1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

What are your issues with Riley?

Discussion in 'Season 4' started by Merrick, Mar 19, 2014.

  1. Mr. Pole

    Mr. Pole Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    13,834
    Likes Received:
    4,843
    Reputation:
    25,877
    Black Thorn
    Just as Buffy couldn't handle someone that wasn't a civilian. Buffy loved the idea of 'normal' Riley. Often bragging about him to her friends. How wonderful he was. How 'normal' he was. Then once she found out about the Initiative she kept her emotional distance from him. He was no longer her normal boyfriend. The more or less became work friends. With benefits, but still.

    How was Riley needy? I never saw him as needy. He never asked her to drop everything to cater to him. He asked her to SHARE with him. But sharing her emotions is something Buffy has never been good at.
     
    thetopher: Very good points. :)
    thetopher likes this.
  2. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,081
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,743
    Black Thorn
    I do think that the Scooby motivations were, to a large degree, selfish. Not consciously so - but it was understood that now that Buffy was back, well she could go back to keeping them all safe and they could go back to their more normal lives. Willow wanted credit and thanks, and it seemed everyone else just followed her - but if it was so hard to bring someone back, there had to be some way to find out where that person actually was.

    Dead Things - yeah. The episode where Buffy beats Spike into a bloody pulp because he doesn't want her to turn herself in for a crime she probably didn't commit....and she finds out moments later that she actually didn't commit the crime but she leaves him bleeding and unable to stand. And you're complaining that this particularl episode is a showcase of how worse Spike made things for Buffy?! Looks to me, in that one, that she gave a lot more than she got.

    I never said Spike and Buffy was a walk in the park -they were both as dysfunctional as a couple could be -individually and together. But I kinda prefer to look at the actions of both characters because making Buffy a poor pitiful victim just repels me. At least give her the respect to say she f*ked up, not that she was unable to escape abuse and never dealt any out.

    And I know all about you members of the ETWBFBINS - I even have the decoder ring!:D

    As for Riley - hell yes Spike was being selfish. I just say you need to look a bit deeper than that to see what was really going on.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 26, 2015 ---
    If he really cared about her then he would have realized Buffy didn't share easily and she had too much on her plate to start with.



    BUFFY
    (pained)
    And say what, Riley? What were
    you thinking? How long have you
    been lying to me?
    (then)
    Nothing you can say right now is
    going to make it better.
    She tries to move past him, but Riley grabs her - holds her fast.



    RILEY
    I realize that. I don't expect...
    I just need you to hear me out.
    A beat. Buffy relents a bit - but her expression remains hard.



    BUFFY
    Fine. But get your hands off me.
    She says this last with such pain and force that Riley unhands her. Buffy stands her ground, waiting for him to talk.



    RILEY
    I think - I... when this thing
    started, it was just some
    stupid, immature game.
    I wanted to even the score
    after you let Dracula bite you-



    BUFFY
    I did not let him-


    RILEY
    (cutting her off)
    I know. On some level I know
    that. But I was still spun, and,
    I don't know... I wanted to know
    what you felt, I wanted to know
    why Angel and Dracula had so
    much power over you-



    BUFFY
    (shakes her head)
    You so don't get it.
    Riley grows emphatic, trying so hard to be understood.



    RILEY
    Exactly. Which is why I let the
    first one bite me... I wanted to
    get it, Buffy. I wanted to get you-


    BUFFY
    So this is my fault? Gee, Buffy's
    so mysterious - I think I'll go almost
    die. I think I'll let some other woman...
    She stops, can't even say it.



    RILEY
    This isn't your fault. It's mine.
    And I feel like hell for what I've
    put you through. But it's just -
    these girls-


    BUFFY
    Vampires, killers.


    RILEY
    (ignoring)
    They made me feel something.
    Something I didn't even know
    I was missing until-

    Buffy starts past him again - this is too much.



    BUFFY
    I can't. I can't hear this-
    Riley grabs her by the arm again, desperate to get through to her, desperate to make her understand...



    RILEY
    You need to hear this-


    BUFFY
    (livid)
    Fine. Tell me about your whores.
    Tell me what on earth they've been
    giving you that I can't.


    RILEY
    They needed me, Buffy-


    BUFFY
    (cutting him off)
    They needed your money!
    It wasn't about you.


    RILEY
    No - on some basic level it was
    about me. My blood. My body.
    When they bit me, it was beyond
    passion... They wanted to devour
    me, all of me-



    BUFFY
    (pained)
    Why are you telling me this?


    RILEY
    It wasn't real. I know. It was
    just physical. But the fact that
    I craved it, that I kept going back...
    Even if it was fleeting - they made
    me feel like they had such hunger
    for me...

