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Was Cordy always meant to be possessed?

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by Buffyverse Fan, Jun 21, 2014.

  1. Buffyverse Fan

    Buffyverse Fan * The 28th *

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    Sineya
    So we know Jasmine was a last minute addition to the mythos to accommodate Charisma's pregnancy and Glenn Quinn's death. They've said that Cordy was originally meant to be the big fight for Angel in the finale.

    So my question is, do you think Joss had always planned on Cordy being possessed when he got this ball rolling?

    Considering they've also said Doyle was intended as the Big Bad of S4, is it possible he would've just convinced the real Cordy into forcing peace on earth?

    In some ways it would seem plausible. Lilah admitted that plan would've defeated W&H. And of Cordy's eight seasons, the only person she might be more loyal to than Angel would definitely be Doyle.
     
  2. SiegePerilous02

    SiegePerilous02 Potential

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    I'm kind of glad they didn't go this route, if true. It seems like a needless assassination of Doyle's character, putting plot/theme before characterization. I don't see why Joss was so upset by Charisma's pregnancy if he was just planning something like this anyway. It seems like Quinn's death had a bigger part to play in screwing up the works, as they needed to create a whole new evil mastermind with Jasmine. Either way, Cordy would have been mind controlled, and her pregnancy allowed them to work Jasmine into the plot.

    The season's arc may have just been really shaky on a conceptual level, and Carpenter was just used as a scapegoat.
     
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  3. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

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    Black Thorn
    I doubt Cordy was always meant to be possessed as such. Mainly because when she actually is possessed it is handled so ham-handedly that it doesn't seem plotted out or even properly thought through.

    Had the intention been there all along it ought to have been easier to tweak the circumstances to her possession and still make it worthwhile storywise.

    As it is it feels like a Hail Mary after plans (due to CC's pregnancy) abruptly changed and didn't allow for the original plot to continue.
     
  4. Cordy_Chase

    Cordy_Chase Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

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    Sineya
    It's been said that the possession was always intended much the same just without Jasmine. The entity would have remained unidentified and spent it's entire role acting through Cordy rather than eventually manifesting into its own being. In the end, the only way to defeat it would have been for Angel to kill the most important person in his life alongside Connor, the dearest friend he'd ever had and the woman he'd just realized he was in love with.
    A hundred times more tragic circumstances but with more dignity and no doubt far better and hopefully more tasteful development.

    Doyle, the way I'd heard it was supposed to have served possessed Cordy which would have led to his death, a concept I feel fits perfectly. Considering his somewhat irrational desperation to win her heart and judging by his strong accusation of betrayal when he thought Angel had slept with Cordy in 'Room with a Vu', he likely would have ended up in a rivalry with Angel for her over the course of those three years. Add in his confidence issues and insecurity and I can see him being pushed over the edge enough to blind him to the possession.

    There is, however, no official source of either of these stories so we must remember to take them with a grain of salt.
    It's thought provoking though. How would Angelus' storyline have differed and Connor's? Would Faith have still fit in?

    Looking at the in-story explanation for Jasmine, recently I've been wondering for how long Cordy had been marked as her vessel? She'd said that she'd marked Connor as her "father" before his conception, arranged it even (and presumably arranged the fast-forwarding of his growth via Quor-Teth), supposedly arranged a number of each character's significant past events as her stepping stones. None of that made much sense, but the one factor never even discussed is at what point Cordy was chosen, was it at her conception, her birth, when she'd inherited the visions, and why her? She'd proven to be strong of body and mind of course, but I feel like there has to be more to it than that.
     
    laianna: Thank you for explaining the original plan... Makes a lot of sense and I hadn't heard it before!
    ChaseRules: That would have really been a great storyline . Too bad it didn't happen :(
  5. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Would this mean bringing Quinn back? Or never having him die? Never having him die would have changed way too much, unless Quinn takes Connor.
     
  6. Cordy_Chase

    Cordy_Chase Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

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    Sineya
    Doyle was meant to be kept rather than killed in the first season, but Quinn's drug addiction was becoming a problem on set so they were forced to fire him.
    That's a sensible notion of it possibly having been Doyle to kidnap Connor. Since he was allegedly intended to be Jordy's (The new mesh name I came up with to refer to Jasmine possessed Cordy what do you think?) minion his character would have to start deteriorating at right around that point. That would have made the arc much darker I believe since Doyle was more dear to Angel than Wesley which me likey! Mwhahaha. XD
     
    bespangeled: Jordy! Far better than Cormine!
  7. laianna

    laianna Potential

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    Wait so this sounds like the entire series of Angel was wayyy more planned out than you'd be led to believe in season 1!
     
  8. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Yea it's called. Terrible retconning! I would much more have preferred Jasmine to be an opportunist. When Cordy becomes a higher being, Jasmine seizes the moment and then decides to use Cordy's body to go to Earth. I don't like this whole, she's the reason for Connor and Skip and other bull crap. Plus its the reason for one of my most hated/grossed out scenes, of "Cordy" and Connor having sex.
     
    laianna: You're definitely not alone on your most hated scene :/
    Sternbeeere: I also like Jasmine to be an opportunist, rather than a planner. Plus, this suits her more, she does not seem to be that powerful to me.
    MarieVampSlayer, redruM and VisionBoy like this.
  9. VisionBoy

    VisionBoy Scooby

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    Sineya
    When they had to change certain major things and were in such a mad rush to make season 4 work, I can't fathom how they thought the "this has been happening since season 1" stuff was a good idea. They clearly struggled trying to make sense of it even within the one season, let alone making it out to be a thing spanning the entire series thus far!
     
