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What are the Angel shows biggest problems

Btvs fan

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I think Lani from Chipperish has Angel best. Its highs were high and arguably higher than BtVS but its lows were lower .


For example for Lows in Angel S1 you had Expecting and She, 2 horrible episodes while Buffy had I in Team and Goodbye Iowa, a 2 parter about a character I don't care about and which drops that season off a cliff by bringing in Adam and killing Maggie Walsh.
Yet inspite of all 4 episodes being bad I could probably watch the Buffy ones over the Angel 2

Otoh The Faith 2 parter on Angel was far superior to the Faith 2 parter on Buffy which completely dropped the ball on Buffys own attempted murder of Faith and so was less deep.
 

Cheese Slices

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Fair enough. I was just pointing out the episode that got him a steady pay-check for 6 more years.
Good for him, but that's not indactive imo.
It's not a judgement on any one actor, just a reality. I would think it'd be easier to play a version of yourself than a believable stranger who has a coherent personality. The latter requires more thought and imagination, guidance from the writers etc.

For example DB is on the record that he had no idea how to play BtVS S1 Angel because the writers weren't 100% on his role yet, and it shows in his performance.
I don't know. I think both are difficult for different reasons.
As for Angel's characterization in S1, I'm sure it didn't help. However, he's not the only actor in the show with little visibility or certainty about his character's path & place in the story (in fact I'd say most cast members went through that at one point or the other), but that didn't stop them from giving good performances. But sure, he was just starting out as an actor and that must have been difficult for him, I'm willing to cut him a lot of slack for that.

wtf? Maybe chill out instead of taking one sentence and going overboard.

Note that I didn't address your initial post, you quoted me. If YOU want to have a discussion then by all means, but there's no need to be so defensive. We're just talkin'.
I feel like this is one of those situations where we're reading the other's tone right because we're writing and not talking ? I am very chill, and was very chill when I wrote my post. I was just trying to be playful/cheeky, sorry it didn't come across that way.
Anyway, I'm not being defensive, I'm trying to have a discussion which is why I quoted you. Apart from expressing a different/opposite pov, I'm not sure what part of my post was defensive, save the part where I'm responding to you calling me biased which I thought was uncalled for and/or pointless (we're all biased to some extent).
I mean, I gave an example of a character I dislike and yet still appreciate their acting. You actually quote and address my regarding Emma. So...answering you own question? Yep.
You gave one example of your alleged ability to completely separate performance and character preference, and I gave you one back. But my question still stands : are there no character for which you happen to dislike both the character itself and the performance ? Probably. How does that all tie together, is one point that I'm trying to discuss.

Maybe. Talking about acting ability on the show is probably one of the most subjective things to analyse regarding Buffy and the Angel spin-off. One person's fabulous immersive performance is another's eye-roller that didn't land for them. But there are degrees of acting talent, right?

Let's take just one barometer of an actor's ability; employment. By that standard I'd say that DB is either fooling a lot of people most of the time with his bad work (how many season of Bones?) or maybe he's lucky or perhaps he's actually not that bad. Room for some thoughtful analysis perhaps.
Hard disagree on this one. Of the millions of factors that enter wrt an actor's chance of getting their own show, talent ranks fairly low among them. There are thousands of talented actors who never get the chance to get a juicy role, and more than a handful of actors who get the lead without being particularly talented.
Again, subjective opinion here, but Bones is one of those shows that's quite mediocre and that doesn't bring much more than a steady paycheck to its actors. I'm sure it has its moments, but playing variations of same thing week after week is hardly a showcase of anyone's acting chops. A lot of tv shows last for 8+ seasons, how many of them are actually "good" beyond basic entertainment ?
If we follow your logic, then ASH, SMG and pretty much everyone who isn't DB or AH is a talentless hack.

I suppose I can, and yet I get the feeling that maybe some here can't.
As I mentioned previously, you're the one who brought up me being biased. I was suggesting that maybe you assuming that because of the preferences I've expressed in the past might constitute an example of "bias". And to that I might add that I've seen a lot of uber Angel fans expressing the same criticisms of DB's acting, so if you think my opinion is biased, what about theirs ?

