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Was Buffy or Xander more persuasive about killing or not killing Anya in Selfless?

Who was more persuasive in the argument about killing (or not killing) Anya in Selfless?

  • Buffy

    Votes: 21 70.0%
  • Xander

    Votes: 9 30.0%

  • Total voters
    30

Leo

"Mist... cemetery... Halloween. Should end well."
Joined
Apr 12, 2019
Messages
62
Age
35
I'm with Buffy here. It's not a minor transgression and initially Anya didn't show remorse publicly.
 

Ceadsearc03

Potential
Joined
Apr 10, 2019
Messages
112
Buffy, hands down. I’m not saying I wanted Anya to be killed, but Buffy was right. The decision DOES fall to her as the Slayer, and Anya DID need to be stopped.

Xander was understandably clouded with emotion & probably blaming himself for being the trigger that set it all in motion. Buffy understood that deeply, having been there herself. If Xander was thinking logically, he would have realized that everything he told Buffy about Angelus applied to Anya too.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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29
Seeking redemption is for pussies. It doesn't automatically make someone noble and wonderful. Combined, Spike and Angel killed far more people than Anya ever did. Either way, she didn't kill for pleasure, like Spike and Angel. She tormented men who had wronged women, which I support wholehearted.
I agree and disagree. In regards to Spike, he was so much better when he was evil and with Dru. He wasn't Buffy's lap dog. With, Angel, his soul makes the redemption storyline work and he should be the ONLY souled vampire in the Buffyverse.

In regards to Anya, I don't think she was picky over who her clients were. A man could've left a woman because she was a batshit crazy bunny boiler, yet Anya would carry out the woman's vengeance on the man for daring to leave her. It's all a matter of perspective.
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
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Feb 11, 2019
Messages
664
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38
I agree and disagree. In regards to Spike, he was so much better when he was evil and with Dru. He wasn't Buffy's lap dog. With, Angel, his soul makes the redemption storyline work and he should be the ONLY souled vampire in the Buffyverse.

In regards to Anya, I don't think she was picky over who her clients were. A man could've left a woman because she was a batshit crazy bunny boiler, yet Anya would carry out the woman's vengeance on the man for daring to leave her. It's all a matter of perspective.
Anya was a vengence demon for 1000 years. Her body count is going to be higher simply because of that.
Plus all the others who were killed by her. In Into the Woods she boasts about making a guy combust and setting his whole village on fire 😳

Besides she choose to be a Vengence demon twice
 

vampmogs

Townie
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
99
Age
30
I'm with Buffy.

A lot of people accuse Buffy of "rushing into things" with Anya, or not giving "Anya a chance" for rehabilitation like she did Angel/Spike, or being hypocritical as it took her "much longer" to kill Angelus etc. However, this is all factually untrue. At the beginning of "Selfless" Buffy tells Xander that "there's definitely a vengeance vibe worth worrying about" which is evidence that Buffy was indeed expressing concern about Anya's work prior to the fraternity massacre and that she had been worrying about it. This is later confirmed by Buffy herself when she tells Xander that "the thought it might come to this has crossed [her] mind before." In fact, when she tells him it's "crossed [his] mind too", he doesn't even deny it. Furthermore, Buffy has known that Anya was a vengeance demon again since "Villains" and she had already expressed a distrust for Anya and her intentions in "Two to Go" when she asked Anya pointblank as to whether or not she could be trusted ("Anya I need to know what side of this you're gonna be on"). Since then, not only did Buffy let Anya operate both locally and globally as a vengeance demon again for at least 3 months, but she did nothing to stop Anya in "Beneath You" when it's revealed that Anya turned Ronnie into the monstrous worm demon. Ronnie killed an innocent dog and almost killed Xander and Nancy; not to mention nearly dying himself. Anya also expressed in this episode a clear and worrying disdain for humans and devoted loyalty to the vengeance cause.