    It dawns on Buffy now what he's trying to say - and it hits her like a slap in the face.



    BUFFY
    And - I don't? Make you feel that way?
    Riley falls silent. That's what he's saying. Buffy's appalled.



    BUFFY
    How can you compare me to,
    to that? How can you say you
    understand what those vampires
    were feeling? You're not a passion
    to them, you're a snack! An idiotic,
    willing snack!


    RILEY
    I know exactly what they feel when
    they bite me - because I feel it every
    time we're together. It's like the whole
    world falls away - and all there is is you.



    BUFFY
    And you don't think I care that
    way about you? How dare you
    tell me-


    RILEY
    (cutting her off)
    You keep me at a distance Buffy.
    You didn't even call me when your
    mom went into the hospital.


    BUFFY
    I'm sorry I couldn't take care of you
    when I thought my mom was dying.



    RILEY
    It's about me taking care of you!
    It's about letting me in, so you
    don't have to be on top of
    everything all the time-


    BUFFY
    But I do. See, that's part of
    what a slayer is. And that's
    really what this is about. You
    can't handle that I'm stronger
    than you.



    RILEY
    It's hard sometimes, yes.
    But that's not it-


    BUFFY
    Then what? What do you want
    from me Riley? I've given you
    everything I have. Every part
    of me, body and soul-


    RILEY
    (anguished)
    You say that, but I don't feel it.


    BUFFY
    Well whose fault is that?
    Because I'm telling you -
    this is me. This is the
    package. And if it's so
    deficient that you need
    to get your kicks elsewhere
    then we have a real problem

    That is an addict blaming someone else for his own choices. There is nothing healthy in this conversation - Riley is telling Buffy that unless she changes he will continue to blame her and act out. Sorry - seen way too much of this behavior in reality to have even a drop of sympathy for someone who plays these games. Riley is not mentally healthy but while he pretends to believe it's just him, he is explaining how the fact that Buffy didn't notify him that she was taking her mother to the hospital was somehow a huge betrayal. He doesn't want to help her - he wants to be the priority in her life. And the fact that she won't go for it makes him decide to force the issue by hurting himself and blaming her. Do you really think that, if Spike hadn't shown Buffy what was going on that Riley would have stopped on his own?
     
    Slay me, Ethan Reigns and jom like this.
  3. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    5,955
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Moot, England
    Reputation:
    14,548
    Sineya
    But their main motivation was rescuing their friend, there may have been denial involved in not knowing where Buffy was, but they all wanted her back because they missed her, not because 'things were so hard now that their super-buddy was dead'. If it were that simple then there's Spike standing right there, and busting Faith out of prison would've been a sitch for somebody of Willow power-level at this time.

    And Willow wanted thanks, nobody else. Your describing Willow's motivations alone here- her sheer arrogance and wanting thanks and people being impressed. Did Xander want thanks?

    You can point to the beating, and I can point to Spike forcing himself on Buffy in a public place (this is pretty much rape) so no, I think that Buffy 'got it worse'.

    Remember that Spike deliberatly put himself in Buffy's path (because Spike doesn't believe that murder actually matters in the big scheme of things) and told her to 'put it all on him'. That's why she beat him.
    It's a horrible scene that shows her self-loathing actually. I can't remember her doing anything like this to Riley.

    Btw- I'm looking at my previous posts and can't see the part where I said that Buffy was blameless in S6. I actually said that it was stupid to get invlved with Spike and it was wrong to use him. Strange that.

    I agree, since I never said or even implied the other. Never said that Buffy was a pitiful victim,.
    I just said that Spike made her far more unhappy than Riley. But of course some of us must defend Spike's actions at all costs because they're part of the 'We-all- must-love-Spike-Club' (you guys don't even get a church, how sad is that? ;))

    Not really, the motivation is the thing that matters, not the unintended consquences of a person's actions. Spike wanted Riley gone and after he discovered what he was up to (because of all the stalking) he saw the oppurtunity he took it.
     
  4. Silverspike

    Silverspike Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    1,565
    Likes Received:
    756
    Reputation:
    2,757
    "I just said that Spike made her far more unhappy than Riley. But of course some of us must defend Spike's actions at all costs because they're part of the 'We-all- must-love-Spike-Club' (you guys don't even get a church, how sad is that?"

    *sigh* I thought this thread was meant to be about frick'n Riley, rather then more snark and bitching about Spike?

    I for one never had any problems with him. Infact out of all Buffy's suitors I thought he was the most appropriate.
     
  5. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    12,546
    Likes Received:
    6,864
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Stockholm, Swe
    Reputation:
    41,751
    Black Thorn
    Initially my issue with Riley was that to me he came across as rather pompous. Mr. Initiative and his cronies... and on the flip side of that I thought he was boring (and more shallowly couldn't stand that horrible boyband haircut! And cheesy dialogue like "You don't know much about women." "You're going to teach me!" Blergh!) But those things got better as season 4 went along.

