• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Was Jasmine really a poor big bad?

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
6,926
Location
Canada
Sineya
Jasmine had all the trappings of the Anti-Christ. She was attractive. She would right long-standing wrongs. She consumed people but in a lesser quantity than the wars of the world. She would accrete power all to herself. For an avowed atheist, Joss had a very good representation of a true Anti-Christ, probably better than most Christians (who should know better). She was one of the most dangerous Big Bads because everyone (at least everyone else) aided and abetted her every move.

And let's face it - having the BMW driver stop cheerfully for a pedestrian? That takes some of the darkest mojo right there.
 

slayer730

Potential
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
187
Age
40
I wanted to start another conversation in here instead of making an entirely new thread and ask how did you guys feel about her weaknesses? Her own blood and the creature from the other dimension with her name. Did you guys like them?
 

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,278
Age
33
I thought her weakness was actually pretty cool. There are many cultures who believe in the power of names, it’s pretty ancient mythology. There are even beliefs that if someone has your name, they have the power to curse you. Jasmines real name , and her blood ultimately being her undoing I thought worked really well
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
14,509
Age
40
Location
London, UK
I probably prefer Jasmine as a big bad, but that is mostly because of how down I am on the whole evil Cordy plot and the stuff with Connor. Torres did as much with the part as she could. I still like the idea of the plot more than how it played out.
 

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
1,515
Age
32
Location
Québec, Canada
Sineya
I actually feel strongly for this as I just finished re-watching S4. Jasmine alone was a great Big Bad. She almost achieved her goals and has gone farther than any others BB in Angel because all the AI team fell in love with him. If it wasn't for Fred's discovery she would have ruled and destroyed the world when she got bored. She also had interesting philosophical arguments backing her up (kill a few to save many, the importance of free will). Even Angel can't be sure he is doing the right thing for the humanity by defeating her. I think this idea and Gina Torres makes Jasmine amazing.

However, everything before that was botched and horrible. EvilCody, Connelia, EvilSkip that was a snooze fest. And I can't go with the idea that everything was planned in order to bring Jasmine to the world. I prefer to think that Jasmine was exasgerating and that she was only a opportunist who saw a way out when Cordelia was sent to the higher power.
 

slayer730

Potential
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
187
Age
40
However, everything before that was botched and horrible. EvilCody, Connelia, EvilSkip that was a snooze fest. And I can't go with the idea that everything was planned in order to bring Jasmine to the world. I prefer to think that Jasmine was exasgerating and that she was only a opportunist who saw a way out when Cordelia was sent to the higher power.
I'd like to believe she was exaggerating but the writers should have done a better job of illustrating that because thats a horrible idea to have lingering as cannon considering they tore down so many things to justify it.

I actually like the idea of Skip being evil, but once again it something I feel they didn't have planned until last minute. I've seen some people take issue with the fact that Cordy chose to ascend because it felt out of character. I think a nice alternative would have been to write it in a way that made viewers think she chose it only to reveal in a flashback in the following season that she didn't and Skip forced her ascension instead.
 

Mr Trick

Scooby
Joined
Jan 9, 2015
Messages
14,509
Age
40
Location
London, UK
That's the thing for me too. I liked Gina's performance and there was a good idea behind Jasmine. I just think a lot of it was poorly written or rushed. A bit like Dark Willow at the end of Buffy S6 I think Jasmine should have gotten more episodes.
 

Vampfox

Townie
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Messages
1
Age
33
I like Jasmine. She was a different kind of villain. She thought that she was saving the world, and doing the right thing.
 

Ethan Reigns

Scooby
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
6,926
Location
Canada
Sineya
I like Jasmine. She was a different kind of villain. She thought that she was saving the world, and doing the right thing.
I like Jasmine too - but I have no illusions that someone who consumes people and robs them of the ability to make a considered judgement would have thought she was saving the world or doing the right thing. There is legitimate criticism for Willow making Tara forget and argument by manipulating her brain and that wasn't the first experience for Tara - Glory had robbed her of her mind as well. Similarly, Faith gets accused of rape by deception when she swaps bodies with Buffy as well as putting Buffy in danger from the Watchers' Council, so I don't give Jasmine any credit for eliminating war and convincing people that she was some sort of Angel of God when she was a cannibal using mind control.
 

crazysoulless

Scooby
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
1,099
Location
Las Vegas, US
I hated the portrayal, I don't think she sold it, but I don't think she wanted to. You and I will have to agree to disagree. I know you like this arc. I think the idea of her playing a bad guy is an interesting one... but the way it was done? Not so much.

