1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Was Spike mishandled in S8?

Discussion in 'Season 8' started by Robb Stark, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    Tempe
    Reputation:
    11,719
    Sineya
    For a character who was such a huge part of the series from S4 onwards, and who was a big part of S5 on AtS, do you think he was misused or underutilized in S8? His only role in the season is a really strange late game cameo where he essentially just shows up for the final battle and acts as an expository tool (which makes zero sense in a season full of things not making a whole lot of sense, as there's no real reason or explanation provided as to how or why he knows all of what he says), and that's about it. He doesn't really have much of a role at all, which is doubly strange when you consider that just about everyone under the sun from BTVS appears in S8. For such a major character, why wouldn't he have more of a role, more of a substantial part in the season?

    Now, he was a huge part of "After the Fall", and I thought that was great. It just always struck me as sort of odd that a dynamic character who was judged to be valuable and important enough (something I agree with) to take over the male lead role on the television series would be dropped for the bulk of the season before being parachuted in at the end just to have him there.
     
  2. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    I dont think he was underutilized, I just dont think he fits in anymore. He can't be with Buffy and he can't just keep going for her, he has to move on.

    He can't be in the Buffy comic to do that, but I also dont think he has enough pull to get his own comic, which is kinda backed up by the Spike comic which was the lowest performing comic, except the first 2 issues which outsold Angel and Faith, but eventually fell to last place, and it wasn't just writing the debut issue was a good bit behind the Willow comic, so the appeal to buy the comic wasn't there in the first place and both lost readers over their run but Willow still stayed higher.

    So I kinda think he was mishandled, but not underutilized, I just dont think they know what to do with him
     
    Kean:
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  3. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,243
    Sineya
    Personally, I don't think Spike had a place in the story of S8. The manner in which they wedged him into the story made that really obvious, for the last couple of issues he barely did anything but smoke in the corner while everyone else was taken up by the fray.

    The thing with Spike is that he isn't character that has ever successfully stood on his own. Spike only knows who he is as an individual in relation to those around him. He needs someone to give himself over to and give his life purpose: his mother, Cecily, Dru, Angelus, Buffy, Angel...

    I wish the writers could figure out to create a worthwhile story where he figures out to be his own man, maybe I'd even like him a little for it. But the comics haven't figured that out yet. There was no one in S8 for Spike to fall in line with, the two that he usually would have were Buffy and Angel, and they had each other, there was no room for him. And so, to fill that gap the writers give Spike a ship with bugs. I mean, come on.

    Spike was in S8 because his fans adore him. He wasn't there because the story required his presence.
     
  4. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,295
    Likes Received:
    2,907
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,537
    It could be argued that everything that is considered canon from the IDW series is part of Season 8, since Angel's return from hell was used in the Dark Horse series, as was Spike's space ship. If we include the "After The Fall" arc and Spike's two arcs in Buffy's story, the same way that we include the "Nameless Slayer" story and the Giles and Faith arc, none of which directly interact with Buffy and her team, it would mean that Spike had a quite substantial part in the overall story line of Season 8.

    I do feel, however, that the Buffy/Spike reunion was probably the biggest let down of the entire season, not because I was expecting something the equivalent to the Buffy/Angel gymnastics, but, for God's sake, the man was her major support in Season 7, standing beside her when everyone else mutinied, he died for her in the hellmouth, which contributed greatly to defeating the First Evil and saving the world. She didn't have to drag him off into the nearest private compartment and jump his bones, as much as she obviously wanted to, but a simple "I'm glad yot made it out of the hellmouth. I hope you know how grateful I am for what you did for me, but I have a war to fight right now," wouldn't have been out of place, especially since he and his ship were saving her and everyone else's lives.

    Ingratitude, Thy name is Buffy.
     
  5. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    Denial thy name is spike-fans. This is what the I love you was for.

    I'll also never understand why people belittle Spikes sacrifice by saying it was for Buffy, it wasn't, it was for the world. He died to save the world, it was like the first proper good thing that he's done, let him have it :D
     
  6. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,295
    Likes Received:
    2,907
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,537
    So, dying to save the world isn't worthy of gratitude? Remind me never to sacrifice my life for your world! Furthermore...

