• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Was Spike almost raping Buffy really necessary?

BuffyBot22

Scooby
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
917
Age
26
Location
US
The issue is how the writers chose to write Spike. They wrote him as more ambiguous regarding his morality. It was very cut and dry that Angelus= evil/not same person as Angel. Angel=good/not same person as Angelus. Which is why the audience is so quick to forgive his murder of Jenny.
Since Spike is written with more moral ambiguity while soulless, it makes all of his actions while not soulled worse since it seems he has more of an understanding of right and wrong, good and bad. This makes his actions more of a choice. And spike pre-soul and post-soul are not that different personality wise.
IMO it was the writer's fault in trying to make Spike more humanized to keep him on as a regular but still not giving him a soul.
If Angelus had attempted to rape Buffy, I wonder if the audience's reaction would have been different since Angelus and Angel are portrayed as basically two different entities in one body.

Either way, I think the AR was too much to come back from even if we are going to consider him completely evil (even though this is not how he has been portrayed for the past 3 seasons). Even if Buffy could separate that Spike was evil then and good now, it does not mean it would be something she would be able to get past. This is a big part because it did happen directly to her and not someone else. Even if she can forgive him, it does not mean she can forget and move on with being intimate with him in any form. I think that is another place the writer's messed up. If they wanted Buffy/Spike to progress romantically in s7, then the AR should have never happened. If they wanted to just use the AR as what drives Spike to get a soul and be a better man- then I guess that is okay, but I mean this is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Spike the Reformed Vampire. Pretty big arc for a character that should have been more minor like Angel was when he was on the show.

So I would have preferred something else been the driving force for Spike to get a soul.

In my head canon when Spike left to give the "bitch" what she deserves, he wasn't actually seeking a soul, he was seeking to take out his chip so he could go full on evil but he somehow got a soul placed in him instead. This would actually make much more sense for an evil being to go do.
 

AngelBuffy

Townie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
45
Age
30
The issue is how the writers chose to write Spike. They wrote him as more ambiguous regarding his morality. It was very cut and dry that Angelus= evil/not same person as Angel. Angel=good/not same person as Angelus. Which is why the audience is so quick to forgive his murder of Jenny.
Since Spike is written with more moral ambiguity while soulless, it makes all of his actions while not soulled worse since it seems he has more of an understanding of right and wrong, good and bad. This makes his actions more of a choice. And spike pre-soul and post-soul are not that different personality wise.
IMO it was the writer's fault in trying to make Spike more humanized to keep him on as a regular but still not giving him a soul.
If Angelus had attempted to rape Buffy, I wonder if the audience's reaction would have been different since Angelus and Angel are portrayed as basically two different entities in one body.

Either way, I think the AR was too much to come back from even if we are going to consider him completely evil (even though this is not how he has been portrayed for the past 3 seasons). Even if Buffy could separate that Spike was evil then and good now, it does not mean it would be something she would be able to get past. This is a big part because it did happen directly to her and not someone else. Even if she can forgive him, it does not mean she can forget and move on with being intimate with him in any form. I think that is another place the writer's messed up. If they wanted Buffy/Spike to progress romantically in s7, then the AR should have never happened. If they wanted to just use the AR as what drives Spike to get a soul and be a better man- then I guess that is okay, but I mean this is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Spike the Reformed Vampire. Pretty big arc for a character that should have been more minor like Angel was when he was on the show.

So I would have preferred something else been the driving force for Spike to get a soul.

In my head canon when Spike left to give the "bitch" what she deserves, he wasn't actually seeking a soul, he was seeking to take out his chip so he could go full on evil but he somehow got a soul placed in him instead. This would actually make much more sense for an evil being to go do.

the highlight part is the truth.

Realistically Spike should have been killed of by season 4 since it was clear he could still be dangerous with the chip but due to the character's popularity he had to become more bizarrely humanised which created a lot of story problems for the character, the writers tried to have their cake and eat it too with spike unlike Angel or even Faith.

If dawn is the worst retcon in the buffyverse, spike is close second. a lot of the things about the character and lore of buffy had to be rewritten just to accommodate why spike is still alive, even the soul thing, makes no sense because of the rules that was set up first with angel on how souls worked. Also spike getting a soul was a crop out because he is still pretty much the same, so unlike Angel/Angelus the stakes are less with Spike.

This is also why i have always preferred angel to spike. angel was a well thought out character with more substance to his characterisation, spike is miore of a wish fuflfilment character due to popularity with female fans who love to adore bad boy types.
 