So, no, Buffy didn't "rush into things" with Anya. Buffy allowed Anya free reign whilst her spells continued to escalate and the only reason Buffy did that is because Buffy was trying to avoid an inevitable confrontation. Buffy stakes vampires for much less.

I also think Buffy was pretty spot on in nailing the fundamental difference between Anya and Angel/Spike. Anya chose to become a demon twice. Whilst Angel and Spike were victims too "once upon a time" ("Damage".) Whilst both vampires are capable of some terrible atrocities, neither of them chose to be monsters knowingly and both of them were severely handicapped by the lack of a soul. Not only did Anya display a consistent lack of remorse for her victims throughout her time as a human but Anya clearly demonstrated in this episode that as a demon she was perfectly capable of not just remorse ("What have I done?") but also the ability to do the right thing ("I take it back"). Whilst this ultimately ends with Anya offering up her own life in exchange and doing the right thing, it also demonstrates that Anya committed her atrocities and bloodshed all the while having the capability to distinguish from right and wrong and choose a more moral and heroic path. That makes her crimes far worse than Angel or Spike's, IMO, and it makes her choice to be a demon again much worse too.

So I don't blame Buffy at all for believing that she needed to slay Anya. Anya just slaughtered 12 young men. Buffy would be horribly irresponsible if she didn't go after Anya. And leaving aside the fact that I don't think there's much difference between how Buffy behaved with Angel/us and how she behaved here with Anya, even if there were, is this a sign of hypocrisy on Buffy's behalf or just a sign of growth? Buffy learnt the hard way in Season 2 that her inability to kill Angelus cost a lot of lives (including Jenny's -- "I'm sorry I couldn't kill him for you. For her. When I had the chance...") and after "Passion" Buffy made a real, proactive effort to hunt down and stop Angelus even at the cost of her own health (she literally faints in "Killed By Death" because she's so sick and won't rest). It's not hypocrisy if Buffy has learnt from that tragedy and has vowed to stop Anya before history repeats itself and things escalate even further. In her eyes, her hesitance to stop Anya earlier, despite clearly expressing concern about Anya's activities earlier in the episode, just cost 12 young people their lives. I'm not so quick to accuse characters of being "hypocrites" just because they change their behaviour and learn from their behaviour 5 years after behaving differently.

IMO, Xander was being a hypocrite, albeit a very understandable one. Buffy was absolutely justified to throw the Angelus saga back in his face after his cold, ruthless and insensitive cheerleading of Angel's demise.
 
MissChristina
MissChristina
This is an amazing analysis. Completely agree!

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
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Messages
269
I'm with Buffy.

A lot of people accuse Buffy of "rushing into things" with Anya, or not giving "Anya a chance" for rehabilitation like she did Angel/Spike, or being hypocritical as it took her "much longer" to kill Angelus etc. However, this is all factually untrue. At the beginning of "Selfless" Buffy tells Xander that "there's definitely a vengeance vibe worth worrying about" which is evidence that Buffy was indeed expressing concern about Anya's work prior to the fraternity massacre and that she had been worrying about it. This is later confirmed by Buffy herself when she tells Xander that "the thought it might come to this has crossed [her] mind before." In fact, when she tells him it's "crossed [his] mind too", he doesn't even deny it. Furthermore, Buffy has known that Anya was a vengeance demon again since "Villains" and she had already expressed a distrust for Anya and her intentions in "Two to Go" when she asked Anya pointblank as to whether or not she could be trusted ("Anya I need to know what side of this you're gonna be on"). Since then, not only did Buffy let Anya operate both locally and globally as a vengeance demon again for at least 3 months, but she did nothing to stop Anya in "Beneath You" when it's revealed that Anya turned Ronnie into the monstrous worm demon. Ronnie killed an innocent dog and almost killed Xander and Nancy; not to mention nearly dying himself. Anya also expressed in this episode a clear and worrying disdain for humans and devoted loyalty to the vengeance cause.

