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What if Buffy remembered IWRY?

Icequeen1

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Yes I do think things would have changed for the better as buffy would of realised how much Angel loved her and unable to move on from him. She also would've been mad at him for taking away their happiness as humans together but understood his reasons for giving up humanity. They would have eventually talked and kept in touch and probably looked into the curse as they can't stand to be apart. Ultimately Angel would have been there for all the major battles that followed and sacrificed himself to stop buffy from jumping into the portal to close it in the gift and probably turn human after dying.
 

Btvs fan

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She would have been justifiably angry with Angel at what was done to her imo
 
RachM
RachM
But nothing was done to her. Angel time travelled to prevent events from happening so that he never became human. He didn't tamper with her mind or make her forget. The Buffy who leaves his office never lived the day that Angel remembers.

telperion66

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Do you think things would have played out differently for Buffy if she remembered what happened in I Will Remember You? How?

Haha, one of the all time great "what if?" questions that remains from the Buffyverse.

I think that there's no way that Angel and Buffy could have stayed separate if she had remembered.

For Angel to remember is a beautiful narrative device that he carries forever in his heart, but its also a massive burden to his soul. For Buffy to have gone through the same ordeal, given that she is younger but also human, would have been too much for her to bear in my opinion given their history together and feelings for each other.
 

Ceadsearc03

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Apr 10, 2019
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Yes - I don’t think she could have walked away again after that. But I also think she would have been incredibly upset. However, I think they would have at least kept in closer contact. The events of Sanctuary would have played out differently. I doubt she would have jumped into a relationship with Riley as quickly.
 

white avenger

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I've read several fan fiction scenarios concerning this, and it never ended out well for Angel. Of course, almost exclusively, they were written fron either a Spuffy or Fuffy point of view, so might be considered somewhat biased simply because of that single fact. I, personally, would imagine that Buffy would have been immensely P O'ed at Angel for making a decision like that without ever consulting her, since it effected her as much, if not more, than it did him. The big question in my mind would be whether or not she would ever be able to forgive him, or at least see his reasoning in doing what he did.

Given the fact that she actually did later forgive another vampire who tried to rape her, I think that she would eventually forgive him. Of course it took something extremely drastic (willingly and at great personal risk actually regaining his soul) to the point of performing an act that the world had never seen before, for her to forgive Spike, so I have no idea what Angel could do that would be capable of comparing with that.
 
Angel6
Angel6
I would strongly dispute that Angel was at fault at all in this scenario. To suggest Buffy wouldn’t understand his decision is pretty uncomplimentary to her.

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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@Btvs fan

How is it a cop out? It's just the truth of what happened.

This wasn't a Tabula Rasa deal. The Oracles didn't alter anyone's memories. They literally rewound the day so that Angel could kil the demon before it made him human. Angel changed events not memories. Therefore, he didn't do anything to Buffy. She leaves his office with her mind unaffected and untouched.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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@Btvs fan

How is it a cop out? It's just the truth of what happened.

This wasn't a Tabula Rasa deal. The Oracles didn't alter anyone's memories. They literally rewound the day so that Angel could kil the demon before it made him human. Angel changed events not memories. Therefore, he didn't do anything to Buffy. She leaves his office with her mind unaffected and untouched.
it's immaterial whether he mind wiped her, or took away her day... the point is he took away her SAY and her CHOICE. He was the only one with agency. He has further kept it secret (which means deception as well). Her future was stolen no matter how it occurred. I think she's be pissed. I think she'd feel he'd treated her like a child. Could she forgive? maybe, but this is not the only time Angel decides for her (or others, btw). I think if he believes he knows the right answer (or when he's afraid of the answer) he will make a decision for the other person in question. I think that's a deeper issue than just the one day, but the day is huge. Someone stole her reality without giving her a say. BTW, we do know she's not happy about it... in the few remaining seconds before things rewind, we see her reaction, and it's not a happy one.
 
Annie Hall
Annie Hall
I agree, Buffy doesn't like people making decisions for her and Angel tends to do it. I wish she could have remembered this day, but since he made a choice for her, I'm happy to see Spuffy happen.As much as I loved Bangel, I didn't like his attitude.

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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it's immaterial whether he mind wiped her, or took away her day... the point is he took away her SAY and her CHOICE. He was the only one with agency.
Yes, but given the choice was about him and his being, his vampirism ... shouldn't we be okay with him making this choice alone? Yes, it meant that he couldn't be with Buffy and yes, he probably should have consulted her, but at the end of the day, nothing about the situation was actually about her specifically. Angel making the choice to become a vampire again is his.

Let's say that Buffy had the chance to give up her Slayer-ness and somehow that would enable her to be with Angel, but she decided, without consulting him, to remain a Slayer. Would we be saying that she "stole his future"? No, we'd probably be talking about Women's Rights and how it's her body and choice. But we don't give Angel the same consideration.
He has further kept it secret (which means deception as well). Her future was stolen no matter how it occurred.
Saying "her future was stolen" is a little dramatic. In actuality, the argument could be made that Angel saved her life with his actions, given that he was told by the Oracles (who are essentially conduits to TPTB who have a birds’ eye view of Angel’s and Buffy’s fate) that Buffy will die because of this altered fate.