At the end of the day, acting abilities are subjective, and I'm glad you enjoy DB's performance. However, I'm interested in the whole acting process and thought it might be interesting to discuss the finer points of what constitutes good or bad acting, see how much it differs from one person to the other and whether we can find common ground.
 
B
Btvs fan
What's your thoughts on what Lani and Kelly say

DeadlyDuo

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I think Connor and Cordelia were the show's biggest problems. The issues with Connor are obvious- he's a whiny little arsehole who should be much smarter than he is given that he had to survive in a demon dimension yet he's as thick as two short planks. The Conor/Cordelia pairing is just wrong on so many levels especially as she mothered him or a while plus isn't Conor supposed to be under 18?

Cordelia becomes a problem the moment she gets put in a romantic relationship with Angel. I don't think CC has much range and she never seems to divert from the Cordelia like personality when it comes to playing characters. Cordy was basically carried over to Angel because she was another recognisable face that would help sell the spinoff (it's no coincidence that so many characters from Buffy ended up on Angel on a regular basis) but she definitely outstayed her welcome. CC cutting her hair and dyeing it blonde aged her. With the brown hair, she was still believable as someone in their 20s (the age Cordelia was supposed to be), as soon as she went blonde she aged 10 years.
 

Antho

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Again, subjective opinion here, but Bones is one of those shows that's quite mediocre and that doesn't bring much more than a steady paycheck to its actors. I'm sure it has its moments, but playing variations of same thing week after week is hardly a showcase of anyone's acting chops. A lot of tv shows last for 8+ seasons, how many of them are actually "good" beyond basic entertainment ?
I just want to say that if the show lasted 12 seasons it definitely means that it has its fan base. It might not be your cop of tea, but doesn’t mean that it’s mediocre. I used to watch Bones and it’s not that bad. And bones being a policy series, there is of course the same schema that all the series of that kind have but it doesn’t mean that actors can’t diversify their acting or that they played the same character in the same way all the time. I have watched 9 seasons of Bones and the numbers of variations David played is phenomenal. He played all the emotions possible I think. And it is the case for all the actors in this show. Just want to say that.
And about a show being entertaining well that’s tell us nothing.. I know people for them Buffy is nothing more than a teen show they used to watch when they were 15 years old. See, it means nothing. It’s a special show for a lot of us and also for a lot of people it’s just a show « médiocre ».
 
Priceless
Priceless
Cop of tea :)

katmobile

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I can see both sides of Boreanz arguement - he's ok and can pull off what he's given but he isn't in Denisof's league or even close.

I suspect his career in TV is because he's a good team player that he bounces well off other people that he has good chemistry with his co-stars. Also Buffy and Angel gave him a fan base. It's not nothing but he isn't carrying anything by himself - Angel is really an ensemble, in Bones he was the lead's sort of sidekick/potential and Seal Team again sounds like ensemble show. He couldn't have done something like the updated Much Ado like Denisof did or play a larger than life satirical character like Nathan Fillion did in Dr Horrible. Just because you like a character or the actor he plays him doesn't mean he has to the best evar ....it's not the worse thing in the world if they're not as long they can do the job.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
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I just want to say that if the show lasted 12 seasons it definitely means that it has its fan base. It might not be your cop of tea, but doesn’t mean that it’s mediocre. I used to watch Bones and it’s not that bad. And bones being a policy series, there is of course the same schema that all the series of that kind have but it doesn’t mean that actors can’t diversify their acting or that they played the same character in the same way all the time. I have watched 9 seasons of Bones and the numbers of variations David played is phenomenal. He played all the emotions possible I think. And it is the case for all the actors in this show. Just want to say that.
And about a show being entertaining well that’s tell us nothing.. I know people for them Buffy is nothing more than a teen show they used to watch when they were 15 years old. See, it means nothing. It’s a special show for a lot of us and also for a lot of people it’s just a show « médiocre ».
Juste au cas où je précise que je voulais dire mediocre dans le sens anglais, c'est à dire "moyen" et pas "mauvais" comme (il me semble) en français. ^^
I hope I didn't offend you when I gave my opinion on Bones, I am glad you and others enjoy the show and I don't think they're "lesser" or have bad taste because of that, but yeah I just don't think the range of his role on there is comparable to any regular role on Buffy or Angel. That's the nature of procedurals, especially those that run for a decade. And I think David did his job well, but my point was more that it's not a very strong indicator of his talent/skills as an actor.

