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Were they friends?

Were they friends?

  • Buffy/Angel: friends

    Votes: 11 28.9%
  • Buffy/Angel: not friends

    Votes: 17 44.7%
  • Buffy/Spike: friends

    Votes: 25 65.8%
  • Buffy/Spike: not friends

    Votes: 12 31.6%

  • Total voters
    38
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest

Friends suggest a level of comfortableness and trust that I feel both relationships lack. They come close, but it does not last. It is possible to be lovers and friends. Tara and Will are a good example of that. Will doesn't need a confidante when she's with Tara.
 

Taake

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Friends suggest a level of comfortableness and trust that I feel both relationships lack. They come close, but it does not last. It is possible to be lovers and friends. Tara and Will are a good example of that. Will doesn't need a confidante when she's with Tara.
Life lesson: Don't boink the undead to whom, technically, you're food.

Despite Spike's pithy line however, I do think that Buffy developed a friendship with both Angel and Spike.

Did Willow not need a confidante, or did she not have one? I think that's the difference for me concerning Tillow in this regard. I think Willow still needed one, but she and Buffy had drifted apart in that sense already.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Life lesson: Don't boink the undead to whom, technically, you're food.

Despite Spike's pithy line however, I do think that Buffy developed a friendship with both Angel and Spike.

Did Willow not need a confidante, or did she not have one? I think that's the difference for me concerning Tillow in this regard. I think Willow still needed one, but she and Buffy had drifted apart in that sense already.
Well, Will could certainly have used someone to talk to in S4. Still, I think Willow and Tara's relationship was qualitatively different from any of Buffy's. They both swore they would remain friends even if Will chose Oz. Could you imagine Angel or Spike doing that? :p

Lovely banner btw! :)
 
Taake
Taake
I agree that it's qualitatively different. Guess I just feel that around Tara in s4, Buffy fails a bit as a girlfriend-confidante to Willow.

thrasherpix

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This is a hard one for me and I'm not going to vote right now, just give my immediate thoughts.

Buffy & Angel strike me as friends given the comfort and help they give each other, but it enters a gray area for me because the passion is always waiting to bubble back up (had season 7 not made me numb to it by the time Angel showed up, I think I'd have been pretty WTF over the kissing followed by cookie dough speech). I do believe that people can be friends and romantic partners both, but if there are unrequited feelings on either side as a romantic pairing just can't work then I think "being friends" is cruel and that they should go their own ways to stay apart (at least for a few years). It's painful, but not as painful and troublesome as sticking together as friends.


Spike & Buffy? Never. Not with a soul, and not without one. Buffy was too much on a pedestal for him to do that, though that certainly didn't mean he didn't betray her on a regular basis (though in season 7 I'm thinking of where Spike leads Buffy into a basement trap and his sanity was such that I'm not sure what to make of his actions there--and that's before taking the deplorable writing of season 7 into account--though even if he has insanity for an excuse, I don't see how the insane can be friends with anyone).

A classic example is Spike banging Buffy while the eggs she's looking for are hidden away, but he straight up lies to her, and then mocks both Riley and Buffy once they find out he has the (now hatched) eggs. (Speaking of which, Spike exposing Riley at the suck house was done for his own interest rather than any true concern for Buffy.) And Spike's presence after Spike and Dru kidnapped the doctor meant for Riley with Spike then attempting to kill Buffy will always be discordant, as Buffy would've dusted him after that were it not for the ridiculous amounts of plot armor he had by then. And that's the big stuff he shouldn't survived, I can't imagine calling anyone a friend who regularly broke into my home to go through my drawers and steal my pictures.
 
Last edited:

BuffyBot22

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Tricky question.

Were Buffy and Angel friends?
Yes, they were very comfortable and vulnerable with each other in ways they weren't with anyone else.
They laughed and joked together.
They shared things with one another.
I think while they were lovers, they were also friends.

Could Buffy and Angel be just friends?
That's a hell no!
They were way too in love to ever just be friends.
Too much fire and passion there.
They could try, but they would get sucked back into old habits.

So it's a yes & no for me on them being friends.



Were Spike and Buffy friends?
I think in s7 they were friends.
They relied on each other and shared things with each other.

Were Spike and Buffy friends when they were sleeping together?
That's a murky/gray area...
But, I'm gonna go with no.
There wasn't any mutual respect.
There was no love, at least no pure love involved.
Buffy looked absolutely miserable
And Spike was too busy trying to get what he wanted to actually take the time to care about Buffy

So again, it's a yes & no for the friendship
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
And that's my answer to both now, Yes & No.

Mr Trick

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I went yes for both though it was a bit more tricky with Spike. Because of them being enemies for so long and the nature of their later relationship it was hard to decide. But certainly in S5 and even 7 you can see the sort of respect between the two that friends share.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Buffy and Angel were friends. Yes. Just because they had feelings for each other and because their friendship came jam packed with feelings doesn't mean they were not friends.

They talked to each other about their problems and their fears...