SpikeRocks

Townie
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
81
Age
31
This is also why i have always preferred angel to spike. angel was a well thought out character with more substance to his characterisation, spike is miore of a wish fuflfilment character due to popularity with female fans who love to adore bad boy types.
😄 😄 I'm the complete opposite (funny how that goes with people 😉). Angel is a female wish-fulfillment character, very poorly thought-out and characterized, but manages to get somewhat better in ATS. Spike's character is way more evolved and has a far better arc. Both Angel and Spike were retconned (that happens often to adjust for better/superior writing and storytelling, where writing and concepts previously had been lacking). Regarding this, I'm aligned with the person who conceived of the characters, wrote them, and fleshed them out:

“I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me. Actually, I’m a Spike/Angel shipper. Completely re-write the equation.” --Joss Whedon
 

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,013
Age
38
The issue is how the writers chose to write Spike. They wrote him as more ambiguous regarding his morality. It was very cut and dry that Angelus= evil/not same person as Angel. Angel=good/not same person as Angelus. Which is why the audience is so quick to forgive his murder of Jenny.
Since Spike is written with more moral ambiguity while soulless, it makes all of his actions while not soulled worse since it seems he has more of an understanding of right and wrong, good and bad. This makes his actions more of a choice. And spike pre-soul and post-soul are not that different personality wise.
IMO it was the writer's fault in trying to make Spike more humanized to keep him on as a regular but still not giving him a soul.
If Angelus had attempted to rape Buffy, I wonder if the audience's reaction would have been different since Angelus and Angel are portrayed as basically two different entities in one body.

Either way, I think the AR was too much to come back from even if we are going to consider him completely evil (even though this is not how he has been portrayed for the past 3 seasons). Even if Buffy could separate that Spike was evil then and good now, it does not mean it would be something she would be able to get past. This is a big part because it did happen directly to her and not someone else. Even if she can forgive him, it does not mean she can forget and move on with being intimate with him in any form. I think that is another place the writer's messed up. If they wanted Buffy/Spike to progress romantically in s7, then the AR should have never happened. If they wanted to just use the AR as what drives Spike to get a soul and be a better man- then I guess that is okay, but I mean this is called Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not Spike the Reformed Vampire. Pretty big arc for a character that should have been more minor like Angel was when he was on the show.

So I would have preferred something else been the driving force for Spike to get a soul.

In my head canon when Spike left to give the "bitch" what she deserves, he wasn't actually seeking a soul, he was seeking to take out his chip so he could go full on evil but he somehow got a soul placed in him instead. This would actually make much more sense for an evil being to go do.
As shown on Ats Angel and Angelus are not so different "Darla Iv killed men you've seen it"
After executing SWAT team leader "what happened to mercy ? You've just seen the last of it"
Angelus also talks about raping people in S4 and in S4 says he raped Holtz wife
 
S
SpikeRocks
There's indeed a lot of retconning of Angel on ATS to show how "Angel" and "Angelus" are the same entity, simply one with soul/conscience and one without. Some fans have a hard time letting go of the first "soul" concept. The name thing doesn't help

BuffyBot22

Scooby
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
917
Age
26
Location
US
As shown on Ats Angel and Angelus are not so different "Darla Iv killed men you've seen it"
After executing SWAT team leader "what happened to mercy ? You've just seen the last of it"
Angelus also talks about raping people in S4 and in S4 says he raped Holtz wife
I think it's still pretty clear that Angelus and Angel are very different. Angelus lacks all morals while Angel is guilt-ridden by his moral compass even if he does slip up at times because he is still a vampire just one with a soul.
Yes Angelus raped people. I never said he didn't.
 

AngelBuffy

Townie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
45
Age
30
😄 😄 I'm the complete opposite (funny how that goes with people 😉). Angel is a female wish-fulfillment character, very poorly thought-out and characterized, but manages to get somewhat better in ATS. Spike's character is way more evolved and has a far better arc. Both Angel and Spike were retconned (that happens often to adjust for better/superior writing and storytelling, where writing and concepts previously had been lacking). Regarding this, I'm aligned with the person who conceived of the characters, wrote them, and fleshed them out:

“I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me. Actually, I’m a Spike/Angel shipper. Completely re-write the equation.” --Joss Whedon


Sorry but that is not objectivity true, if you know or understand good writing.


Lets look at the facts of the writing.

Spike was more of a wish fulfilment. the prove is in season 7, where many fans complained that he took over the show and many characters like Giles, and Dawn were assassinated just to make spike look good.

Spike is also more of a wish fulfilment because he unlike angel does not seem to bear any real convincing consequences for his past sins, that is a wish fulfilment character. best example is spike still wearing Nikki Woods Jacket after Robin confronted him? that is cool right? imagine angel walking around with jenny belongings in front of giles. unlike spike, angel showed remorse for everything he did as angelus, spike remose only seems to be about raping buffy, everyone else was just a game, he won. that is wish fulfilment writing when consensuses are flexible. A character like Spike can never help rehabilitate faith like Angel did because he does not care about anyone except his obsession:buffy, that is a wish fulfilment character. Wish fufliment characters can be selective of when they show remorse. spike is that character, Angel isn't.