@Btvs fan I'll check it out and get back to you ;)
 
Antho
Antho
Non t’inquiètes pas il m’en faut un peu plus pour me vexer :)

nightshade

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Black Thorn
Can you please stick to English as it does come across as excluding people when you use another language. Feel free to talk in French in the French sub section of the boards though.
 
Antho
Antho
Sorry :)

Antho

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I just don't think the range of his role on there is comparable to any regular role on Buffy or Angel. That's the nature of procedurals, especially those that run for a decade. And I think David did his job well, but my point was more that it's not a very strong indicator of his talent/skills as an actor.
That’s where I disagree with you. I think I understand where you are coming from but It’s been 20 years that David is working on TV and he has been on 3 successful show, it means something to me. How many actors are still on TV since 20 years ? I guess not many. Of course that’s not saying David is an exceptional actor, I don’t think he is for that matters, but his acting seems to please to a majority of people if some producers give role to him and that his show lasts several years. You have some problem with his acting I get it and I don’t blame you, he doesn’t convince you and that’s fine it’s your right to feel that way.
Also maybe David is smart. A lot of actors see their career destroy because they wanted to do movie, cinema.. see SMG she wanted à career in cinema and what did she do since 20 years ? 2-3 movie that are mainly appreciated by her Buffy Fan base. I love SMG she definitely can act and I think she is very talented but she made poor choice that put down her career. On this point David is smart, he is on Tv since 20 years, he was/is on successful show.. briefly he is constant maybe because he knows what he can and can’t do.. he doesn’t evaluate in a higher way his strengths and he is right.
 
B
Btvs fan
SMG stuck to Teen/horror esq roles and never really branched away from that which probably didn't help. Who knows if Joss didn't put the boot in either with the "she's difficult to worl with" line either ?

DeadlyDuo

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I think the key to being a successful actor is keep your head down, do as you're told and don't piss anyone off. DB generally does that (he's certainly keeping his head down at the moment) and even though he might not be the greatest actor, nobody really has anything bad to say about him. He gets on with his work so he doesn't annoy his co-workers/directors which enables him to maintain a positive reputation in the industry, and he doesn't shoot his mouth off and belittle those who don't agree with him which means the audience don't dislike him so he's still a bankable actor.

CC's career hasn't been as successful as DB's. She caused issues on the Angel set and fell out with Joss which would've pissed off those in the industry and now she's dragging it all up again practically 20 years later all to jump on a bandwagon and it kind of makes her look petty. It doesn't seem like the Buffy fandom has rallied behind her in the way she was expecting. The fandom knew there were major issues between her and Joss which shows in Angel Season 4 but it's 17+ years ago so all she's really doing now is trying to stick the boot in rather than add anything new. Her acting is severely limited and she always seems to play the same type of character.
 
B
Btvs fan
Nothing bad said ! he had a harrasment Court Case agsinst him by one of his co stars

Cheese Slices

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That’s where I disagree with you. I think I understand where you are coming from but It’s been 20 years that David is working on TV and he has been on 3 successful show, it means something to me. How many actors are still on TV since 20 years ? I guess not many. Of course that’s not saying David is an exceptional actor, I don’t think he is for that matters, but his acting seems to please to a majority of people if some producers give role to him and that his show lasts several years. You have some problem with his acting I get it and I don’t blame you, he doesn’t convince you and that’s fine it’s your right to feel that way.
Also maybe David is smart. A lot of actors see their career destroy because they wanted to do movie, cinema.. see SMG she wanted à career in cinema and what did she do since 20 years ? 2-3 movie that are mainly appreciated by her Buffy Fan base. I love SMG she definitely can act and I think she is very talented but she made poor choice that put down her career. On this point David is smart, he is on Tv since 20 years, he was/is on successful show.. briefly he is constant maybe because he knows what he can and can’t do.. he doesn’t evaluate in a higher way his strengths and he is right.
FTR I was only speaking of his acting in Btvs/Ats as being a problem to me. As for the rest, you're right that it doesn't mean nothing that he's had steady work the past 20 years, but imo it's the kind of thing that's down to having a good agent, the right connections, the right looks, and dumb luck as much as it has to do with talent, if not more. Again, not saying he hasn't earned it or that he's bad at his job, just that how successful a career in Hollywood is is not directly proportional to the amount of talent an actor possesses.
Overall, while I think it's interesting to discuss these things, it's hard to directly compare Buffy alumni's careers because there are too many factors to take into consideration, including, I'm sure, many that we don't know about.
So back to my original point : DB as Angel failed to properly compel me, and that's too bad 😅
 