Provided comfort to each other:


Joked with each other


Could they have been better friends? Sure. Could they have been more open and honest with each other, yes. Did their feelings get in the way of that? Yes. But friendship is seldom if ever perfect.

I think Buffy and Spike were friends as well - in s7.
 
Spanky
Spanky
Why not?

Spanky

I'm came here to chew bubblegum and go off topic.
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They talked to each other about their problems and their fears...
Provided comfort to each other:
Joked with each other
Can't you say that abou Buffy and Spike in S5?
 

Andreana22

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There were times Spike tried to help in season 5. When he saw Buffy crying, he tried to comfort her. And in season six, before they got together, they talked about things she couldn't talk with her friends about. But later in season 6, she said she never trusted him and I don't think you can have true friendship without trust. I think she trusted Angel but not Angelus, so that's a little different.

I'm watching Buffy for the first time and just finished season 6, so it will be interesting to see how having a soul will affect Spike in season 7.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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Spike was a friend to Buffy from season 5 on, but it was on his side, not mutual. She could talk to him, and once she came back, she could lean on him and tell him her secret about heaven. He became someone she could depend on, though the relationship was still very onesided.

Buffy and Spike became mutual friends in season 7
You can only have a friendship with trust & comfortableness. Friends take care of each other. They also comunicate. I think the soul allows Buffy to let a mutual friendship develop over the course of that last year in Sunnydale.

I don't think Buffy & Angel were true friends. I do think they continued to care deeply, don't get me wrong. Once the relationship ended, they became allies more than friends, however. There was genuine affection, and bittersweet connection, but they couldn't really talk the way Buffy & spike, or Buffy & Tara or Buffy and the scoobies or even Buffy & Dawn did.

We never see them just talk. Mostly it was "discussion" about relationship stuff or whatever battle they were facing. The only exception to this, where you see her lean on him, is her mom's funeral.

Earlier in the relationship, Angel makes the decisions - including deciding to leave. "They" never make relationship decisions. Angel decides what she needs -"normal". He chooses to take the day back - not even telling her & keeping the memory from her. That always seemed like a huge violation of trust. It was fine that he didn't want to be weak... Not fine that he stole the day and kept it secret. So, not friends - because that highhandedness was a pattern. A friend doesn't control, decieve and manipulate repeatedly.
 

Fool for Buffy

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Part of me says Buffy can never be friends with Angel or Spike. Spike's speech in Lovers Walk was pretty dead on. But it of course depends on your definition of friends. If you can be in love and still considered friends, Buffy and Angel were for almost all of the first 3 seasons. And Buffy and Spike were in season 7. Couples who are completely in love with each other often say that not only are they lovers, they are each other's best friends. So if we are applying that logic she was friends with both. (Though with Spike it is much more evident in the comics than on the show, while with Angel it is pretty clear on the show)
 

Mrs Gordo

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We never see them just talk.
I disagree. We see examples of them talking about things unrelated to their relationships. Some examples are:
  • Lie to Me - Angel telling Buffy about his dark history with Dru. His obsession with her.
  • WML - Convo in her bedroom re feeling left out and wanting to be normal.
  • Ted - Convo about her mom and Ted's relationship
  • Lovers Walk - Convo about college
  • (I'll exclude Amends because so much of it is wrapped up in their complicated relationship but you could argue that this is Angel confessing his deepest darkest secrets regarding his biggest fears to Buffy)
  • Gingerbread - Convo regarding the futility of the fight and whether what they do makes a difference.
  • Helpless - Convo about Buffy's fears and concerns if she lost her powers and what it would mean to her
So I think they had the foundation of a friendship.
 
Ethan Reigns
Ethan Reigns
Add Earshot and their conversation about "aspects of the demon".

DeepBlueJoy

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I disagree. We see examples of them talking about things unrelated to their relationships. Some examples are:
  • Lie to Me - Angel telling Buffy about his dark history with Dru. His obsession with her.
  • WML - Convo in her bedroom re feeling left out and wanting to be normal.
  • Ted - Convo about her mom and Ted's relationship
  • Lovers Walk - Convo about college
  • (I'll exclude Amends because so much of it is wrapped up in their complicated relationship but you could argue that this is Angel confessing his deepest darkest secrets regarding his biggest fears to Buffy)
  • Gingerbread - Convo regarding the futility of the fight and whether what they do makes a difference.
  • Helpless - Convo about Buffy's fears and concerns if she lost her powers and what it would mean to her
So I think they had the foundation of a friendship.
All of this was during their relationship. If they hadn't talked at all, they wouldn't have been in a relationship. Before the relationship, he popped up to help, then vanished, so not friends then either. So... Were they a couple who talked? Yes. Did their friendship survive their relationship, I don't think it did. I think there was too much pain and not enough trust for that. But, of course, they cared and would care forever. But friendship is an interactive thing... and I don't EVER see Angel depend on Buffy. The closest they come to that was when he was poisoned and he wasn't really awake or aware for most of that. Buffy only really depends on him once as a friend/companion after their relationship, and that's when he comes for the funeral. Understand that I am NOT saying that either of them ever stop caring, but that the nature of their relationship was too fraught and Angel's personality was such that they couldn't be friends in any normal sense.