So, no, Buffy didn't "rush into things" with Anya. Buffy allowed Anya free reign whilst her spells continued to escalate and the only reason Buffy did that is because Buffy was trying to avoid an inevitable confrontation. Buffy stakes vampires for much less.

I also think Buffy was pretty spot on in nailing the fundamental difference between Anya and Angel/Spike. Anya chose to become a demon twice. Whilst Angel and Spike were victims too "once upon a time" ("Damage".) Whilst both vampires are capable of some terrible atrocities, neither of them chose to be monsters knowingly and both of them were severely handicapped by the lack of a soul. Not only did Anya display a consistent lack of remorse for her victims throughout her time as a human but Anya clearly demonstrated in this episode that as a demon she was perfectly capable of not just remorse ("What have I done?") but also the ability to do the right thing ("I take it back"). Whilst this ultimately ends with Anya offering up her own life in exchange and doing the right thing, it also demonstrates that Anya committed her atrocities and bloodshed all the while having the capability to distinguish from right and wrong and choose a more moral and heroic path. That makes her crimes far worse than Angel or Spike's, IMO, and it makes her choice to be a demon again much worse too.

So I don't blame Buffy at all for believing that she needed to slay Anya. Anya just slaughtered 12 young men. Buffy would be horribly irresponsible if she didn't go after Anya. And leaving aside the fact that I don't think there's much difference between how Buffy behaved with Angel/us and how she behaved here with Anya, even if there were, is this a sign of hypocrisy on Buffy's behalf or just a sign of growth? Buffy learnt the hard way in Season 2 that her inability to kill Angelus cost a lot of lives (including Jenny's -- "I'm sorry I couldn't kill him for you. For her. When I had the chance...") and after "Passion" Buffy made a real, proactive effort to hunt down and stop Angelus even at the cost of her own health (she literally faints in "Killed By Death" because she's so sick and won't rest). It's not hypocrisy if Buffy has learnt from that tragedy and has vowed to stop Anya before history repeats itself and things escalate even further. In her eyes, her hesitance to stop Anya earlier, despite clearly expressing concern about Anya's activities earlier in the episode, just cost 12 young people their lives. I'm not so quick to accuse characters of being "hypocrites" just because they change their behaviour and learn from their behaviour 5 years after behaving differently.

IMO, Xander was being a hypocrite, albeit a very understandable one. Buffy was absolutely justified to throw the Angelus saga back in his face after his cold, ruthless and insensitive cheerleading of Angel's demise.
Totally agree but I still give a point to @Athene, maybe it would have been better to have Buffy warning/having an intervention with Anya after Beneath You, you know, as a courtesy. I very much doubt that it would have changed anything because Anya wasn't ready to understand that she was still hurting and grieving her lost engagement and not really wanting to be a vengeance demon again. But at least we could claim that she had a fair warning - although I totally see your point about Buffy mentioning the trust issue to Anya in the last episodes of S6.

As I said before, one of the things that I do like a lot of their confrontation is that Anya seems very grown up, she understands that this is Buffy's job and that she crossed the line. The whole episode is brilliant in my opinion, there's a lot of introspection from all the characters involved - even from Xander at the very end by letting go of Anya as she asks him to do.
 

thetopher

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Buffy's argument was more persuasive because she said it was about choice and that's the fundamental in this case. Anya had a bad day and so decided to return to the life of blood vengeance that she'd done for a thousand years previously. With a soul and everything.
It's also worth noting that Buffy and co didn't know for sure if Anya was killing and leaving bodies all over the place or not, she can travel all over the world dispatching vengeance and killing and they wouldn't have known either way. But 'Selfless' is the first concrete evidence since the worm-guy red flag in 'Beneath You' and so yeah, Buffy acts decisively because, if she'd had any sense, she'd had thought about this very real possibility many times before.

I just wished she'd shown the same hard-headed practicality with trigger-Spike; but I can't criticize 'Selfless' Buffy for her future idiocy so yeah, she's right here.

