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Question Was Fred's soul really destroyed to make way for Illyria?

RiverandFaith

Five by Five
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
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19
Age
19
We all know that demons lie, I don't think it matters how old they are. In the case of Fred/Illyria, someone had said that there was no way to bring Fred back after Illyria because Fred's soul was destroyed. I don't know if I believe that because of just how good Illyria is at being Fred. In "The Girl in Question" when the Burkles visit, Illyria does pretend to be Fred as she deems it more convenient, then in the last episode when Wesley is dying and Illyria 'lies to him' like he asks, it feels like it really is Fred comforting him. I realize Illyria can see all of Fred's life, her memories, etc, but I'm not sure if I'm completely sold that Illyria is that good. Granted I haven't been able to get my hands on anything past the tv shows, so please keep that in mind. In this case, if it answers my question, I don't mind spoilers.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
1,894
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39
Season 6 was rumored to see the return of Fred, as well as the comics showing her return after "Magic changed" so my guess would be, no. The Old Ones talk a big game, but their magicks are poorly understood. Illyria is best understood as a disease with an unknown cure.
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,145
Age
33
I think Illyria must have a soul, though I guess that could be her own soul, as demons often have souls.

Everything else about Fred seems to be intact. Her body, memories and personality can all be called forth.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,530
Age
49
The guy doesn't say destroyed he says consumed and everyone knows you are what you eat. Seriously it's like Fred is broken into bits and those bits influence Ilyria no matter if she's aware of it or not.
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,912
Location
Manchester
The guy doesn't say destroyed he says consumed and everyone knows you are what you eat. Seriously it's like Fred is broken into bits and those bits influence Ilyria no matter if she's aware of it or not.
Good call. We (sometimes "it") "consume" people and ideas all the time - it's a common metaphor*. We live in a "consumer" society. Love (or hate) consumes people; people are "fodder" for the capitalist machine; people are "chewed up and spat out"; we "absorb" or "internalise" ideas or find them "difficult to swallow" etc. etc.

In the case of Frillyria, as you suggest (and to extend the metaphor), Illyria regurgitates Fred from time to time. What she's consumed has effected her internally and this manifests itself on occasions. The difficulty is - I think - separating ourselves from that which has consumed us (or what we've consumed). Where does our true identity lie? In ourselves or in the stuff we've consumed, the ideas we've internalised (TBH, I think this question was a theme of BtVS 6/7 and probably runs throughout the comics)? So no - I don't think Fred's soul was destroyed. I think it's a case of the "soul" meaning different things at different times. Personally, I don't think it would require a leap of faith for them to bring Fred back, to untangle F&I - S12 kinda addresses this. I do, however, think you'd find that each had had a more permanent effect on the other.

*Sidebar: Jane Espenson was George Lakoff's PhD student at Berkeley. Lakoff credits her in his critically acclaimed books about metaphor and the way they structure our lives.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
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33
What happens to Fred in AtS reminds me of what Dr Saunders is afraid of will happen in Dollhouse. She is afraid that if she reads about the girl who gave her body up to the Dollhouse, then this knowledge will kill her current person. It wouldn't erase it, but it could come to come to overpower it, leading to the death of her current sense of self.

When she is overtaken by Clyde 2.0. it is different, because he seemingly ereases Dr Saunders completely. There is no synthesis of Clyde and Saunders.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
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Messages
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Age
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P.S. My final statement on this topic is this. I don't know how or when, but I know in the end, the Astronauts will win.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
Depends on the battle arena. The cavemen might have an advantage.
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