Angel was friends with Cordelia. He was friends with Wesley. He was friends with Gunn, Fred and Doyle, though not as much as with Cordelia and Wesley... His relationship with them wasn't transactional. It didn't depend on if they were in a 'relationship'. They had his back. He had theirs and not just in a battle... but even in the fight sense, Buffy and Angel didn't fight 'side by side', though they did fight on the same side. Angel's friendship with Buffy -- his supportive boyfriend role -- ended when he and Buffy ended. They were exes on good terms (most of the time), but they weren't friends in any meaningful way. When conversation needed to happen with people back in Sunnydale, it was between Cordelia and Willow... consider that for a moment, since we know just how little those two enjoyed each others company.

Actually, Amends may have been the most honest and open conversation they ever had. He laid bare who he really was and what he feared. So, in the plus column for friendship, I'd say it would definitely count. If they'd talked like that more... but they didn't.
 

Mrs Gordo

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All of this was during their relationship. If they hadn't talked at all, they wouldn't have been in a relationship.
As I understand it what you are saying is that if one is in a relationship, and they have a friendly conversation it doesn't count towards friendship? I guess I see it differently. In the conversations above they are not merely talking to each other about the weather, of what they did the night before, they are talking about deep and meaningful things that are bothering one or both of them. I consider that the foundation of a strong friendship to share those conversations, seek council/advice etc.

But friendship is an interactive thing... and I don't EVER see Angel depend on Buffy.
And you do see them interact - a great deal. Perhaps it is not to your liking- and that's fair after all there are interactions that I don't find appealing either. The early seasons tend to have more of a focus on telling the story through Buffy's perspective versus Angel's perspective (something which I enjoy because I tune in for her story...) I also don't agree that we don't see Angel depend on Buffy. Buffy has to rescue him in WML, Angel is completely reliant on Buffy when he returns from hell, he literally clings to her upon his return from hell, she brings him food and helps to rehabilitate him (and they aren't even a couple then), then he depends on her a great deal in Amends and in Graduation Day (given his respective situations). Similarly, Buffy depends on Angel in the early seasons for information, help in patrol, and earshot to name a few. The fact that they are intermittently in a romantic relationship doesn't diminish their friendship to me.

Buffy and Angel didn't fight 'side by side', though they did fight on the same side.
Sure they did. We see them patrol together in s2 numerous times before he loses his soul. Buffy makes mention in Passions that when something like this happens her first instinct is to run to Angel because he was her partner. Post Amends, Angel takes on the role of partner in a big way. They get together to try and help Faith, they team up in the charade to expose Faith's alliances, we see them fighting as a team in Choices (both at the beginning taking on vamps and in teaming up to steal the box); then of course we see Angel fighting with her literally in graduation day.

Much of your criticism appears to be that after they broke up (or really once Angel went on his own show) that we don't see them fighting side by side. Well logistically that just isn't going to happen often because they are titular characters on two different shows. But in crossovers we do see them fighting along side each other: In IWRY fighting the Mohra side by side, and tracking the demon together. We also see them fighting the watcher's assassins together (however reluctantly) in Sanctuary.

Do they continue to be friends today, that is debatable. They have been apart for a very long time and although they remain allies, as you say, they would need time to re-form a friendship. But if the question is were they ever friends, I believe the answer is yes.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
It pains me to say this, but I think Cordelia is the one who came the closest to being Angel's friend. It is so sad that Buffy could not get to know the man Angel became after Amends.

I am going by a very strict definition for friendship, because otherwise the question doesn't really make sense.
 

Mr Trick

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It pains me to say this, but I think Cordelia is the one who came the closest to being Angel's friend. It is so sad that Buffy could not get to know the man Angel became after Amends.

I am going by a very strict definition for friendship, because otherwise the question doesn't really make sense.
Which is all the more reason why those idiot writers should have kept them friends!:D
 

Spanky

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It pains me to say this, but I think Cordelia is the one who came the closest to being Angel's friend.
And that's why it would have been so good to see Cangel. The fact that Buffy and Cordy were friends. They would have gone from acquaintances to friends to colleagues to lovers. That is really rare for TV; certainly for WhedonTV.
 

Mr Trick

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And that's why it would have been so good to see Cangel. The fact that Buffy and Cordy were friends. They would have gone from acquaintances to friends to colleagues to lovers. That is really rare for TV; certainly for WhedonTV.
Not for me. Doing something because its different doesn't mean it works as drama. For me Cordy and Angel never worked as lovers.
 

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
I never saw Angel and Buffy as friends because they always had that tension between them and we saw in IWRY that if they had the opportunity, they would be together in a heart beat ;)

But I do think that Spike and Buffy were friends probably end of Season 5 and Season 7 (not 6). I see Season 7 as their way back together as friends first, trusting each others before becoming mutual respectful lovers.
 
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