But then again nobody brings up the vengeance amulet that Anya's kind has (we know that Willow has to know about the 'power center' from Doppelgangland); its not even discussed. Poor writing.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Thanks for putting my feelings into words. I wanted to answer but couldn't think of a way of saying, in a manner that wasn't pointless, that there was so much stupidity to disentangle in this season that it was futile for me to decide

kalike123

Townie
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where it snows
The show is a wee little bit capricious when it comes to who can and cannot kill others. Willow murders - literally skins Warren alive! - and her big punishment is that she has to go to England, take a How To Not Be Evil 101 class and sit in a field, connecting to Mother Nature. Anya murders people, though - she must die.

So Xander has a point about how they treat their friends.

If she was going to fight the good fight, Buffy did have stop/kill Anya. She'd tried to broach this subject before, but Xander just refused to listen. He was in total denial where Anya was concerned.
 

katmobile

Scooby
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Messages
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Buffy's argument was more persuasive because she said it was about choice and that's the fundamental in this case. Anya had a bad day and so decided to return to the life of blood vengeance that she'd done for a thousand years previously. With a soul and everything.
It's also worth noting that Buffy and co didn't know for sure if Anya was killing and leaving bodies all over the place or not, she can travel all over the world dispatching vengeance and killing and they wouldn't have known either way. But 'Selfless' is the first concrete evidence since the worm-guy red flag in 'Beneath You' and so yeah, Buffy acts decisively because, if she'd had any sense, she'd had thought about this very real possibility many times before.

I just wished she'd shown the same hard-headed practicality with trigger-Spike; but I can't criticize 'Selfless' Buffy for her future idiocy so yeah, she's right here.

But then again nobody brings up the vengeance amulet that Anya's kind has (we know that Willow has to know about the 'power center' from Doppelgangland); its not even discussed. Poor writing.
Spike made a choice to atone by getting his soul however 'selfish' his reasons were and he wasn't killing if his own free will. Anya was - she was really bad at getting that distinction through her head too.
 

thetopher

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Spike made a choice to atone by getting his soul however 'selfish' his reasons were and he wasn't killing if his own free will.
So? Spike couldn't control his actions, was a massive liability and Buffy let him roam about freely. Where was her hardheaded decisiveness then? Nowhere, she spent months dithering because of feels (mainly guilt).
At least Anya could be reasoned with, trigger-Spike could not.

I agree that Spike was selfish returned to Sunnydale though.
 
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Black Thorn
So? Spike couldn't control his actions, was a massive liability and Buffy let him roam about freely. Where was her hardheaded decisiveness then?
I honestly did not understand why she did not keep him chained up until they were all certain that he wasn't controlled anymore. I thought what was worse though is that Spike himself did not insist, because I would have thought he would be terrified of hurting anyone else.

Anyway, back to the topic, I think Anya needed to be killed, she (like trigger-Spike) was a ticking time bomb. She clearly could not deal with human pain and they can't all be walking on eggshells around her so she doesn't become a demon yet. Spike's issue was easier to deal with in a way, he wasn't evil but he definitely should have been locked up somewhere until they were sure the trigger wouldn't activate anymore. Trigger-Spike wasn't a part of his personality, demon-Anya was, and therefore she could keep becoming a threat in the future.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Yes, just like Oz the werewolf! It's not his fault, they know that. The only reason I sympathize with Giles going behind Buffy's back was because Buffy was being an idiot (plot armor aside), and even Spike said he should be chained.

katmobile

Scooby
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So? Spike couldn't control his actions, was a massive liability and Buffy let him roam about freely. Where was her hardheaded decisiveness then? Nowhere, she spent months dithering because of feels (mainly guilt).
At least Anya could be reasoned with, trigger-Spike could not.