Having a beloved character murder people because they lost their marbles or their soul? That you can come back from.

Sleeping with your own kid? Nope. Sleeping with your lover's kid? Nope. That you don't come back from. People don't forgive sexual betrayal in a beloved character easily... No character even hints at 'pedophile' and survives it. Connor's age is never stated, but it doesn't matter... he's young, he's naive, she had him in her arms as a baby not long before this... and he's her MAN'S child.
Darla is Connor's mother. Cordelia is not biologically or legally related to Connor. Cordelia wasn't there when Connor was born. Cordelia didn't live at the Hyperion. Cordelia wasn't there the last few weeks when he was taken. Cordelia wasn't there the summer he was part of AI. Cordelia was dating Groo for a large portion of the time baby Connor was there.

Angel was not her lover or her man. They never dated, never kissed (outside of possession, trying to transfer the visions), and never had sex. Cordelia didn't even realize until Tomorrow the s3 finale that she had romantic feelings for Angel. And then she spent the next 3-4 months dangling in the sky waiting for rescue, came back with amnesia, and then was possessed.

Connor was already looking at colleges in Home so he was late teens. Angel started dating Buffy when she was 16. Wesley & Doyle fell for Cordelia when she was 18. Anya started dating Xander when he was 18. Riley was in grad school when he started dating 18 year old Buffy.

Cordelia was only 21-22 in s4.
 
GreyWalker1958
GreyWalker1958
Given how long in Q'rtoth, Conner and Holtz may have been there for 19 yrs til Connor came through the portal

Smickers

Townie
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Messages
10
Age
32
So I just finished my season 4 Angel re-watch and here and my thoughts on the topic:

Season 4 Angel was originally set to be the best season of the series yet.

By the end of season 3, all our favourite heroes had progress through their character arcs significantly, bar potentially Lorne. The end of season 3 left on a peak in terms of character development and the start of season 4 did not disappoint in holding up to that quality of character writing. Complications in romantic relationships, Wesleys darkest hours, Cordelia's higher purpose and Angel's newfound fatherhood. I feel like the season was the best material the tv series had right up to and including Angelus' return. What followed was unorganised, rushed and lazy writing (although we the circumstances around this).

Cordelia should have been left with the PtB.

Sure, we all love the spunky, 'I say whats on my mind' Cordelia, but let's face it, by the end of season 3, her arc had rounded out nicely. She did her part of the good fight, she went through her own trials and tribulations and she came out the other end a hero. She deserved her position (even though it felt a tad quick) in the higher plane. I was happy for her. When she came back, it seemed her entire legacy was ruined. Maybe the writers had a great arc planned for her before they had to improvise, who knows, but in the end she should have stayed with the PtB.

Jasmine was a great big bad.

I originally hated this season because of Cordelia/Jasmine when I was young, but with more mature eyes, I really enjoyed Jasmines presence on screen. The heroes of the series always talk about fighting the good fight, even though they know it will never end. Jasmine showed a glimpse of what reality could be like without evil (when she wasn't feeding ofc) and it was fresh and interesting. How she came to be was rushed and felt intrusive to an extent however, although this is explained away by the circumstances off-screen. I feel if she had additional episodes to flesh out her arrival she would have done the show justice.

The end of the hotel and the start of W&H was a good thing.

As much as we all love to get nostalgic about our favourite things, the hotel needed to go. It had been around for three seasons, the same length of time Buffy remained in high school. Why does this matter? People need to move on with their lives to bigger and better (or worse) things for people to relate to the characters. I felt that the hotel was causing stagnation in the show towards the end of season 3. The majority of scenes were shot here, yet we see no guests for the majority of the show. This makes the hotel seem lifeless, empty and without purpose (bar the one-off episode). Moving to W&H at the end of the season was needed to progress the characters to a new stage of development in the same way Buffy goes to college or becomes a pseudo-mother.
 

