Was Season 10 a "Great" Season?

[The Ferg]

Apparently everyone's done talking about S10, but I just now got around to reading it in it's entirety, so I'm posting another thread, whether anyone responds or not!

Just kind of an open-ended question. How does S10 rank when compared to the other comic seasons, as well as the show? Does it accomplish what it set out to accomplish? Can it compare to other season in regards to season opener, finale, and big bad?

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Season 10 of BTVS ranks pretty low for me. I actually skimmed some parts of it to be fair because I did get rather bored after a while. Even the Old Demons crossover was a bit bland. What I noticed pretty quickly was that the comic seemed to lose some of its edge. I'm not sure if they were trying to make it more family friendly? No cussing, no sex, Spike wasn't smoking, nothing all too edgy. I find myself remembering more of s10 than I do of s9 which I honestly forget about in terms of the plot so I guess that's a plus for the s10 column. I'll admit some of what I dislike is the focus on spuffy and some of the writing related to that (some of which I have recently gone back and read and I'm still scratching my head about).

But it's honestly not just that. I liked s11 enough... and it had a healthy serving of spuffy stuff. But at least the movement of the story felt interesting and engaging and the stakes felt high even if the pay off was pretty disappointing.

My feeling on s10 was that there is nothing interesting about every character being whole and healthy and well adjusted, in therapy or having interventions and being these strangely forgiving happy carebears. I don't need all of their lives to be falling apart but in order to keep the reader engaged you need to see significant personal struggles and some serious obstacles. Big difficult choices, character deaths, personal journeys, big decisions. I feel like you could tell CG's mandate was, go write a story but don't rock the boat until Joss is ready to come man the ship.

So to answer the topic question, I would not call s10 great. But I wouldn't call it terrible, that is reserved for Angel s11. (I didn't read the Giles mini)

 

[Mrs Gordo]

ooooooooooh but I should mention that the moment that Buffy and Giles reunite in the first arc is a wonderful moment and one of my favorite moments in the comics. It hit me in the feels. Not many things do in the comics.

 

[sosa lola]

I loved it for the Xander story. I thought it was very interesting.

 

[The Bronze]

ooooooooooh but I should mention that the moment that Buffy and Giles reunite in the first arc is a wonderful moment and one of my favorite moments in the comics. It hit me in the feels. Not many things do in the comics.

This was awesome. The first issue was great and felt like things were getting back on track. There were a few more decent bits in the middle, a lot of average stuff and the last few issues sucked horribly.

I need to reread to have a more fleshed out opinion I think.

 

[gnarl]

I really liked season 10, I thought D'hoffryn was a really good big bad, charming, deceptive and his motives where clear and understandable. In my opinion he certainly held up next to the TV Big Bads.
It was nicely illustrated with a really good use of colour that reminded me a bit of Herge's Tintin (one of my problematic faves)
It had a coherent plot line which is more than you can say for some of the Buffy/Angel TV seasons.
It's been a while since I read it so I can't say to much for the dialogue and characterisation but I don't remember feeling that people where acting irrationally or out of character and I remember being tickled by some of the jokes. There where quite a few character/romance driven issues but I didn't mind that too much because because it fitted in with the cadence of the story, the Scoobies being lulled into a sense of security by D'hoffryn. I guess it wasn't too high on the Angst-ometer but there was certainly enough to go round, Xander's depression, Giles's tween frustrations, Spike's monster mind control, Andrew's emergence from the closet.

My main problem with it was that there was some inconsistent and shaky world building when it came to the history of Vampires, but as a Buffy fan, I feel like that is par for the course.

 

[thetopher]

Season 10 starts well and then flags around 'Return To Sunnydale' which has some truly awful dialogue and ret-conning regarding Andrew and Spuffy respectively. It picks up a bit after that and becomes...okayish (basically readable but ultimately forgettable) with 'Love Dares You' right on through to the (better) 'Old Demons' crossover.

Then it becomes a terrible mess; the lame badguys, the scale, the Scoobies 'infighting' drama, Buffy herself becomes this horrible caricature of what she used to be (even from her S8 days) and the end arc is basically rubbish with what happens to D'Hoffryn.
At least S9 had that decent, action-paced ending.
So certainly not great, not, good, not awful, just meh. The bits that stay with me are the bad parts to be honest, and there are a lot of those.

The only good stuff that sticks with me is probably to do with Xander's arc to be honest, and how he eventually re-connects with Dawn.

 

[The Ferg]

Well I'm sincerely surprised by the dislike of Own It. I'll agree that plot threads felt a little haphazard leading into the finale, but I think it worked really well. Dawn's new powers are just silly, but I really enjoyed her and Xander's trek through demon dimensions.