Sex also prove Spike is a wish fulfilment character. many people dream of a person to sleep with with no consequences or ties, just for pleasure, its a wish fulfilment. wheras sex with angel deals with things in a more realistic metaphor than many young women go through about their boyfriend turning into jerks after sex.

Angel also offers a realism that is hard but very important. that it is possible for a boy and girl to being in love without having sex. something not many women in the real world can say they have. seeing how their boyfriends pressures them to have sex or will break up with their girlfriend for not having sex with him angel and buffy may never have had sex again post Surprise and ignoring I will remember you, but the love was still expressed in many ways. which is something that is rare today because sex has to be part of the equation at all times, Infact this the trope of wish uliment bad boys characters like Spike and Chuck Bass from Gossip girl. they all first usually lore the good girls with Sex. its a tired trope.

The idea that buffy and spike had better superior writing is ridiclous. To say angel was poolry thought out destroys what made buffy great, it is of fact season 2 and 3 are the best and most acclimated buffy seasons and that was mostly because of angel's arc. season 6 and 7 are seen as the worst buffy seasons and those are the spuffy seasons.

Centric buffy and angel episodes like becoming 1 and 2, innocence, passion, amends, the prom are considered not just the best buffy episode but some of the best tv writing of all time.

you can have your own opinion as a buffy and spike shipper but when it comes to artistry, buffy and spike are not even close . they have more haters than angel and buffy or even angel and cordy and there is a reason why. we have a new buffy and spike in fiction, again driven by girl obsessing over bad boys. it is called Kylo and Rey from star wars and its the same kind of story telling as spuffy, even star wars fans find it annoying kylo and rey will never be han and leia any more than spike and buffy will ever comes close to angel and buffy.


its not even that I am an angel and buffy shipper, its more of me appreciating well written executed romances that had a real purpose.
 
Last edited:

Puppet

Actual size.
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
6,509
Age
31
Location
Denmark
Black Thorn
Sorry but that is not objectivity true, if you know or understand good writing.
That is extremely offensive and very much not true. Just because you think Spuffy and Spike is bad writing, doesn't make it so.

Spike is (IMO) not wish fulfillment at all; unless, of course, you think that people actually wish to be in mutually abusive and destructive relationships?

Do you know what good writing is? Not making Spike an exact carbon copy of Angel - so Spike doesn't feel guilt or remorse the same way Angel does? Well thank the Lord for small favors! Repeating a storyline with a new character was risky enough when they chose to make him another souled vampire, but taking it any further than that would've just made things worse.

I'm glad you appreciate the Bangel/Angel writing, really, that's great; but that does not in anyway mean that it makes it the best written thing on the show or that it's better written than Spuffy/Spike; it just means that you think so.

Someone recently said (can't remember who, won't be quoting it) that they felt like Spuffy was constantly done on other shows while Bangel had originality - I find it the complete opposite. Doesn't mean I'm right or that the person who said that was right, nobody is an expert on this, not even the creators themselves.
 

AngelBuffy

Townie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
45
Age
30
That is extremely offensive and very much not true. Just because you think Spuffy and Spike is bad writing, doesn't make it so.

Spike is (IMO) not wish fulfillment at all; unless, of course, you think that people actually wish to be in mutually abusive and destructive relationships?

Do you know what good writing is? Not making Spike an exact carbon copy of Angel - so Spike doesn't feel guilt or remorse the same way Angel does? Well thank the Lord for small favors! Repeating a storyline with a new character was risky enough when they chose to make him another souled vampire, but taking it any further than that would've just made things worse.

I'm glad you appreciate the Bangel/Angel writing, really, that's great; but that does not in anyway mean that it makes it the best written thing on the show or that it's better written than Spuffy/Spike; it just means that you think so.

Someone recently said (can't remember who, won't be quoting it) that they felt like Spuffy was constantly done on other shows while Bangel had originality - I find it the complete opposite. Doesn't mean I'm right or that the person who said that was right, nobody is an expert on this, not even the creators themselves.

I think there are some factual measurement to judge if a writing is good or bad.

why is it a common agreement that it was bad writing that buffy got kicked out of her house?

why do fans hate the potentials?

why is kennedy seen as the worst love interest for willow?

why are adam and dark willow not beloved villains like The Mayor, Angelus or Glory


Also, Spike can be considered a carbon copy of Angel. infact i thought it was weird and unrealistic that buffy will fall in love with a vampire twice or that spike will fall in love with his greatest rival girlfriend. how much can lighten strike twice?

yes, spike and buffy has been done on other shows. its the ultimate teen trope. the bad boy and the good girl who start of hating each other then fall in love. infact, why i dont even like this trope is because the good guy looses to the bad boy which is wish fulfilment because in the real life what bad boys do is drag a girl down, there is no happy ending or long lasting romance in the real world of toxic relationships.
 