    Spike was part of Buffy's strike force, he died in a battle that she initiated, wearing an amulet known to have significant, though unspecified, power, an amulet that he volunteered to wear, despite the risk. It doesn't stretch my imagination very far to consider what he did while in Buffy's service as being the equivalent of dying for her. If you consider that as in some way belittling Spike's sacrifice, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

    And if you think that that was the first good thing that Spike ever did, how do you define spending all summer protecting Dawn and helping patrol the hellmouth alongside a group of people who considered him to be nothing but a monster?
     
  7. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    No, but I think Buffy telling him he loves her was her way of giving him that gratitude as everything he'd done was for her, so she though telling him he loved her would be the greatest reward for him. But he says no you don't because he isn't doing it just for her, he's actually trying to save the world.

    Yeah I guess we do disagree on that, I definitely think it's a less important sacrifice if he died cuz he wanted in her pants vs dieing to save the world.

    I see that as a soulless neutered vampire who had no where else to go.
     
    white avenger: Denial, thy name is Angel-Fans. But we love you anyhow.
  8. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,243
    Sineya
    I'm trying to remember anyone thanking Buffy for dying for the world. If anything she got tremendous amounts of crap from people about it. Now that I mention it, I can't think of anyone thanking Buffy for any of her efforts over the years. If Buffy isn't getting any gratitude I fail to see why Spike should. Though, to be fair to Spike, he isn't the one looking for a pat on the back.
     
  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,295
    Likes Received:
    2,907
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,537
    No, but I do remember at the beginning of Season 6, several people giving her a hug and saying that she was glad that she was back. Granted, her return was less than a blessing in her mind, but their intentions had been good, and their happiness at her return was certainly sincere.

    And, lest we forget, unfair as it might be, fighting demons and even dying to save the world if necessary is a Slayer's duty, and it's the most thankless of thankless jobs. That's not an excuse, just an observation. Spike, on the other hand, had probably the least business in that fight of anyone there, but he was there, because he made a promise to a lady. I think that deserves at least a little bit of gratitude.

    Honestly, Miss K, you have certainly backslidden since you quit coming to Adopt-A-Bangel meetings.
     
  10. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    I think it comes back to everything with Spike, the character and fans of the character keep thinking he's entitled to stuff without earning it.

    Least? He's killed hundreds of people, the least he could do would be there trying to do some good, the people with least business there were Dawn, Xander, Andrew, Anya, Wood, Giles and you could argue the potentials, as all those characters didn't have supernatural abilities.

    Angel went to hell because Angelus opened the portal, he wasn't getting thanked when he got back.

    Buffys friends were happy she was back but they weren't saying thank you for saving the world.

    Xander wasn't thanked when he talked Willow down.

    Heroes don't need a thank you, they do good for good not to earn points/get in someones pants. Looking for gratitude for Spike for saving the world once is crazy since no one else gets its and its exactly what turned me off the character, fans thinking he's entitled to everything when other characters have done so much more.
     
  11. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,243
    Sineya
    If anything, resurrecting Buffy was a "We really wish you hadn't done that because now we have TO DO EVERYTHING", kind of reaction. It wasn't a thank you by any stretch of the imagination. And those hugs and blessing lasted about a minute, once Buffy didn't thank them (Willow) their tune changed rather sharply to "why is she so ungrateful."

    Oh yeah, that Spike is a real prince. :rolleyes:
     
  12. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,295
    Likes Received:
    2,907
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,537
    More like "Something's wrong with our friend. We love her, and we want to help."

    It isn't their fault that she didn't tell them what was wrong.

    And, no, Spike isn't a prince. A prince's nobility is only an accident of birth. Spike is a self made man, with input from a Slayer.
     
  13. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,243
    Sineya
    We see both of these things very differently, which is well documented in countless threads here. We'll just agree that I'm right and you're wrong and leave it at that. :D ;) :p
     
  14. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,295
    Likes Received:
    2,907
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,537
    Only in the Bizarro world, Miss K. Only in the Bizarro world.

    I am willing to concede this, however. Of all the vampires with a soul in the Buffyverse, there's only one better than Angel.
     
    PreferSpike and bespangeled like this.
  15. Buffyverse Fan

    Buffyverse Fan * The 28th *

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Messages:
    1,710
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    United States
    Reputation:
    715
    Sineya
    I didn't realize that, but to be fair the cause could be the fact that Willow's comic played heavily into both the Buffy & Angel arcs where Spike's was almost a completely standalone story.