"The Mohra demon said the end of days had begun. That others were coming, soldiers of darkness. I need to know if he was telling the truth."
"As far as such things can be told."
"What happens to the Slayer when these soldiers come?"
"What happens to all mortal beings. Albeit sooner in her case."
"She’ll die? Then I’m here to beg for her life."

Now, sure, one could make the argument that the Oracles are simply stating that Buffy will die young due to being the Slayer, as the conversation is a little cryptic and we all know that Slayers die premature deaths. However, consider what I’ve just said – the Oracles know what’s to come, they know the paths yet to unfold. When Angel offers to trade his life for Buffy’s the female Oracle is moved enough to grant his wish, saying that he is willing to trade his happiness and life for Buffy’s and that they will grant him his wish because of the strength of his heart and love for Buffy. Why would they allow him to use a temporal fold – which they say are not to be used lightly – unless changing him back would alter Buffy’s fate? If Buffy was going to die either way, there would be nothing to gain by allowing Angel to revert to his vampire form and they would more than likely deny his wish because it wouldn’t change anything. No, they allow him to change time because him being human has altered fate enough that Buffy will die early as a result.

As for keeping it a secret, of course he kept it a secret. Why would he burden her with such knowledge? Why would he put her through such pain? This was Angel's burden to bear and he bore it because he loved her so much. Why do people always twist this episode into something so ugly?

Annie Hall I agree, Buffy doesn't like people making decisions for her and Angel tends to do it. I wish she could have remembered this day, but since he made a choice for her, I'm happy to see Spuffy happen.As much as I loved Bangel, I didn't like his attitude.

Ah yes, it's so much better for Buffy to end up with someone who abused and sexually assaulted her, over someone who made one decision without her. I'm so glad she ended up with such a prince.
 

Annie Hall

Bangel/Spuffy... Loving love
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Annie Hall I agree, Buffy doesn't like people making decisions for her and Angel tends to do it. I wish she could have remembered this day, but since he made a choice for her, I'm happy to see Spuffy happen.As much as I loved Bangel, I didn't like his attitude.

Ah yes, it's so much better for Buffy to end up with someone who abused and sexually assaulted her, over someone who made one decision without her. I'm so glad she ended up with such a prince.
She ends up with a man who realizes that he cannot love her in a healthy way without a soul, she ends up with somebody who goes against his nature to be better for her and give her what she deserves, a champion that worshippers the floor she steps in and who is happy being her hero instead of being the world’s savior. So yeah, he makes an almost unforgivable mistake, but a fair comparison isn’t Souless!Spike and Angel, it is Ensouled!Spike and Angel. Ensouled!Spike doesn’t leave her for her own good, he goes down fighting by her side. And I don’t read the comics, so for me their story ends there and it’s not perfect, but he sticks by her side till the end, which is nice for a change.

And I’m pretty sure that we’ll have to agree to disagree in the way we perceive both relationships because I really don’t have the time nor the willingness to engage in a Bangel vs. Spuffy discussion. I’m not changing my point of view and you’re obviously entitled to yours. I still agree with @DeepBlueJoy's post.
 
Thieving gypsy
Thieving gypsy
I must have missed the conversation Spike had with Buffy about if she wanted him to go get a soul for her.

BaskingINBangel

"Peanut butter, preferably crunchy!"
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it's immaterial whether he mind wiped her, or took away her day... the point is he took away her SAY and her CHOICE. He was the only one with agency.
I don't feel that Buffy has, or should have a say in this decision. I feel like Angel should be the only one with agency in this situation since it was his blood that mixed with the Morah demons blood. He gets to make the decision as to whether or not he stays human.

Angel was not really given the option of going home and discussing it with Buffy. The Oracles gave him a take it or leave it kind of decision with very little time for him to mull it over. He made the decision (which is entirely his decision to make) that he felt most comfortable with at that moment.

Angel is a champion and has dedicated his life to trying to make a difference. He tells Doyle in the very next episode that he doesn't belong to himself, and that he belongs fighting the good fight. If he doesn't want to give up that part of himself just to stay human, that is his decision and only his.
 
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KatrinaL

"I'm not strong. I'm not an Amazon. I'm just me."
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Why do people always twist this episode into something so ugly?
I'd say that "people" have a different interpretation of what happened. I personally disagree with you and agree with @white avenger, @Btvs fan, @DeepBlueJoy and @Annie Hall. I simply have a different POV, I'm not "twisting" anything. Why is it so difficult to understand that we're allowed to perceive a show, the characters and the plots in an alternative way? After all, that's why we discuss the show, right? To express our opinions and to answer a question/discuss a topic posed by a BB member.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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I'd say that "people" have a different interpretation of what happened. I personally disagree with you and agree with @white avenger, @Btvs fan, @DeepBlueJoy and @Annie Hall. I simply have a different POV, I'm not "twisting" anything. Why is it so difficult to understand that we're allowed to perceive a show, the characters and the plots in an alternative way? After all, that's why we discuss the show, right? To express our opinions and to answer a question/discuss a topic posed by a BB member.
Sorry, you're right, of course everyone is allowed their own interpretation.

