after Beneath You, you know, as a courtesy. I very much doubt that it would have changed anything because Anya wasn't ready to understand that she was still hurting and grieving her lost engagement and not really wanting to be a vengeance demon again. But at least we could claim that she had a fair warning - although I totally see your point about Buffy mentioning the trust issue to Anya in the last episodes of S6.

As I said before, one of the things that I do like a lot of their confrontation is that Anya seems very grown up, she understands that this is Buffy's job and that she crossed the line. The whole episode is brilliant in my opinion, there's a lot of introspection from all the characters involved - even from Xander at the very end by letting go of Anya as she asks him to do.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,037
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Buffy's argument was more persuasive because she said it was about choice and that's the fundamental in this case. Anya had a bad day and so decided to return to the life of blood vengeance that she'd done for a thousand years previously. With a soul and everything.
It's also worth noting that Buffy and co didn't know for sure if Anya was killing and leaving bodies all over the place or not, she can travel all over the world dispatching vengeance and killing and they wouldn't have known either way. But 'Selfless' is the first concrete evidence since the worm-guy red flag in 'Beneath You' and so yeah, Buffy acts decisively because, if she'd had any sense, she'd had thought about this very real possibility many times before.

I just wished she'd shown the same hard-headed practicality with trigger-Spike; but I can't criticize 'Selfless' Buffy for her future idiocy so yeah, she's right here.

But then again nobody brings up the vengeance amulet that Anya's kind has (we know that Willow has to know about the 'power center' from Doppelgangland); its not even discussed. Poor writing.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Thanks for putting my feelings into words. I wanted to answer but couldn't think of a way of saying, in a manner that wasn't pointless, that there was so much stupidity to disentangle in this season that it was futile for me to decide
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