I agree that Spike was selfish returned to Sunnydale though.
He was only off the leash with her or he was chained up at first. He mostly wasn't roaming around on his own. It only happened because they needed him in the fight and he was still mostly around Buffy or chained up. Before the Anya situation Buffy didn't know he was killing.
It doesn't matter what I say though does it? I know that your mind's made up and that's it and anything else will just get a wrist slap from the mods.
I guess though who is and isn't worth saving is subjective and our judgement isn't clear so hypocrisy is inevitable but Buffy does her best. However I do think we're as guilty of it as fans as the characters in verse and all we can do is try to be objective. It's subjective to the success and effort that goes into that too.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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I agree that Spike was selfish returned to Sunnydale though.
Did Spike actively choose to return to Sunnydale though, or did he just kind of end up back there in his insanity induced state? We don't know how long the First had been on his case.

I thought what was worse though is that Spike himself did not insist, because I would have thought he would be terrified of hurting anyone else.
How many times can you insist before it's like smacking your head against a brick wall? Spike couldn't chain himself up and if Buffy steadfastly refused, there wasn't much he could do other than just hang around her in case something happened. Also sometimes prolonged treatment (for lack of a better word) can have a detrimental effect rather than be of benefit. Spike might be happy to be chained up at first but eventually he's going to want a little bit of freedom (eg be allowed to stretch his legs by walking around etc) otherwise he'd start getting agitated from the constant confinement. Kind of like how an addict trying to get clean will reach a point during withdrawal where they can't take it anymore and they will beg or try and escape for one last "hit" even though they know they need to get through the withdrawal to be clean.
 
one eyed chicklet
one eyed chicklet
I guess but it just didn't feel right where he was around a bunch of people who didn't have much strength, and when Buffy isn't around he could probably kill them all.
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It's also worth noting that Buffy and co didn't know for sure if Anya was killing and leaving bodies all over the place or not, she can travel all over the world dispatching vengeance and killing and they wouldn't have known either way. But 'Selfless' is the first concrete evidence since the worm-guy red flag in 'Beneath You' and so yeah, Buffy acts decisively because, if she'd had any sense, she'd had thought about this very real possibility many times before.
Buffy DOES tell Xander in Selfless that she has considered the possibility of having to fight (kill) Anya since the summer (after Anya became a vengeance demon again). But I agree with others that argue that Buffy could have approached the subject right after Beneath You, Anya proved that she was willing to become as dangerous as before; however, the subject doesn't come up again before Selfless.

So? Spike couldn't control his actions, was a massive liability and Buffy let him roam about freely. Where was her hardheaded decisiveness then? Nowhere, she spent months dithering because of feels (mainly guilt).
At least Anya could be reasoned with, trigger-Spike could not.

I agree that Spike was selfish returned to Sunnydale though.
Anya has free-will when killing and is in denial, she keeps trying to justify her actions: “she’s a vengeance-demon, she has a job to do, she won’t stand down and she’s willing to face Buffy.” Of course, we know how that goes on, Anya repents and takes back the killings by offering to sacrifice herself. Human-Anya is no longer a threat, Buffy let her go.

Spike doesn’t have free-will and as soon as he realizes that he’s killing, he asks Buffy to kill him, when she refuses, he asks for her help. Spike also remains chained most of the time, wants to be on a leash or with Buffy around when he’s not chained, and even offers to leave when he realizes that he’s still dangerous. But here there is a HUGE inconsistency in the writing. We go from Spike and Buffy being extra-cautious (episodes 8 to 14) to both being reckless within one or two episodes (episodes 15 to 17). After they remove the chip, they also remove the chains without much explanation besides “the trigger hasn’t been active for a while.” Of course, this is done because they needed an excuse to “remove” Spike’s trigger by having him confront Robin, create a conflict with Giles, set-up the roots of the mutiny, etc.