Season 10 starts well and then flags around 'Return To Sunnydale' which has some truly awful dialogue and ret-conning regarding Andrew and Spuffy respectively. It picks up a bit after that and becomes...okayish (basically readable but ultimately forgettable) with 'Love Dares You' right on through to the (better) 'Old Demons' crossover.

*cough*it was a team-up, not a crossover*cough*
Also, what do you mean by retconning Andrew and Spuffy? And what didn't you like about what happens to D'Hoffryn?

 

[The Ferg]

doublepost. My bad.

 

[thetopher]

Well I'm sincerely surprised by the dislike of Own It. I'll agree that plot threads felt a little haphazard leading into the finale, but I think it worked really well.

I thought the character interactions were terrible and the resolution lazy. Buffy again looked petty, mean and self-entitled the way she treated everyone else.

I did like Dawn and Xander exploring her powers pan-dimetionally, but that was a sub-plot for me, not part of the build-up to the finale.

*cough*it was a team-up, not a crossover*cough*

If Faith were there then it would've been a team-up but no, she wasn't. This was like Buffy, Oz or Willow popping over to Angel like on the show, which is called a crossover.

Also, what do you mean by retconning Andrew and Spuffy?

Andrew complains that the group never really includes him and makes him feel guilty despite that fact that he's screwed up almost as many times as Willow without the benefit of being a close personal friend. In the end Buffy ends up apologizing to him for being so hard on him.

Urgh, the guy who tried to drive Buffy insane, egged Warren on into beating her to death, murdered Jonathan in cold blood, contributed to Simone going evil by being a laughable 'Watcher', creating an incredibly dangerous demon that he quickly lost control of in S8, stole Buffy's body for WEEKS so Buffy thought she might be pregnant in S9 (trauma plus a complete violation of trust for very little reason that Andrew never apologizes for) and then this latest stunt where he was going to drag Tara out of heaven and put her through what Buffy went through simply because HE felt guilty?
Oh, and then he made evil-Jonathan to cap it off.

F*** this guy and his whining about 'not ever being let into the group'; he's lucky he's even alive.

Spuffy: 'Spike, you had so much good inside you it didn't need a soul to come out.'
I mean, I hope that's ret-conning because otherwise Spike is incredibly culpable for that 100+ years of slaughter and mayhem.

And what didn't you like about what happens to D'Hoffryn?

The only Big Bad I can remeber who was turned into a complete joke by the end of the season; a complete non-threat and came close to retroactively ruining the character. Hard to see any menace in his performance on the show tbh.

 

[The Bronze]

And what didn't you like about what happens to D'Hoffryn?

I went back to our old discussion threads and remembered why the ending was so awful. The reveal of D'Hoffryn was brilliant, I was excited that we'd have a great big bad. Unfortunately within a couple of issues they ruined it. By the end he was a brain dead corporate weasel if memory serves. There so much rubbish about Anya and her relationship to him. Not to mention we had a fake Anya, fake Jonathan and a dead but not dead Xander.

 

[The Ferg]

I thought the character interactions were terrible and the resolution lazy. Buffy again looked petty, mean and self-entitled the way she treated everyone else.

Yea, she was being a real bitca, but I felt that it was in character. I think she was holding a lot of feelings inside the entire season, and refusing to "own it," and it just kept building and building until the "breakup" wherein she realized that she just has to let it all go and be an adult about her various problems (mainly taking responsibility for her newfound power, trusting her friends, and working on her relationship). Not trying to argue, just telling you how I saw it.

If Faith were there then it would've been a team-up but no, she wasn't. This was like Buffy, Oz or Willow popping over to Angel like on the show, which is called a crossover.

I was partly joking, but I would actually disagree... sort of. You're not wrong, but when it comes to comics I think the term 'crossover' pretty specifically denotes a story that weaves in and out of two or more series. I suppose you could call Archaeus' "rise to power" a sort of crossover, but the only thing that happened in Old Demons was Angel popping in for a team-up. If Spider-Man goes and hangs out with the X-Men for an issue, it's not a crossover. It only becomes a crossover when the story moves from one series to the next. At least that's how I see it.

Andrew complains that the group never really includes him and makes him feel guilty despite that fact that he's screwed up almost as many times as Willow without the benefit of being a close personal friend. In the end Buffy ends up apologizing to him for being so hard on him.

Urgh, the guy who tried to drive Buffy insane, egged Warren on into beating her to death, murdered Jonathan in cold blood, contributed to Simone going evil by being a laughable 'Watcher', creating an incredibly dangerous demon that he quickly lost control of in S8, stole Buffy's body for WEEKS so Buffy thought she might be pregnant in S9 (trauma plus a complete violation of trust for very little reason that Andrew never apologizes for) and then this latest stunt where he was going to drag Tara out of heaven and put her through what Buffy went through simply because HE felt guilty?
Oh, and then he made evil-Jonathan to cap it off.

