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Was Jasmine really a poor big bad?

katmobile

Scooby
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Jun 17, 2018
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Jasmine had all the trappings of the Anti-Christ. She was attractive. She would right long-standing wrongs. She consumed people but in a lesser quantity than the wars of the world. She would accrete power all to herself. For an avowed atheist, Joss had a very good representation of a true Anti-Christ, probably better than most Christians (who should know better). She was one of the most dangerous Big Bads because everyone (at least everyone else) aided and abetted her every move.

And let's face it - having the BMW driver stop cheerfully for a pedestrian? That takes some of the darkest mojo right there.
I thought she was really scary but I think seeing people be emotionally manipulated gets to me.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
547
Black Thorn
Not particularity, when she was Cordy, she only really focused on causing a rift between Angel and Connor and then birthing herself.
I also think a big issue was that the character still felt like Cordy - but just a bit off, and the Connor thing was just gross. It's really hard to tell when Cordy started to be Jasmine. Playing the undercover big bad didn't suit Charisma Carpenter's acting either and she works much better as the funny character. I think if it was clear to the audience from the beginning that is was not Cordy and she had done some more morally questionable things besides the weird borderline-incest, Jasmine might have been better.
 

Cohen

Warrior
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Not particularity, when she was Cordy, she only really focused on causing a rift between Angel and Connor and then birthing herself.
I also think a big issue was that the character still felt like Cordy - but just a bit off, and the Connor thing was just gross. It's really hard to tell when Cordy started to be Jasmine. Playing the undercover big bad didn't suit Charisma Carpenter's acting either and she works much better as the funny character. I think if it was clear to the audience from the beginning that is was not Cordy and she had done some more morally questionable things besides the weird borderline-incest, Jasmine might have been better.
But then, the whole point of the first part of the season is watching Cordy make these out of character decisions, not understanding why she is doing it. And then it being revealed that it wasn’t Cordy making those decisions at all—it was another entity entirely, which was possessing her. Post-STB Cordy is a completely different person immediately starting from the “wake up”. I’m trying to decide if the “vision” was really even a vision at all, or if it was a plan being set in motion, and presented to the audience as a vision. I think Cordy becomes disconnected with the PTB after her reappearance in “The House Always Wins”.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Black Thorn
But then, the whole point of the first part of the season is watching Cordy make these out of character decisions, not understanding why she is doing it. And then it being revealed that it wasn’t Cordy making those decisions at all—it was another entity entirely, which was possessing her. Post-STB Cordy is a completely different person immediately starting from the “wake up”. I’m trying to decide if the “vision” was really even a vision at all, or if it was a plan being set in motion, and presented to the audience as a vision. I think Cordy becomes disconnected with the PTB after her reappearance in “The House Always Wins”.
I get that we were meant to be wondering why she was doing it, but it was too subtle it kin of felt like Buffy being slightly out of character in season 6. It just made me not like Cordelia, because it's so difficult to see when it stopped being her. What I mean is it would have been better if her out-of-character actions were clearer not just grooming Connor which was just weird and just no longer being fun, if it was going to be subtle, it had to seem more than just out of character for us. As viewers we see a lot of out of character moments when it was just the character being changed a bit to fit the episode, I felt like it needed to be clearer to the viewers and other characters that something was really up with her, not just 'Cordy is dealing with seeing all of Angelus'. It felt like Jasmine didn't really have much of her own personality either - Cordelia's character had changed so much over the seasons, I just kind of felt 'oh so we are doing this, again?', she was rather boring. It's hard to explain, it just really didn't sit well with me.
 

Cohen

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I would challenge you to rewatch. I’m rewatching with an intent to see how Cordy’s Character is changed, and it’s quite clear “Apocalypse, Nowish” is NOT Cordy. I am currently in the middle of “Habeas Corpses” and her interactions in this episode is also clearly not Cordy. It’s there. Its subtle for the first-time viewer, but it’s quite obvious.
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
62
Cordy is the big issue of that season. The writers didn't know what to do with her anymore, then charisma became pregnant and the writers really didn't know what to do with her.

Jasmine had a lot of potential but was executed badly. Had there been no link between Jas and Cordy, i think the jasmine story line could have been a lot better.
 

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

Evil hand issues💀
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
6,400
Black Thorn
Jasmine had a lot of potential but was executed badly. Had there been no link between Jas and Cordy, i think the jasmine story line could have been a lot better.
Absolutely agree with this. If Jasmine had just appeared out of nowhere, without "assistance" from Cordy, it would have been sooooo much better. We could've avoided the gross "Cordy"/Connor hump fest, first of all. But also, I would've been more accepting of Jasmine as a legitimate big bad. (Though it must be said, Gina Torres did a spectacular job despite the crappy circumstances)
 

telperion66

Potential
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Mar 7, 2018
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They should have let Angel and Cordy get together for the rest of the season after Angel killed the beast in his fantasy with the sword. Then they could have gone back to a happy place in the season, and started with a great foundation for the rest of season four. The whole thing leading to Jasmine and her appearance tainted the whole season massively and was a disaster.

Whether they couldn't do this due to Charisma's pregnancy, we'll never know.

The season up to that point was gripping and engaging, with some truly memorable episodes.

While the plot twist of Angel's soul being removed by the shaman was exciting and unexpected, the season went downhill after the first couple of Angelus episodes.
 

katmobile

Scooby
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Messages
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They should have let Angel and Cordy get together for the rest of the season after Angel killed the beast in his fantasy with the sword. Then they could have gone back to a happy place in the season, and started with a great foundation for the rest of season four. The whole thing leading to Jasmine and her appearance tainted the whole season massively and was a disaster.

Whether they couldn't do this due to Charisma's pregnancy, we'll never know.

The season up to that point was gripping and engaging, with some truly memorable episodes.

While the plot twist of Angel's soul being removed by the shaman was exciting and unexpected, the season went downhill after the first couple of Angelus episodes.
It had Faith and Willow which was cool.
 

Cohen

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They should have scrapped evil Cordy altogether and just hid her pregnancy like with other shows. But I am enjoying this rewatch examining Jordy, and watching her make completely out of character decisions. I love how they had Cordy be at the hotel while they dealt with the Beast during Habeas Corpses. They really did a good job of making Cordy conveniently absent when the beast was doing things.
 

spikenbuffy

"The big bad is back, and you will aaaggggg"
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I would challenge you to rewatch. I’m rewatching with an intent to see how Cordy’s Character is changed, and it’s quite clear “Apocalypse, Nowish” is NOT Cordy. I am currently in the middle of “Habeas Corpses” and her interactions in this episode is also clearly not Cordy. It’s there. Its subtle for the first-time viewer, but it’s quite obvious.
Cordelia's hair also becomes black and darker as the season goes on.
 
Cohen
Cohen
I noticed that! Like the apocalypse is happening... but she has time to darken her hair? Definitely Jasmine! 😂😂
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