DagonSphere

Potential
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Messages
234
Age
33
As others have said, evilCordy was bad, Jasmine herself was very effective.

This may be unpopular, but I feel a lot of the negative reception to this whole arc has a lot to do with Charisma”s acting . She was terrible as an “evil puppet master”. This was the first time she was given a real opportunity to show off some acting chops and really break out of her character and she failed miserably. She couldn’t pull it off, it was over the top and really silly. She does best in my opinion with less serious material, it was a breath of fresh air when she returned to form in Your Welcome.

Gina Torres OTH I think did a much better job, she brought sympathy and ambiguity to the role.
Honestly, I wouldn't blame Charisma's acting or even her pregnancy for that matter, her character and her storyline was poorly written that season. What made Cordelia so much fun was that she brought a smile and humor to the show, but the Cordelia in season four is absolutely devoid of humor. First, she's amnesiac, then she behaves wildly out of character and sleeps with Angel's son, then she is continuously paired with Connor, who sucks the energy out of any room by just being consistently unpleasant, then she suddenly turns evil with poor dialogue and then she's shoved into a coma. And I think it was also to Charisma's disadvantage that they revealed rather late that Cordelia was evil, because she was not supposed to be openly evil for half the season and then when they finally revealed it, she was so pregnant that they had to have her shot with an arrow to explain why she is suddenly bed-ridden and missing from the action.

Illyria meanwhile worked, because that was just a very well written, very well developed character, marvellously played by Amy Acker.
 

NeddaSai

Potential
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
230
I liked Jasmine, I'll echo most people here and say it was the EvilCordy and Cordy/Conner that made me dislike the season.

Honestly though?, I still don't understand why they couldn't keep the storyline they wanted originally even with Charisma being pregnant! Slouchy clothes and big handbags have always worked before, we'll play along, who cares?.. fight scenes? stunt doubles! it's not like we can't tell which scenes are the actors and which are the stunt doubles already..
 

LilahFan

Townie
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
47
Age
34
The show honestly relied a bit too much on the romance stuff if you ask me. I like some of the twists they put together like Wes/Lilah and Gunn/Gwen but this one with Connor and Cordy never made any sense to me. It's the main reason I can't enjoy the later seasons as much as I did the first few.

Connors story and character in general really didn't interest me that much but I did like that one bar scene where he and Angel fight side by side. The show would have been much better if we got more scenes like that, and if he absolutely has to be bad at some point I'd prefer they'd continue showing interest in Faith. Who I think would have served better staying on Angel rather than returning to Buffy.
 

Cohen

Warrior
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
1,637
Location
Neptune, California
Rewatching season 4 right now with the intention of examining Cordelia/Jasmine. Just finished “Apocalypse Nowish,” and it seems to me that at the beginning of the episode Jasmine is struggling with the takeover. I think that’s why she was huddled at Connor’s place. She was trying to process this new experience and body. The first true, fulll-Jasmine I saw was her conversation with Angel telling him she saw all those he hurt and felt his joy and that’s why she can’t be with him, setting up the Connor sex at the end of the episode. This was so out of character, I can’t believe I didn’t see this before. When Cordy was in the higher plane, she kept calling to Angel, she helped save Angel from the Casino in Vegas. She knew who he was wholly, and still loved him. In this moment between Jordy and Angel, it is 100% Jasmine. I can’t wait to continue to watch Jordy evolve.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,346
Age
48
As others have said, evilCordy was bad, Jasmine herself was very effective.

This may be unpopular, but I feel a lot of the negative reception to this whole arc has a lot to do with Charisma”s acting . She was terrible as an “evil puppet master”. This was the first time she was given a real opportunity to show off some acting chops and really break out of her character and she failed miserably. She couldn’t pull it off, it was over the top and really silly. She does best in my opinion with less serious material, it was a breath of fresh air when she returned to form in Your Welcome.

Gina Torres OTH I think did a much better job, she brought sympathy and ambiguity to the role.
I think some of it was Charisma not being told what was going on and so not knowing how to play things plus she may not have been too happy about what she was asked to do or feeling the best - everyone talks about the nausea of early pregnancy but not the extreme tiredness you get to a greater or lesser degree. I agree that comedy is more her wheelhouse than evil though.
 
Top Bottom