    MarieVampSlayer: Haha yeah it was pretty clear it wasn't planned out by the writers!
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  10. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    I agree. The fact that they had to do a memory erase thing at the end of the season for every one (except Angel) shows to me that it was all just a terrible idea, and the writers finally realized it. To bad it doesn't wipe my memory. lol.
     
  11. Cordy_Chase

    Cordy_Chase Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

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    Sineya
    Ha, nevermind the sex, every time they even KISSED I had to look away! XP

    Agreed, their attempt in 'Inside Out' to connect Jasmine to the significant events of the past seasons such as Fred's entrapment in Pylea and the death of Gunn's sister to justify that they were being set up to host her for the entire duration of the series was so half-assed and sloppy that there might as well have been a line pointing out that it was forced. I get the feeling it didn't make much sense even to the writers.

    This is a sensible notion though I believe it's evident that it was always felt to be a terrible idea, just consider the fit Joss was throwing over Charisma's getting pregnant. It radiates strongly in the whole Jasmine storyline.

    I believe they took the erasing too far however, as they'd also erased practically all memory that Cordy ever existed. Something that I can not condone nor will ever forgive. I found that just as disrespectful as Skip and Jasmine violating her mind and body.
     
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  12. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    I believe it was Sajjan that organized the entire Cordy arc, and Skip that told them - which means the retcon includes Sahjan as one of Jasmines tools

    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2015, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2015 ---
    I always wondered what the memory wipe included. Hmm, maybe that's why Lilah had to go - I doubt you could wipe her memory and she would tell Wesley just to get to him. Though I would prefer that to the way the season went.
     
  13. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    I think Sahjan's thing was only and always about Connor, because he was the one that was prohecized to kill Sahjan. So does that mean that Connor was going to be born no matter what or that Jasmine was always going have a hand in creating Connor? It's all very confusing.

    Yea what really happened to Lilah? I guess recruiting Angel was her last mission and W&H didn't need her anymore.
     
  14. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

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    Black Thorn
    Or was Sahjan created to bring Holtz forward in time? Otherwise no real chance to kill Connor, is there - he was unable to move after all.
     
  15. redruM

    redruM Potential

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    This thread is interesting, I had no idea that Doyle was supposed to be a villain. Were they planning on bringing him back? Or was the entire idea scrapped when they kicked Quinn off the show?
     
  16. Atsfan1

    Atsfan1 Townie

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    lol. We all did.
    It's better to understand that that was all just made up by jasmine to make them all think she was bigger than she was.
    I don't think they erased cordelia.
     
  17. Cordy_Chase

    Cordy_Chase Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

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    Sineya
    Hmm, that's an intriguing thought. She is, after all, the ultimate deciever.

    I must disagree with this; the fact that Sanjan's focus was to be rid of one of Jasmine's most necessary tools prevents him from being able to ally with her. Recall that Connor was prophesized to kill him and that he'd tried to dodge that by writing the phony 'the father will kill the son' prophecy to mindscrew A.I (which ended up just being Wesley alone)?
    Though it could fit that Jasmine had used him to bring forth Holtz since she needed him to speed up Connor's growth.
     
  18. caitaintdead

    caitaintdead caiters gonna cait

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    Black Thorn
    Yep, when I watch it now I always think that Jasmine was bluffing about what she had power over. Jasmine was the ultimate narcissist so it fits in to her character that she would think she held power over everyone.
     
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  19. Sternbeeere

    Sternbeeere Glory┬┤s sane(?) groupie

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    Yes, that is also what I was thinking. I guess she rather used her connections like Skip and maybe some others, as well as directly manipulated people like the Beast and Angel, to achieve what she wants. Thus I think she might have used certain events to do what she wanted to do, rather than making them happen. Similarly to what Cordelia did to the slot machine, when Angel was addicted to gaming, only on a bigger scale.
     
  20. Cordy_Chase

    Cordy_Chase Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

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    Sineya
    Some new information has recently come to my attention that challenges my initial response here, it's possible that Cordy was not intended to be possessed.
    I've been told another version of the original storyline which had Cordy herself becoming essentially an inverted Dark Willow form of the Jasmine persona. She would have gotten a vision while in the higher plane of humanity destroying itself and have returned mad with power from the need to save it. The season finale would have been a climactic battle between her and Angel. That's all the detail I was given.

    Another tidbit I've learned and my informant (the same one who gave me the above information) supposedly got it from an interview with Tim Minear and David Fury is that in the Jasmine storyline Cordy was intended to wake from her coma and defeat Jasmine herself but Charisma was unable to accommodate due to being in the advanced stages of her pregnancy and nearing her due date.

    Given the latter and the fact Charisma had no idea that she wasn't going to be in the 5th season until the press release, possession or not it's highly unlikely that Cordy was never meant to survive the 4th season.
     
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