    When I first watched season 5 I really, really minded Riley's neediness as demonstrated in the dialogue that @bespangeled posted above (and I still hate him in that scene) but during re-watches I came to understand Riley's side of it all (at least until the vampiric suckfest, lets just say I could understand his emotional side of it). It is hurtful when the person you love don't trust you/turn to you in times of need because bottom line is - that really says something about your relationship! And it doesn't say something good... I don't think he's right to blame Buffy for all of their problems, but I can see his point.
     
  6. jom

    jom Potential

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Reputation:
    262
    Why the most appropriate?
     
  7. Silverspike

    Silverspike Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    1,565
    Likes Received:
    756
    Reputation:
    2,757
    He's human and has mad fighting skills and kows all about the supernatural side of Sunnydale.

    Also he genuinely seemed like a nice lad to me.
     
  8. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    5,955
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Moot, England
    Reputation:
    14,548
    Sineya
    That was the entire point of my post- trying to relate it back to the subject at hand. i.e-Riley.

    Do try and keep up. ;)
     
    Silverspike: "Do try and keep up" Ditto. :D
  9. jom

    jom Potential

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Reputation:
    262
    i thought you meant spike was the best suitor


    I think they made a mistake with Riley, to be honest i would had preferred that Buffy would had stayed single till the relationship with Spike.

    I like Spike, i think he and buffy ship could had gone better. I like spike lovey dovey for buffy, their mutual abusive relationship was weird, something was missing there. Season 7 Spike was good for Buffy, i think he should had gotten at least one night with Buffy
     
  10. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,081
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,743
    Black Thorn
    It is hurtful, it really is. But I think it usually means you're with the wrong person. If someone has to insist on fundamental changes to stay in the relationship then they really aren't in love. We all know that Buffy doesn't share well - if Riley had been willing to see that he might have been able to adjust. But sorry - self harm, conscious and knowingly, is not love. It is manipulation. Since that's the door he chose, I have to say there is basically a fundamental flaw in his coping skills. He is telling her how she must behave if she wants him to stay - I think he's both self centered and self righteous -

    Someone like Riley needs an Iowa corn fed girl to have his babies and cook his meals - someone like his mother.
     
    jom likes this.
  11. jom

    jom Potential

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Reputation:
    262
    yeah the guy was never for Buffy, he was for Xander thou;). The guy wanted a--me strong, you weak, me protect you--type of relationship, that was never gonna fly with Buffy.
     
    bespangeled likes this.
  12. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Messages:
    9,716
    Likes Received:
    4,840
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, UK
    Reputation:
    8,158
    But Spike's argument for showing Buffy Riley's night time activities is because she has the right to know. Whether you believe that is another matter, but he seems to handle it in quite a sensitive manner to me.

    I do see Riley as being very needy and overbareing. Not to mention the fact that his way of dealing with demons is very different to Buffy's. And I do think he is too plain, and down the line for her.
     
    bespangeled likes this.
  13. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,081
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,743
    Black Thorn
    Spike was with them - they still brought Buffy back. And yes - I put this mainly on Willow but the others all had doubts and still went along with it.


    No - no one gets to say that. Being grabbed in public is not even within the same solar system as rape. Even what happened in the AR was not rape. I think you should attend meetings at your local rape crisis center and listen in on group therapy if you need any proof of that. .

    Well, one of those people has a soul. We are supposed to expect more from the souled - basic b-verse. And she did exactly this to Faith, over some of the same issues. As for Buffy being called blameless - sorry, my bad. I reread and realized I had misinterpreted what you said. As for Spike not caring about murder - well yeah, he's an evil soulless demon. But he was willing to take the job of punching bag - very unhealthy. Sadly Riley never got to the point of volunteering to be punching bag. He could have really guilt tripped Buffy on that one.



    No church - we manage just fine with the wet bar and the sea food. I hope your pews aren't too hard, and your services aren't too long.:cool:



    I agree with this - though I disagree that motivation is important. Buffy needed to know what was going on regardless of how or why she found out. If Riley had been turned, he presented a real problem.
     
  14. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    12,546
    Likes Received:
    6,864
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Stockholm, Swe
    Reputation:
    41,751
    Black Thorn
    Oh I agree that it means that you're with the wrong person, that's what I meant with my comment that it didn't say anything good about their relationship.
    But that was kind of the whole point of that storyline - to get Buffy and Riley to break up. I never said anything that he wasn't manipulating her or that it was love or anything else that your post states, in fact I agreed with you about the dialogue you posted.... I simply also said that I can see his side of it. Leaving was the best thing he did for both of them, probably mostly for himself. He needed to grow up and learn how to cope.