F*** this guy and his whining about 'not ever being let into the group'; he's lucky he's even alive.

Oh ok, I get that. Hw comes off like a dangerous sociopath that should not ever be trusted. If it wasn't for some stuff surrounding Andrew's idiocy I think I would be just as pissed.

[QuoteSpuffy: 'Spike, you had so much good inside you it didn't need a soul to come out.'
I mean, I hope that's ret-conning because otherwise Spike is incredibly culpable for that 100+ years of slaughter and mayhem.[/quote]
I don't think it's retconning. I think theres a valid argument to be made that Spike was slowly becoming more "good" throughout the TV show. I mean, hell, soulless Spike made the conscious decision to get a soul. I can't imagine any other demon ever doing that.

The only Big Bad I can remeber who was turned into a complete joke by the end of the season; a complete non-threat and came close to retroactively ruining the character. Hard to see any menace in his performance on the show tbh.

Hmm... I guess I found him threatening enough. I honestly had no idea how they were going to beat him until it actually happened. I also liked the twist of D'Hoffryn taking over, behind the scenes, while Buffy was only worried about the Soul Glutton and co.

 

[thetopher]

Yea, she was being a real bitca, but I felt that it was in character. I think she was holding a lot of feelings inside the entire season, and refusing to "own it," and it just kept building and building until the "breakup" wherein she realized that she just has to let it all go and be an adult about her various problems (mainly taking responsibility for her newfound power, trusting her friends, and working on her relationship).

I think its how she took it out on her friends, who were also going through stuff, and how the narrative seemed to painting it like Buffy had some remote sort-of point

I was partly joking, but I would actually disagree... sort of. You're not wrong, but when it comes to comics I think the term 'crossover' pretty specifically denotes a story that weaves in and out of two or more series.

I judge it in terms of the show, not comic-books, so to me its no different than Buffy coming over to AtS to fight that ninja demon in S1. YVMY I guess.

Oh ok, I get that. Hw comes off like a dangerous sociopath that should not ever be trusted. If it wasn't for some stuff surrounding Andrew's idiocy I think I would be just as pissed.

I wouldn't have minded except for the apology (also the fact that Andrew never gets held to account for the 'mistakes' he constantly makes). Overall I understand that its an over reaction, but the guy just bugs me, plus he takes up way too much air-time with his little subplots. I wanted the guy to buzz off.

I don't think it's retconning. I think theres a valid argument to be made that Spike was slowly becoming more "good" throughout the TV show.

Or just doing good things for a selfish reason? That's also entirely valid and doesn't break the lore of the show 'no soul equals evil'.
Spike was forced to change and good things happened to do with his specific mentality, but it didn't make him good otherwise why did he sexually assault Buffy?
I certainly don't hold souled-Spike responsible for that, otherwise how could I ever want these two as a couple? Why would anyone?

Maybe you're right and its not really a ret-con, but its a message from the show that I fundamentally disagree with since its kinda...destroys the Buffyverse if you think vampires can just 'be good' sometimes for no apparent reason. Anyway, way OT.

I tend to think of this as Buffy saying something mind-fumblingly stupid, a non-uncommon occurrence in the comics.

But I think this is where my hopes for Buffy S10 being anywhere near as GOOD as Angel & Faith S9 finally ended. Obviously that season had a lot of good ideas/writng behind it that had little or nothing to do with Gage.
Hence bitterness that comes from disappointment. If I didn't care- at at this point I still did- then I wouldn't dislike it so much.

I mean, hell, soulless Spike made the conscious decision to get a soul. I can't imagine any other demon ever doing that.

Why not? Other demons also willingly commit suicide for things such as love or honor; we've seen it happen on both shows. Spike ain't unique he's just rare.

Examples: The Three in S1 and James in Angel S3 'Heartthrob'.

Hmm... I guess I found him threatening enough. I honestly had no idea how they were going to beat him until it actually happened. I also liked the twist of D'Hoffryn taking over, behind the scenes

I liked the bait and switch takeover- that was smart writing- which made the ending such a letdown; the depiction of his dimension, everyone smirking and rolling their eyes as he begged for his life. So. Lame.

 

[The Ferg]

I think its how she took it out on her friends, who were also going through stuff, and how the narrative seemed to painting it like Buffy had some remote sort-of point

I guess I agree that Buffy was being s***ty, but I think it was a temporary thing and she got over it and apologized.

I judge it in terms of the show, not comic-books, so to me its no different than Buffy coming over to AtS to fight that ninja demon in S1. YVMY I guess.

Well that makes sense.