Puppet

Actual size.
Joined
Aug 1, 2017
Messages
6,509
Age
31
Location
Denmark
Black Thorn
yes, spike and buffy has been done on other shows. its the ultimate teen trope. the bad boy and the good girl who start of hating each other then fall in love. infact, why i dont even like this trope is because the good guy looses to the bad boy which is wish fulfilment because in the real life what bad boys do is drag a girl down, there is no happy ending or long lasting romance in the real world of toxic relationships.
And Buffy and Angel has been done to death on other shows, as well, also as the ultimate teen trope - the first love, the Romeo and Juliet, the destined lovers with tragedy and drama keeping them apart. I don't like that trope at all, but what that has to do with good or bad writing I honestly can't say.

There are still exceptions to every example you gave.

why is it a common agreement that it was bad writing that buffy got kicked out of her house?
Is it? And that's two questions in one. Is it the majority that doesn't like this episode? And if it is, is it the majority's reasoning that it's due to bad writing? I find that the writing on this episode is not what I would call bad but it certainly isn't the best the show's ever done - I agree with some of the assessments and character behavior and find it difficult to accept others, but that could be true for episodes considered the best of the show - a large chunk of fans find Anya's The Body speech OTT and unmoving and yet I still find that to be great writing mixed with great acting.

why do fans hate the potentials?
Because they weren't given enough screentime - this does not mean that when they were on screen that they were written badly, it just meant that a lot had to be stuffed into one season. Still not seeing what this has to do with the argument that Angel/Bangel is written better than Spike/Spuffy, though.

why is kennedy seen as the worst love interest for willow?

Because she is? Again, how is that bad writing? Because they didn't mean for her to be seen that way? Some things are out of even the writer's control; if they had gotten their way, Spike wouldn't have survived S2.

why are adam and dark willow not beloved villains like The Mayor, Angelus or Glory

Since when is Dark!Willow not considered a beloved villain to the likes of the others you mentioned? Pretty sure the majority love Willow's S6 arc, as far as what I've learned from my time in the fandom. And, yeah, I agree with you that Adam is bad writing, but that doesn't mean that someone else out there won't disagree and consider Adam brilliant writing.

I don't understand how someone who can appreciate writing - in general, good or bad - can say that it's all black and white; like with most things, writing is in the eye of the beholder, that's why we, as a people, don't fully agree or disagree on the writings of films, TV, novels, poetry and so much more - that's what discussion is for.

I find Willow's arc one of the weakest of the show - to briefly jump out of topic - but that doesn't mean that I don't accept and respect that someone else thinks the writing on it is some of the best they've seen. All it means is that we disagree.
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
Joined
Jul 29, 2016
Messages
7,725
Age
29
Spike was more of a wish fulfilment. the prove is in season 7, where many fans complained that he took over the show and many characters like Giles, and Dawn were assassinated just to make spike look good.
I thought Season 7 was very kind to Dawn. Giles was character assassinated back in Season 6 when he just abandoned Buffy with the flimsiest excuse even though the reason he was going to leave in Season 5 was the complete opposite.

In Season 5, he was going to leave because he felt like Buffy didn't need him, yet he changed his mind and stuck around.

In Season 6 when Buffy actually needs him, he hops on a plane back to England because he feels like she is relying on him too much, despite the fact it is revealed that she was dragged out of heaven.

I preferred Season 2 Spike, I disliked how he was turned into Buffy's lapdog.

Spike still wearing Nikki Woods Jacket after Robin confronted him? that is cool right?
Spike's coat is an iconic part of his character. It's why he put it back on in Get It Done to signify he was getting his mojo back, plus it's why after it was blown up in Angel Season 5, it was immediately replaced with an exact copy.

Sex also prove Spike is a wish fulfilment character. many people dream of a person to sleep with with no consequences or ties, just for pleasure, its a wish fulfilment.
Buffy's sex with Spike did have consequences. It wasn't just a casual bunk up. Buffy was an addict in Season 6 and Spike was her drug.


it is of fact season 2 and 3 are the best and most acclimated buffy seasons and that was mostly because of angel's arc. season 6 and 7 are seen as the worst buffy seasons and those are the spuffy seasons.
Season 2 is seen as the best and that's in part due to Spike and Dru. Angel didn't get interesting until Angelus came out to play and that didn't happen until over half way through the Season. Villain Spike is the best Spike.


I think there are some factual measurement to judge if a writing is good or bad.
If you want an example of bad writing, try and work out the timeline of Once Upon a Time.


why is it a common agreement that it was bad writing that buffy got kicked out of her house?
1. Because the mutiny was led by Kennedy, with Wood and Rona chipping in.

2. It was out of character for the Scoobies to turn on Buffy like that.

3. Caleb and Bringers were loose in the town, why would the scoobies think it was okay for Buffy to be on her own.

4. Ultimately Buffy is proved to be correct which means the Scoobies and potentials were unjustified in kicking her out of the house.