Antho

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but imo it's the kind of thing that's down to having a good agent, the right connections, the right looks, and dumb luck as much as it has to do with talent, if not more.
Agent find auditions. I don’t think there is « right looks ».. just that some looks will correspond better to some role. Depends on what the producers are looking for. Where you see luck I see people working, taking their chances.. an actor who pass an audition will not die if he doesn’t succeed, he is only trying, and if he succeed that’s not what I call luck !
And of course the talent is super important it’s what allow you to keep your job. Actually that’s what Allowed David to have his spin off.
We are going in circles, we disagree and that’s not grave, I respect your opinion ☺
 
Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
No problem... I don't think you're necessarily wrong, just that they are more aspects to it ;)

DeadlyDuo

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an actor who pass an audition will not die if he doesn’t succeed,
This reminds me of Seth MacFarlane who narrowly avoided being on one of the 9/11 planes because he was hungover and overslept.
 
Cheese Slices
Cheese Slices
that was true ? I remember Peter saying that on the show, didn't know it happened for real to McFarlane

Btvs fan

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FTR I was only speaking of his acting in Btvs/Ats as being a problem to me. As for the rest, you're right that it doesn't mean nothing that he's had steady work the past 20 years, but imo it's the kind of thing that's down to having a good agent, the right connections, the right looks, and dumb luck as much as it has to do with talent, if not more. Again, not saying he hasn't earned it or that he's bad at his job, just that how successful a career in Hollywood is is not directly proportional to the amount of talent an actor possesses.
Overall, while I think it's interesting to discuss these things, it's hard to directly compare Buffy alumni's careers because there are too many factors to take into consideration, including, I'm sure, many that we don't know about.
So back to my original point : DB as Angel failed to properly compel me, and that's too bad 😅
If we are just talking Buffy and Angel well for Buffy he was the Good looking Heartthrob love interest. That was simple marketing and they marketed him that way and it made money. The Buffy/Angel pic was on CD Covers and posters and books you name it.
He didn't need to act for that just be good looking. Hell Whedon on the DVD admits they only cast him because the women in the casting room turned to puddles when he came in. The character itself mainly did broody angst scenes Even the writers made fun of it (see Zeppo and Dopplegangland)

For Ats it was a bit different. He became an action hero. Sort of quasi Batman/Daredevil to Buffy's Spiderman. Again DB can do that, hes a big guy with the traditional lantern Jaw so yeah he can do that pretty good. So he comes in/beats the bad guy/ rescues the girl (often Cordelia) and saves the day.
Its where you come to wanting more than that with some depth that it gets tricky. Now he wasn't completely without any, watch the Crossover Darla and the "you damned me line" as proof but when you get episodes like Sleep Tight when you want real emotion and nuance thats where DB falls down he just can't do it.
Now he had some good actors around him. Glen Quinn then Alexis Denisof and then James Masters but for DB he had a skill set but it was limited.
To be fair to him he knew it and picked TV roles accordingly which is why he's got regular work. People mention Seal Team well again he's playing the action lead and he can do that.


Back to the Angel show itself I think the PTB and Wolfram and Hart were both big Mystery Boxes that weren't explained, didn't help the show. We never see either and we never know there motivations or why they are interested in Angel. Like I said just big Mystery boxes
 
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garfan

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I always found the ending and the claims the writers made about to be insanely weak. They demonstrate the fight never ends by choosing a battle they can't survive. That sure as hell seems like their fight is ending.
 

TriBel

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Adulthood is, quite frankly, fighting against the long defeat. Ultimately, they will lose, we all will, and Conor will take up the baton.
"Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light"...kinda thing? Works for me...and shorter than Dylan Thomas.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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The Long Defeat was Tolkien's phrase, for the struggle of remaining elves to defeat Sauron, then leave the hither shores to mortals. Of course, my favorite description of life is Tetris, where your victories are fleeting, and your mistakes just keep piling up.
 
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