I wouldn't have minded except for the apology (also the fact that Andrew never gets held to account for the 'mistakes' he constantly makes). Overall I understand that its an over reaction, but the guy just bugs me, plus he takes up way too much air-time with his little subplots. I wanted the guy to buzz off.

I get that. If it wasn't for his coming out arc and choosing the right side at the end, I would probably be in the same boat.

Or just doing good things for a selfish reason? That's also entirely valid and doesn't break the lore of the show 'no soul equals evil'.
Spike was forced to change and good things happened to do with his specific mentality, but it didn't make him good otherwise why did he sexually assault Buffy?
I certainly don't hold souled-Spike responsible for that, otherwise how could I ever want these two as a couple? Why would anyone?

Well I think Spike might have slowly became good over time. I don't think he could be considered "good" until he decided to get a soul. And although I don't think he was "fully good" until that moment, he was still showing signs of "goodness" beforehand, although obviously he still tended to slip up seeing as he doesn't have a fully developed conscience.
Also, I think Spike is "special" (for lack of a better word). Maybe it has to do with Archaeus's influence on his bloodline, but he's always been strangely emotional and empathic for a vampire. Angel, Dru, and obviously the Master were special in their own way too.

But I think this is where my hopes for Buffy S10 being anywhere near as GOOD as Angel & Faith S9 finally ended. Obviously that season had a lot of good ideas/writng behind it that had little or nothing to do with Gage.

I think I realized that BS10 was nowhere near the ball park of A&FS9 pretty immediately after the first arc, but I think you're being a little harsh. I think Gage was just a little out of his depth with Buffy, whereas A&F had a fairly simple story with a solid outline laid out beforehand. Maybe that's what you're getting at, but I don't think there's any reason to take away Gage's accomplishments. If nothing else, Gage for sure wrote 99-100% of the dialogue and structured the plot to include amazing character growth and emotional payoffs.

Why not? Other demons also willingly commit suicide for things such as love or honor; we've seen it happen on both shows. Spike ain't unique he's just rare.

Examples: The Three in S1 and James in Angel S3 'Heartthrob'.

Some demons, even without a soul, just want to live life, whereas the vast majority of vampires have an innate bloodlust the precludes any other emotion. In that regard, I would say Spike is extremely rare.
Your examples might have had different motivations than most vampires, but they were always able to kill and be generally "evil." Spike specifically shunned evil for love.

I liked the bait and switch takeover- that was smart writing- which made the ending such a letdown; the depiction of his dimension, everyone smirking and rolling their eyes as he begged for his life. So. Lame.

...I thought that was kind of funny... Just showing that D'Hoffryn might have been in charge, but he had no understanding of emotion and relationships.

 

[thetopher]

Well I think Spike might have slowly became good over time. I don't think he could be considered "good" until he decided to get a soul. And although I don't think he was "fully good" until that moment, he was still showing signs of "goodness" beforehand, although obviously he still tended to slip up seeing as he doesn't have a fully developed conscience.

There is a difference between 'doing good things' and being good though. I don't really want to get into this because I wanna start a thread but I find that people romanticize Spike's actions when it suits them and fall back on 'his has no soul' at other times them, and you can't have it both ways.
Either he isn't capable of an intrinsically good act or he is (for some never explained reason) and therefore is culpable for a lot of his 120+ years of mayhem and murder; after all didn't he do a lot of the fun stuff out of his love for Drusilla, his eternal paramour?
Love makes you do the wacky, indeed.

I think I realized that BS10 was nowhere near the ball park of A&FS9 pretty immediately after the first arc, but I think you're being a little harsh. I think Gage was just a little out of his depth with Buffy

Out of his depth- yeah I guess- and I am being harsh, not only because of the quality of the stories but because of the stories that he chose to tell. I found them rather pedestrian tbh.
After S9 I expected better than what we got.

amazing character growth and emotional payoffs.

For some of the characters. I think Xander's in the most successful but other characters- Buffy for example- don't even have a character arc to speak of. I actually think she countinues to regress in terms of a character.

Spike specifically shunned evil for love.

I disagree. On the whole he modified his evil for love (he had to).
I mean, what was his S6 arc if not showing that- even in love- he was still evil. He hurt Buffy and degraded her even though he undoubtably loved her, also he was The Doctor- doing evil, and also couldn't accept Buffy breaking up with him so he tried (and thankfully failed, but came very close) to do something despicable.

 

[katmobile]

Which he then did something to change which is pretty rare. A souless entity is never going to do anything for entirely selfless reasons the fact that he could stretch to partly selfless and I do believe that does say a lot. The bad thing is because he didn't understand why she said no her morality and also she said move on and got pissed when he did. Despite what she said Anya was never her friend Anya was a bitch to her in season seven but she was right about that