5. The mutiny was a power play on Kennedy's part yet she is never called out on her actions.

why do fans hate the potentials?
Because the "face" of the potentials is Kennedy and she is a nasty piece of work. Plus screen time taken up by the potentials is less screen time focussing on the characters we actually care about.

why is kennedy seen as the worst love interest for willow?
Because Kennedy is just awful and a horrible person, that is putting it politely. She's a nasty arrogant brat who is a bitch and a bully towards others. Even when the first says that she helped contribute to Chloe's suicide, not once does Kennedy reflect on her actions like a normal person would do, she just doesn't care. She acknowledges she's a brat yet does nothing to change her behaviour, and she was gloating about calling Chloe "Maggot" and publicly humiliating her in front of the other potentials. What was Chloe's "crime" to warrant such treatment? She confused her left with her right which is a mistake that any one can make, especially when they're feeling the pressure of being hunted down by what is essentially an evil cult that wants to brutally murder them. All Kennedy cared about with the mutiny was getting a bigger say. In the immediate aftermath of the mutiny when everyone is trying to talk at once and Xander is saying that maybe everyone shouldn't get a say (which is what Buffy was saying), you can clearly hear Kennedy saying "Perhaps those of us who have been here longest should get a bigger say". Since Kennedy is the only original potential left, she's clearly referring to herself, so already she's aiming to deny the other potentials a say so long as she gets to insert her opinion. She even openly admits to Faith that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge, so it's clear that Kennedy initiated the mutiny with a selfish motivation. She doesn't give a crap about the other potentials so long as she gets what she wants. Also she goes on about wanting to be a slayer then skives off going to the desert with Giles for training and then avoids the majority of the final battle.

As for her treatment of Willow, she invites herself into Willow's bed (the one she shared with Tara, even probably sleeping on Tara's side of the bed) which makes Willow so uncomfortable that she is forced to sleep on the floor because Kennedy won't leave. She calls magic "a bunch of fairy tale crap" right to Willow's face. It's one thing not to share an interest with someone, it's quite another to insult it to their face. Also bare in mind magic is what brought Willow and Tara together so essentially Kennedy is telling Willow that her relationship with Tara was because of "a bunch of fairy tale crap". Then there is the fact that every time Willow defends Buffy or looks like she's about to, Kennedy has a go at her. Even though Buffy and Willow have been friends for 7 years and been through a lot together, Kennedy thinks Willow should automatically be siding with her.

There is nothing likeable about Kennedy. The only way she would garner any sympathy from the audience is if she was being eaten slowly by Gnarl. Even then, people would probably be Team Gnarl.

why are adam and dark willow not beloved villains like The Mayor, Angelus or Glory
The Mayor, Angelus and Glory had distinct personalities. Adam was quite generic. He had potential but never reached it, his human self in Restless could've been interesting and if we'd met human Adam before Monster Adam then he could've been quite a tragic character.
 

AngelBuffy

Townie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
45
Age
30
And Buffy and Angel has been done to death on other shows, as well, also as the ultimate teen trope - the first love, the Romeo and Juliet, the destined lovers with tragedy and drama keeping them apart. I don't like that trope at all, but what that has to do with good or bad writing I honestly can't say.

There are still exceptions to every example you gave.

why is it a common agreement that it was bad writing that buffy got kicked out of her house?
Is it? And that's two questions in one. Is it the majority that doesn't like this episode? And if it is, is it the majority's reasoning that it's due to bad writing? I find that the writing on this episode is not what I would call bad but it certainly isn't the best the show's ever done - I agree with some of the assessments and character behavior and find it difficult to accept others, but that could be true for episodes considered the best of the show - a large chunk of fans find Anya's The Body speech OTT and unmoving and yet I still find that to be great writing mixed with great acting.

why do fans hate the potentials?
Because they weren't given enough screentime - this does not mean that when they were on screen that they were written badly, it just meant that a lot had to be stuffed into one season. Still not seeing what this has to do with the argument that Angel/Bangel is written better than Spike/Spuffy, though.

why is kennedy seen as the worst love interest for willow?
Because she is? Again, how is that bad writing? Because they didn't mean for her to be seen that way? Some things are out of even the writer's control; if they had gotten their way, Spike wouldn't have survived S2.

why are adam and dark willow not beloved villains like The Mayor, Angelus or Glory
Since when is Dark!Willow not considered a beloved villain to the likes of the others you mentioned? Pretty sure the majority love Willow's S6 arc, as far as what I've learned from my time in the fandom. And, yeah, I agree with you that Adam is bad writing, but that doesn't mean that someone else out there won't disagree and consider Adam brilliant writing.

I don't understand how someone who can appreciate writing - in general, good or bad - can say that it's all black and white; like with most things, writing is in the eye of the beholder, that's why we, as a people, don't fully agree or disagree on the writings of films, TV, novels, poetry and so much more - that's what discussion is for.