I just often feel (especially with this episode) that many fans often try to "dirty" the Bangel relationship in ways which just aren't (IMO) true. Like, there are def problematic aspects to the Bangel relationship which can't be denied, but I don't feel that this episode is one of them and because I always read Angel's actions in this episode to be noble (if a little misguided) it does, at times, feel to me that fans are twisting his actions to paint him as the bad guy, when all he did was make a choice about his own body and his own life.

But I was wrong to express my thoughts in such an exasperated/irritable way.
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
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As for keeping it a secret, of course he kept it a secret. Why would he burden her with such knowledge? Why would he put her through such pain? This was Angel's burden to bear and he bore it because he loved her so much. Why do people always twist this episode into something so ugly?
I don't know ... because Buffy is not a child, mayhaps?
 
RachM
RachM
But she is someone he loves and people try to shield the ones they love from pain if they can. It's got nothing to do with her "not being a child" and everything to do with Angel trying to spare her pain (cause he's already caused her enough of that)

Annie Hall

Bangel/Spuffy... Loving love
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@Thieving gypsy I must have missed the conversation Spike had with Buffy about if she wanted him to go get a soul for her.

Just because tomorrow I’ll forget to answer (most likely)…

Sure, she didn’t ask. But unlike Angel, he didn’t take away her agency to decide whether or not she wanted him in her life post-soul. He wanted to leave, she asked him to stay. I’m pretty sure the argument has been made tons of times. But the way I perceive it is that he was unconditionally there for her, but she had the final word (once the First stopped making him crazy). But we can go back into the usual circular arguments, and I’ll throw back the fact that Angel never asked her what she wanted (the argument made as of why Buffy would be angry/disappointed/sad at Angel, as she was when he left Sunnydale)… or did I miss it the same way you missed her asking Spike to get a soul?

this is not a Bangel vs Spuffy thread, so TTFN.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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@RachM

No. You shield a shield a child, but you don't shield your partner. Angel snuck off to fight the demon alone, he went to see the Oracles alone and he deleted Buffy's happiest day without consulting her. Angel may be blinded by his martyr complex, but if had stopped to think, he would realise how messed up it was.

And I am not sure Angel made the right choice. Buffy realised the First lied to Angel, just like the Oracles are almost definitely playing Angel here. There story does not add up otherwise, and the setup-up is very similar to the trick Skip plays on Cordy to seasons on. If Buffy and Angel had talked it over, they would have realised that there is something seriously fishy about the whole thing.
 
BuffyForever85
BuffyForever85
Absolutely agree.
RachM
RachM
Maybe it's just me, but I would shield *anyone* I loved from potential pain (if it were in my power to do so) regardless of age or relationship. So we'll agree to disagree on this one.
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@Thieving gypsy I must have missed the conversation Spike had with Buffy about if she wanted him to go get a soul for her.

Just because tomorrow I’ll forget to answer (most likely)…

Sure, she didn’t ask. But unlike Angel, he didn’t take away her agency to decide whether or not she wanted him in her life post-soul. He wanted to leave, she asked him to stay. I’m pretty sure the argument has been made tons of times. But the way I perceive it is that he was unconditionally there for her, but she had the final word (once the First stopped making him crazy). But we can go back into the usual circular arguments, and I’ll throw back the fact that Angel never asked her what she wanted (the argument made as of why Buffy would be angry/disappointed/sad at Angel, as she was when he left Sunnydale)… or did I miss it the same way you missed her asking Spike to get a soul?

this is not a Bangel vs Spuffy thread, so TTFN.
You're making this a Bangle vs Spuffy thing. I didn't even mention Angel. My comment was "I must have missed the conversation Spike had with Buffy about if she wanted him to go get a soul for her." So, instead of trying to shift blame back to Angel. How about you don't make this a Bangel vs Spuffy thing, and just reply to my original comment?
 
Annie Hall
Annie Hall
I’m sure you missed it, but I did answer, go back to read my response. And you’re right, I shouldn’t have ended the post with a rhetorical question bringing Angel back into the topic of “What if Buffy remembered IWRY?”

WillowFromBuffy

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I don't think getting the soul is the best comparison, because I don't think Buffy would have wanted to stop Spike if she knew what he was up to. Better examples are helping Dawn resurrect Joyce, offering Buffy money from his demon egg scheme and dumping Katrina's body in the river.

I like to imagine that a new timeline was created in IWRY, just like it did with the Wishverse, so that a Buffy and a still human Angel remained behind when time was turned back.

Elaboration: In Doppelgangland, Anya and Willow are able to pull a second Willow from a timeline that shouldn't exists anymore. If that timeline can exists, then maybe there still exists a timeline where Angel remained human after going to the Oracles and time never turned back. I can't explain it better. I am not good with time paradoxes.
 
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BuffyForever85
BuffyForever85
I’m sorry, but I don’t quite follow your argument, could you elaborate a tad more?
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