    Personally, I don't think it's fair to criticize Spike for not being a strong standalone character since Buffy herself isn't nearly as compelling standing alone as opposed to being in the group dynamic.

    In fact, I would argue the other extreme, that Spike is the only protagonist who stays remotely as interesting when isolated from the televised core heroes. If I have to choose between Spike interacting with Betta George; and Buffy interacting with Billy, I'd take Spike any day.
     
  16. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    I would think that would explain the drop off but I think if the character had enough appeal the first issue would have been similar figures to Willow, would people have known how much the comic would be part of the overall story?

    Well by stand alone, I was more thinking headlining. Like how Angel has his own team, I dont think Spike could hold his own comic where he's the lead.

    I could understand that, but I think thats due to the crappy comic writing not the character, I think more people would have read Willow because more people like that character. I think for people to pick up the comic there has to be interest from the TV show not the comic. I think Willow would have more appeal from the show then Spike would have, which is why I think the Willow comic did better. I dont think the comic stories would have a massive impact on which comics people pick up, because overall there is a low opinion of the comics (or disappointment)
     
  17. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    Tempe
    Reputation:
    11,719
    Sineya
    I don't think expecting Buffy to have a more positive reaction towards Spike when she first sees him is all that unreasonable. Regardless of who got thanked or not thanked for what, that doesn't mean that from this day on no one should be shown gratitude or warmth when they do something right. And really, it does seem a little...petty...to say "well Xander never got thanked two years earlier for something in a completely different context so Spike shouldn't be thanked either! It's only fair!". Come on. Regardless of how you feel about the character (and this applies to everyone), Spike did an incredible thing in "Chosen". There was no reason whatsoever for Buffy to be so cold and downright hostile towards him. That has nothing to do with shipping or who I like more, it's an observation about what should be basic human decency and respect.

    Spike and Buffy got along well for almost all of S7. There was no reason for the hostility. She doesn't have to sleep with him or be lovey-dovey, but I'm curious as to why there was anger. The only logical thing I can think of is that she was mad at him for not telling her he'd been back for so long.
     
    PreferSpike and bespangeled like this.
  18. Kean

    Kean Professional Bangel

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    11,943
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    30,243
    Sineya
    I think that says more about the quality of Billy as a character than it does Buffy. Some of my favourite episodes and scenes of the show are when Buffy is separated from the core group and interacting with new people. Kendra, Willy, Anne-Chanterelle, Robin, Maggie Walsh, Holden, Marci Ross... the list is endless.
     
  19. Black Eye Guy

    Black Eye Guy Taking over the World!

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,904
    Likes Received:
    65
    Location:
    Ireland
    Reputation:
    23,095
    Black Thorn
    I dont think it's petty, it's pointing out that no one else is saying "Why wasn't Xander thanked", but when it comes to Spike people feel he's entitled to a thank you. It's a valid point when the only character that the question gets brought up on is Spike, and that applied for all pervious seasons and future, I'd be willing to bet no one will be looking for a thank you for any of the other characters in the future, unless its Spike.
     
    Kean: I just read a great quote from Ronan O'Gara, "Does the postman get thanked for delivering letter?" I found it apt to this discussion. :)
  20. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    Tempe
    Reputation:
    11,719
    Sineya
    But it has nothing to do with entitlement. If the next scene involving Buffy and Xander after he talked Willow down was her giving him crap for something, I'd say the exact same thing. I would think it to be a pretty bitchy thing to do. The character in question, to me at least, is irrelevant.

    And, again, just saying someone else didn't get thanked for something isn't really an argument. No one has answered why Buffy was so hostile yet. The only thing I've seen is "well no one else got thanked". The point I made went unanswered. Does that mean no one should ever be shown gratitude...for anything, just because someone else missed out? That doesn't have anything to do with entitlement, and it doesn't make any sense. I don't think Spike is entitled to anything. I simply found it incredibly rude that Buffy was treating him like crap for virtually no reason, given the context. Spike wasn't really asking for anything. He just showed up.

    [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION],

    That quote isn't really pertinent though. Delivering the mail isn't a job that involves death (or at least, not all the time...). It's a regular job performed by regular people who are paid a salary. Hardly comparable to what Buffy, Angel and Spike have all sacrificed themselves doing.