I find Willow's arc one of the weakest of the show - to briefly jump out of topic - but that doesn't mean that I don't accept and respect that someone else thinks the writing on it is some of the best they've seen. All it means is that we disagree.

angel and buffy had a twist. we did not predict angelus coming although now we know in the real world, many girls experince this,

we didn't see buffy killing angel in season 2

we didnt predict angel and buffy will break up for good in the prom.

angel and buffy was romeo and juliet with an original twist.


let me summarise the rest.

kicking buffy out was bad writing because it was inconsistent and the characters have pulled through worst things, it came out of nowhere, also it was only done to further spike and buffy relationships, to make spike her only trusted confidante. it was the breakdown of the scooby dynamic that no offence to bangel and s[uffy shippers was the real love story of the show until the writers started proping up spike in season 7.

bangel balanced out the scoobys even with the angelus conflict. spuffy suffocated the scoobys. not once in the bangel relationship was buffy sp isoalted that all she had was angel to lean on. that is why buffy getting kicked out is bad writing.

I would not say most hate dark willow but she is not in the high list of best buffy villains. spike and dru from season 2 and the master usually out rank her.

kennedy and the potentials were flat out ungrateful and annoying,

infact buffy had a better army with the sunnydale high students in graduation part 2 than she did with the potentials.

we have had better writing.
 
Last edited:
B
Btvs fan
Bangel was a 27 year finding a 15 year old, dating her when she is 16 then sleeping with her at 17 then breaking up at 18. Thats called grooming
Puppet
Puppet
Every single word in this post is your opinion, not fact, so I'm done trying to make you see the truth; you're obviously too blind to do so.

AngelBuffy

Townie
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
45
Age
30
I thought Season 7 was very kind to Dawn. Giles was character assassinated back in Season 6 when he just abandoned Buffy with the flimsiest excuse even though the reason he was going to leave in Season 5 was the complete opposite.

In Season 5, he was going to leave because he felt like Buffy didn't need him, yet he changed his mind and stuck around.

In Season 6 when Buffy actually needs him, he hops on a plane back to England because he feels like she is relying on him too much, despite the fact it is revealed that she was dragged out of heaven.

I preferred Season 2 Spike, I disliked how he was turned into Buffy's lapdog.



Spike's coat is an iconic part of his character. It's why he put it back on in Get It Done to signify he was getting his mojo back, plus it's why after it was blown up in Angel Season 5, it was immediately replaced with an exact copy.



Buffy's sex with Spike did have consequences. It wasn't just a casual bunk up. Buffy was an addict in Season 6 and Spike was her drug.




Season 2 is seen as the best and that's in part due to Spike and Dru. Angel didn't get interesting until Angelus came out to play and that didn't happen until over half way through the Season. Villain Spike is the best Spike.




If you want an example of bad writing, try and work out the timeline of Once Upon a Time.




1. Because the mutiny was led by Kennedy, with Wood and Rona chipping in.

2. It was out of character for the Scoobies to turn on Buffy like that.

3. Caleb and Bringers were loose in the town, why would the scoobies think it was okay for Buffy to be on her own.

4. Ultimately Buffy is proved to be correct which means the Scoobies and potentials were unjustified in kicking her out of the house.

5. The mutiny was a power play on Kennedy's part yet she is never called out on her actions.



Because the "face" of the potentials is Kennedy and she is a nasty piece of work. Plus screen time taken up by the potentials is less screen time focussing on the characters we actually care about.



Because Kennedy is just awful and a horrible person, that is putting it politely. She's a nasty arrogant brat who is a bitch and a bully towards others. Even when the first says that she helped contribute to Chloe's suicide, not once does Kennedy reflect on her actions like a normal person would do, she just doesn't care. She acknowledges she's a brat yet does nothing to change her behaviour, and she was gloating about calling Chloe "Maggot" and publicly humiliating her in front of the other potentials. What was Chloe's "crime" to warrant such treatment? She confused her left with her right which is a mistake that any one can make, especially when they're feeling the pressure of being hunted down by what is essentially an evil cult that wants to brutally murder them. All Kennedy cared about with the mutiny was getting a bigger say. In the immediate aftermath of the mutiny when everyone is trying to talk at once and Xander is saying that maybe everyone shouldn't get a say (which is what Buffy was saying), you can clearly hear Kennedy saying "Perhaps those of us who have been here longest should get a bigger say". Since Kennedy is the only original potential left, she's clearly referring to herself, so already she's aiming to deny the other potentials a say so long as she gets to insert her opinion. She even openly admits to Faith that she thought she'd get a bigger say with Faith in charge, so it's clear that Kennedy initiated the mutiny with a selfish motivation. She doesn't give a crap about the other potentials so long as she gets what she wants. Also she goes on about wanting to be a slayer then skives off going to the desert with Giles for training and then avoids the majority of the final battle.