Probably, the most relevant question for me is: when does Buffy have a license to kill? We know that humans are off-limits (i.e. Warren and Willow, the specific case of Willow is mentioned in “Selfless.” Yet again, Buffy tried to kill Faith, however, Faith is human and a Slayer), and we also know that non-dangerous demons are left alone (i.e. Clem). So, is Buffy “allowed” to only slay demons with free-will who choose to harm people (and by harm, I mean kill, because Anya’s behavior in Beneath You is never addressed)? The topic of free-will is mentioned once more with Andrew. He’s atoning for his sins and complains that Spike doesn’t have to atone. Dawn responds Andrew had free-will, but Spike didn’t. However, I cannot recall any other instance where free-will is part of the assessment leading to the decision of killing a demon or not killing it.
 
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thrasherpix
thrasherpix
I'd probably go into essay mode on your last paragraph, but it's off topic. All I'll say is that Faith as a Slayer was still a supernatural threat that required special measures so I see her as a legite target when she's working with demons, etc

thetopher

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He was only off the leash with her or he was chained up at first. He mostly wasn't roaming around on his own. It only happened because they needed him in the fight and he was still mostly around Buffy or chained up.
He's around Buffy for a couple of episodes and then he's allowed to roam pretty much freely for episodes at a time; he goes drinking with Anya like its a regular thing, Buffy leaves him to go on a date with Principal Wood, she even goes back in time leaving Spike all alone with a house full of vulnerable girls...

So no, Buffy is hardly the greatest prison guard of all time. In fact she's astonishingly bad.

It doesn't matter what I say though does it? I know that your mind's made up and that's it
Well I'm willing to discuss things on a discussion board and I do change my mind from time to time. For example I used to quite like Spike once upon a time.

I guess though who is and isn't worth saving is subjective and our judgement isn't clear so hypocrisy is inevitable but Buffy does her best. However I do think we're as guilty of it as fans as the characters in verse and all we can do is try to be objective.
You know what isn't subjective? Anya's victims got to live and Spike's didn't. Spike should've been treated as much more of a threat than Anya was right up until 'LMPTM' but he wasn't because Buffy was all 'conflicted'.

Buffy DOES tell Xander in Selfless that she has considered the possibility of having to fight (kill) Anya since the summer (after Anya became a vengeance demon again).
It's still a massive problem when Buffy doesn't face the choices that she SHOULD face before its too late. If Bufyf had confronted Anya before the frathouse of blood then things might've not been so dire. If Bufyf hadn't let Spike roam freely (or if he'd shown an once of regard for other people's safety) then the group might not have fractured so badly later on.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Buffy leaves him to go on a date with Principal Wood, she even goes back in time leaving Spike all alone with a house full of vulnerable girls...
I thought Spike was out busy killing the demon to throw into the portal to get Buffy back? Or are you talking the few minutes after Buffy left and the minutes before Buffy returned?

Also given how annoying some of the potentials were eg Rona, Kennedy, the one with the dodgy "English" accent; from an audience perspective, would it really have been that bad if Spike had been triggered and thinned the herd a little, especially those first two?

Well I'm willing to discuss things on a discussion board and I do change my mind from time to time. For example I used to quite like Spike once upon a time.
I still like Spike but I definitely prefer him in the earlier seasons when he was still evil and competent and not Buffy's lapdog.

You know what isn't subjective? Anya's victims got to live and Spike's didn't. Spike should've been treated as much more of a threat than Anya was right up until 'LMPTM' but he wasn't because Buffy was all 'conflicted'.
Some could argue that "death is a mercy". Anya inflicted cruel punishments on her victims that they had to endure and live through. She turned that guy into a giant worm, turned Olaf into a troll, cursed the guy that eventually came back and ruined her wedding. She sent Cordy to the Wishverse where she ended up getting killed and ANya did not give a damn that the world had gone to hell.

On a side note, do you think vengeance demons also punish those making the wishes in a "be careful what you wish for" kind of way? Cordy died into the wishverse after wishing Buffy never came to Sunnydale. The woman was being chased by her giant worm boyfriend, Halfrek trapped everyone in the house including Dawn, etc.