    I don't know, he seems to be doing pretty well with Sam.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 26, 2015 ---
    Noooo, it's Graham! ;) Human, nice lad, knows all the supernatural stuff and seems less insecure. ;) Riley was a good warm-up, but Graham should take over now. :D
     
    thetopher and bespangeled like this.
  15. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,081
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,743
    Black Thorn
    Not all that sure about Sam - she said it took Riley a year to get over Buffy and yet there they were - happily married - and less than a year after Riley took off. :rolleyes:
     
    jom likes this.
  16. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    12,546
    Likes Received:
    6,864
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Stockholm, Swe
    Reputation:
    41,751
    Black Thorn
    Haha, fair enough... I do think it's kind of silly that he came back married - he could've just been dating her really - but to me Sam at least suggests that after dating Buffy he will not be happy with the kind of woman you described.
     
  17. Silverspike

    Silverspike Scooby

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    1,565
    Likes Received:
    756
    Reputation:
    2,757
    "Noooo, it's Graham!"

    Oh lord no! I found him to be so damn dull I'm afraid.

    "Not all that sure about Sam - she said it took Riley a year to get over Buffy and yet there they were - happily married - and less than a year after Riley took off. :rolleyes:"

    Well maybe Sam was Mrs re-bound. I mean look at Buffy with Parker.
     
  18. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    5,955
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Moot, England
    Reputation:
    14,548
    Sineya
    Are there not different kinds of rape? Rape is lack of consent with one of the partners. It doesn't have to be physically violent, it can be emotional manipulation. For example, rape in marriage happens without the need for physical violence, its about control/dominance.

    And the AR was exactly that attempted rape- motivation matters in all these cases. That was Spike's motivation in that scene. The fact that Buffy fought him off doesn't excese Spike of any of his behaviour.
    But he is a demon so I really shouldn't be shocked by his behaviour- I just didn't want to see it is all.

    Like I said, it's a super-cool bunker with lounge chairs and charts onthe wall. Get it right, 'kay. :cool:

    Riley to Buffy: 'Hit me, Buffy. Hit me.' Right in that scene you quoted earlier. Riley so desperately wanted what Spike got- ironically enough.

    I think there may be something in the way Buffy opens up emotionally to people who have tried, at one point or another, to try and kill her. Something about the death-dealing/violent life of a slayer mixed in with all the love.hurt stuff.
    It was like that with Angel to a small degree, it was there with Faith (although there was no romance exactly, there ws emotional intensity) and its there with SPike but not Riley. Maybe that's what Riley wanted?
     
    The Bronze: "Rape is lack of consent with one of the partners. It doesn't have to be physically violent, it can be emotional manipulation."... or deception
    Ethan Reigns: Buffy needed to meet Holden Webster earlier. He is the only one that could figure it out in about 15 minutes - not the psych major Riley.
  19. jom

    jom Potential

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    368
    Likes Received:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Reputation:
    262
    no it wasn't.

    The Spike-Buffy relationship was a weird situation, she had come back from heaven and didnt know how to deal with it.

    Buffy doesnt need violence to be in a loving relationship which is what she had with Angel. Buffy did give everything she could to Riley, he just could not handled his not measuring up insecurities.
     
  20. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    5,955
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Moot, England
    Reputation:
    14,548
    Sineya
    It's not about violence exactly, but there is a link between the emotional intensity of those relationships I mentioned that was utterly lacking with Riley. Buffy was always keeping secrets from Riley and that ultimately affected their relationship. (Partly because secrets are generally bad and partly because of Riley's mas sof insecurity)
    Does it excuse what Riley did? Absolutely not, he's an idiot to do and react the way he did, but the fact is that Buffy still kept part of herself closed off from him that she never did with Angel (vampire), Faith (slayer) or Spike (vampire).
    That is a pattern there is all I'm saying.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 26, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 26, 2015 ---
    The Bronze: "Rape is lack of consent with one of the partners. It doesn't have to be physically violent, it can be emotional manipulation."... or deception

    Riley doesn't think what Faith did to him was rape. He's in his right mind both when it happened and also when he later talks with Faith. That to me ends the discussion.

    On the other hand both Spike and Buffy behaved pretty terribly towards each other so that, even in S10 Buffy is still saying how awful/painful the whole thing was. That's the difference, the scars are still there for both of them.
    However, soulled Spike is not responsible for any of the harm that unsoulled Spike caused. That to me ends the discussion. :)
     
    The Bronze: I just noticed how similar that line looked to my line of reasoning previously. Agreed no need to go into it again :-)