As for her treatment of Willow, she invites herself into Willow's bed (the one she shared with Tara, even probably sleeping on Tara's side of the bed) which makes Willow so uncomfortable that she is forced to sleep on the floor because Kennedy won't leave. She calls magic "a bunch of fairy tale crap" right to Willow's face. It's one thing not to share an interest with someone, it's quite another to insult it to their face. Also bare in mind magic is what brought Willow and Tara together so essentially Kennedy is telling Willow that her relationship with Tara was because of "a bunch of fairy tale crap". Then there is the fact that every time Willow defends Buffy or looks like she's about to, Kennedy has a go at her. Even though Buffy and Willow have been friends for 7 years and been through a lot together, Kennedy thinks Willow should automatically be siding with her.

There is nothing likeable about Kennedy. The only way she would garner any sympathy from the audience is if she was being eaten slowly by Gnarl. Even then, people would probably be Team Gnarl.



The Mayor, Angelus and Glory had distinct personalities. Adam was quite generic. He had potential but never reached it, his human self in Restless could've been interesting and if we'd met human Adam before Monster Adam then he could've been quite a tragic character.

icoinc part is more excuse for wish fulfilment. he should have stopped wearing the jacket anytime wood was around. that would have been a sign of remorse. what even bugs me is buffy should have said something about it. instead she wanted wood to just get over it because spike is good now.

Giles may have been shitty in season 6 for leaving buffy but his worst crime was ganging up on buffy to kick her out and so easily accepting faith as the new leader.

dawn telling her to leave made no sense, it is not as if it is dawn who was paying the mortgage.

I would not say buffy was an addict, i think she greatly enjoyed the pleasure but i wont say she was an addict, I think the consequence must have been rape but in the real world attempted rape is a crime and an act that destroys relationship for good. it is not the same as person turning into a jerk like parker or in the buffy metaphor lesson (angelus) that is more of a psychology thing, wheras rape is just a flat out crime.
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
1,794
Location
Manchester
Sorry but that is not objectivity true, if you know or understand good writing.
Well - that's me told. I prefer Spike/Buffy to Angel/Buffy and S7's my favourite season - I obviously need a career change.



Anyone want a pile of lecture notes for Lessons?
 
S
SpikeRocks
Can someone laugh at my joke above, bc I'm still ROFLing over here and need people to join! LOL
K
katmobile
High fives one of my fellow season seven fans.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,013
Age
38
I think it's still pretty clear that Angelus and Angel are very different. Angelus lacks all morals while Angel is guilt-ridden by his moral compass even if he does slip up at times because he is still a vampire just one with a soul.
Yes Angelus raped people. I never said he didn't.
In Season 5 he is literally manipulating people then ordering there murders and giving Job references to unsouled Vampires. That's more than a slip.
 

Taake

If the apocalypse comes, beep me!
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
16,387
Age
34
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
A note as we carry on here - Let’s be careful about suggestions concerning ”objectively” good writing or facts of writing.

If there were clear facts of writing, this wouldn’t be much of a discussion board.

What is objectively good is also tenuous at best and offensive at worst (when used to put others reading of the text down). It is a poor measure of what is good to go with what ”the majority seems to think” (Moby Dick was a flop in its time yet now hailed as a classic - which majority was right? If either?).

And even if there is a general consensus, that does not devalue the opposing opinions of what others find in the text. They may see some things the majority (If there even is one) don’t yet. Maybe never will. That’s ok.

Either way, let’s be respectful enough to formulate and state our own opinions, without devaluing other’s. It makes for a hostile discussion environment that no one enjoys.
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,234
Age
48
I think there are some factual measurement to judge if a writing is good or bad.

why is it a common agreement that it was bad writing that buffy got kicked out of her house?

why do fans hate the potentials?

why is kennedy seen as the worst love interest for willow?

why are adam and dark willow not beloved villains like The Mayor, Angelus or Glory


Also, Spike can be considered a carbon copy of Angel. infact i thought it was weird and unrealistic that buffy will fall in love with a vampire twice or that spike will fall in love with his greatest rival girlfriend. how much can lighten strike twice?

yes, spike and buffy has been done on other shows. its the ultimate teen trope. the bad boy and the good girl who start of hating each other then fall in love. infact, why i dont even like this trope is because the good guy looses to the bad boy which is wish fulfilment because in the real life what bad boys do is drag a girl down, there is no happy ending or long lasting romance in the real world of toxic relationships.
Logical fallacy - appeal to the majority. Just because sometimes is a majority opinion does not enshrine it as truth for example I disagree about the Empty Places arguement. Also I frequently think electorates make dumb decisions collectively also Bangel ain't a majority opinion I get the impression it's around a fifty/fifty split between Bangels and Spuffys Sarah's opinion ain't a deciding vote sorry sorry not sorry guys.

I agree 'good' writing is pretty subjective. Even Lani Diane Rich who I love has some very obvious peeves which I disagree with. Sometimes you defer to the experts.