It's still a massive problem when Buffy doesn't face the choices that she SHOULD face before its too late.
Buffy wasn't facing the choices she should face as far back as Season 5. Giles was the one who had to kill Ben to stop Glory because Buffy wouldn't. Buffy refused to sacrifice Dawn, even though it would put the world at risk. Season 7 isn't the first time that Buffy refuses to consider viable options, even if they're set as a last resort.

then the group might not have fractured so badly later on.
The group was always going to fracture badly, Spike had barely any influence on that. The scoobies may have had some concerns over Buffy's judgement, but it is Kennedy and Wood who lead the mutiny. Wood is pissed that Buffy won't let him kill Spike whilst Kennedy is attempting a powerplay. The vineyard went very badly and everyone is still a little freaked out by it which is why Buffy's suggestion of going back (despite ultimately being proved right) didn't go down well. Kennedy then took the opportunity, in Buffy's moment of weakness when the scoobies weren't all rushing to support her, to jump on Buffy and suggest a change of leadership to Faith. Kennedy openly admits that she thought she'd get a bigger say in things with Faith in charge. When Xander says that maybe everyone shouldn't get a say because everyone is trying to talk at once, you can hear Kennedy suggest that only the potentials that have been there longest (ie her because she's the only one of the original potentials left) should get a say in things. Kennedy has been undermining Buffy's authority from the start. She even has a go at Willow for siding with Buffy or looking like she's about to. If Kennedy was taken out of the equation then the mutiny wouldn't have happened.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
I thought Spike was out busy killing the demon to throw into the portal to get Buffy back?
Buffy left everyone in the house with a trigger-vamp without any plan as to how she would return to the present- that was all on Willow- and Spike could've been triggered at any point during her absense, demon-hunting or not.

Also given how annoying some of the potentials were eg Rona, Kennedy, the one with the dodgy "English" accent; from an audience perspective, would it really have been that bad if Spike had been triggered and thinned the herd a little, especially those first two?
Actually I was thinking about Willow. Spike hulk-smashes on The First's say so and takes Willow by surprise, snaps her neck when Buffy isn't there, The First wins.
Buffy never even considers this, too busy lecturing.

Buffy wasn't facing the choices she should face as far back as Season 5. Giles was the one who had to kill Ben to stop Glory because Buffy wouldn't. Buffy refused to sacrifice Dawn, even though it would put the world at risk. Season 7 isn't the first time that Buffy refuses to consider viable options, even if they're set as a last resort.
I understand Buffy not being able to kill Ben- who she sees as an innocent (she doesn't know he summoned the Quellor demon to kill all those folks) or her baby sister, neither of them is an active threat. They are passive threats because of what they are. Spike is an active threat that Buffy fails to secure on multiple occasions and never even mentions the idea of searching for a cure for his affliction.

The group was always going to fracture badly, Spike had barely any influence on that.
Spike was the sole reason there was a split between Buffy and Giles, and her reliance on the vamp meant she could push everyone else away and rely on 'her strongest warrior' and act like her friends don't matter. Spike's attitude enabled Buffy's worst impulses.

The Potentials were always gonna be on her case but it wasn't just them, it was everyone.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Actually I was thinking about Willow. Spike hulk-smashes on The First's say so and takes Willow by surprise, snaps her neck when Buffy isn't there, The First wins.
Buffy never even considers this, too busy lecturing.
In which case, not only does Buffy look bad, but it also turns the First into more of an idiot. It had so many opportunities to take out the scoobies and the potentials, yet decided to helpfully dig the scythe out for Buffy instead.

The writers really oversold the First as a threat and it failed to live up to the hype. It was really just trolling everybody.
 
thetopher
thetopher
The problem with S7 in general; Buffy and the Big Bad try to out-stupid each other until the very end because plot needs to happen.

nightshade

Your grandfather is a cat
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Mar 13, 2009
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England
Black Thorn
Can we get back to the topic, which isn't Spike and the First!
 
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