Someone once made the subjective arguement explained why he didn't like my fav band and I think I may have commented saying fair enough. I don't mind someone having a contrary opinion as long as they don't insist that anyone who disagrees is stupid or obviously wrong.
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
1,794
Location
Manchester
@AngelBuffy Here’s the thing. I’m old. I watched BtVS and Angel when they first aired in the UK. I was old then. I enjoyed it. It was regular viewing. I was what was called “Team Spike” rather than "Spuffy" (I like Angel but I think he’s more interesting away from Buffy. I might even prefer his show to hers). I didn’t watch it again (despite the DVDs being in the house) until 2017. The re-watch blew me away – particularly the last two seasons. That's when I joined the fandom. It blew me away because, IMO, it’s theory driven (The Social Construction of Reality as seen in Life Serial) and I’m a sad soul who likes literary/film/cultural theory. The later seasons aren't worse or better by any objective yardstick, it's down to taste (I prefer postmodern fiction to Victorian literature; it doesn't make Alasdair Gray or Thomas Pynchon or DeLillo better or worse that Eliot, Dickens or Hardy). It's like comparing apples and pears. Everyone talks about the overarching metaphors in S1-3 but by the time we get to 6/7 everything is metaphor (in the sense that metaphor stands for something else) because we've moved into the realms of representation.

Spike – and Spuffy - are far more interesting than you’re making them out to be but this isn’t the place to address it because it’s off-topic. I'll just say this because it's relevant to the OP.

The European Journal of Cultural Studies dedicated a whole issue to Spike it’s available here:

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

That a well respected peer-reviewed journal gives over an entire issue to him is telling (academics tend to like Spike). My reading of Spike is roughly in keeping with the reading made in the introduction The vampire Spike in text and fandom: Unsettling oppositions in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (I can't remember whether I've read the whole journal - another peril of being old):

Summary here: The Slayer Network Offline Ressources

I'm quoting just to prove I haven't made this shit up: “Spike acts out erotic desire in a manner that undermines heterosexual/homosexual and masculine/feminine binaries…[He] is polymorphous…both man and monster…and his increasingly fractured self undermines the Manichaean struggle, which is central to so much of today’s popular culture…While the erotic relationship between…Angel and Buffy results in the reanimation of…Angelus, which amounts to a refusal of interpenetrative intimacy and a reassertion of gender boundaries, Buffy’s pairing with Spike is far more fluid and complex.”

This is why Spuffy isn’t a bad boy/good girl trope - Spike - and Spuffy - make such an opposition unsustainable because, if you draw up a list of said oppositions: Male/Female; Masculine/Feminine; Alive/Dead; Subject/Object; Spirit (soul, mind)/Body; Father/Mother; Presence/Absence; Speech/Silence (the list is endless), Spike falls either in between oppositions (the impossible middle) or vacillates between the poles (Buffy is similar positioned). He's "queer". Spuffy is queerer still. They occupy a position, have a structure, similar to that of bisexuality (without necessarily being bisexual themselves). I'm using the term queer (appropriated from Queer Theory) to refer to the way queering "dismantles the dynamics of power and privilege persisting among diverse subjectivities."[6]

And…to bring it back to topic, an opposition that plays throughout S6/7 is the Spirit (soul, mind)/Body split. I don't like Seeing Red and I wish the AR hadn't happened. Not because it bothers me (I tend to think of characters as narrative functions rather than "people") but because it bothers/triggers other people. Much of S6 is about language (the first thing Buffy does in After Life is put an embargo on speech). S7 more so. Language is of the mind. Language defines who we are and it doesn't serve Spike well (remember, he's a failed poet but a good man). As a vampire, he doesn't have access to self-definition, doesn't have access to power (his power is physical not structural. Again, Buffy is in a similar position in relation to "Slayer"). He's considered "evil" because he's a vampire and not because of any act. More than any other character, he doesn't speak language; language speaks him. He has a penis but no access to the phallus. He can't make his knowledge "truth".

Personally, I'm not convinced he needs a soul. I don't think it necessarily adds anything. It might have been easier to book a series of appointments with a psychotherapist. That aside, at the very least, the soul functions as a transcendental signifier. It's the prism through which people see him and reconceptualize him...believe in him, trust in him...eventually, he believes in himself (but sadly not enough to believe Buffy).

In SR he's failed to persuade her that what he/they have is love. When tongues don't work (see Chosen) he falls back on the only avenue available to him - the physical (something similar happens in Touched - Faith bars him from speaking, he shrugs and hits her). For this reason, it had to be a physical attack on Buffy body; for this reason it had to be a violation that both man and monster were capable of. It had to be an act whereby he was subject and she was object. The antithesis of SR is Touched (it's "feeling" but the subject/object relationship has been changed - they both occupy the duality simultaneously).

So yeah...I think (sadly) the AR was necessary. And yeah...I'm sad.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom