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What if Buffy remembered IWRY?

Joined
May 26, 2019
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32
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35
I don't think getting the soul is the best comparison, because I don't think Buffy would have wanted to stop Spike if she knew what he was up to. Better examples are helping Dawn resurrect Joyce, offering Buffy money from his demon egg scheme and dumping Katrina's body in the river.

I like to imagine that a new timeline was created in IWRY, just like it did with the Wishverse, so that a Buffy and a still human Angel remained behind when time was turned back.

Elaboration: In Doppelgangland, Anya and Willow are able to pull a second Willow from a timeline that shouldn't exists anymore. If that timeline can exists, then maybe there still exists a timeline where Angel remained human after going to the Oracles and time never turned back. I can't explain it better. I am not good with time paradoxes.
Oh, I see what you mean. I think that the problem is that the discussion unraveled into a different direction. A member mentioned that they liked Spuffy because they didn’t like Angel’s attitude in this episode. The response to that comment was about the qualities of Spike as a potential partner, which was answered as of why Spike wasn’t the monster described and which comparison should be considered fair by the first member. Leading to the ensuing discussion of whether Buffy asked Spike to get a soul. Not time paradox at all, just plain same old discussion.

But yes, we don’t know exactly what would have happened. Maybe Buffy and Angel would have worked it out, so Ensouled!Spike would have never happened, or maybe it would have been the last straw for Buffy’s relationship with Angel, still leading somehow to an scenario where Spike gets his soul. I’d personally prefer the second scenario, but the first scenario would be more likely to have happened. But it totally depends on the reaction of Buffy to Angel's decision and his final choice, I agree that remembering is Buffy's prerogative but being human or a vampire is Angel's decision.
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
Now I'm the one who's confused. To clarify: The first paragraph in my post does not relate to the two following ones. They are two completely unconnected ideas. Paragraph 1 is: Spike also did things in secret. Paragraph 2 is: Wouldn't this be cool?
Joined
Feb 24, 2019
Messages
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I don't think getting the soul is the best comparison, because I don't think Buffy would have wanted to stop Spike if she knew what he was up to. Better examples are helping Dawn resurrect Joyce, offering Buffy money from his demon egg scheme and dumping Katrina's body in the river.
I just think it's interesting to see the people condemning Angel are the first to hail Spike a hero for doing the same thing. For this, Buffy's response isn't the issue, its how the 'decision maker' is treated. My original comment was to someone simply trashing Angel because it suits their ship to do so. I put Spike under the same harsh light they had on Angel, an yeah, it was no shock to see the go to was to push the light back on Angel and then talk around what i asked.

If Buffy did somehow remember this day that didn't happen? Well, i'm sure she would have felt sad and hurt, but most of all, a great sense of loss. Loss of a life that was never to be. But like when Angel broke up with Buffy, after some reflection, she came to understand and accept it, so i just don't see the blind hatred others think he's owed. The only thing in the show i can see changing from Buffy remembering IWRY, is the Chosen conversation she has with Angel. Instead of making Angel act like a dick to fill some time, they might have shared a moment of thinking back on what never was.
 

WillowFromBuffy

To be or not to evil.
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I just think it's interesting to see the people condemning Angel are the first to hail Spike a hero for doing the same thing. For this, Buffy's response isn't the issue, its how the 'decision maker' is treated. My original comment was to someone simply trashing Angel because it suits their ship to do so. I put Spike under the same harsh light they had on Angel, an yeah, it was no shock to see the go to was to push the light back on Angel and then talk around what i asked.
What am I supposed to do with this? Do you need a hug?
If Buffy did somehow remember this day that didn't happen? Well, i'm sure she would have felt sad and hurt, but most of all, a great sense of loss. Loss of a life that was never to be. But like when Angel broke up with Buffy, after some reflection, she came to understand and accept it, so i just don't see the blind hatred others think he's owed. The only thing in the show i can see changing from Buffy remembering IWRY, is the Chosen conversation she has with Angel. Instead of making Angel act like a dick to fill some time, they might have shared a moment of thinking back on what never was.
The only thing Buffy could use the memory of her happiest day would be to talk about it with Angel in "Chosen"?

They say it is better to have love and lost. Maybe Buffy needed to know that she was capable of the kind of contentment she experienced when she told Angel she feels like a normal girl with a normal boyfriend.

Anyway, I don't buy this utilitarian argument. Lying to your partner to protect them because you know best is wrong on principle. I don't think partners need to tell each other everything. We all deserve a private life, even from our SO. Still, the I-love-you-too-much argument is terrible. You can't have anything resembling a symmetrical relationship with that kinda attitude.

And as I've said before, I am not convinced Angel makes the right choice. The first thing he does in secret is go fight the Mohra demon by himself. He hasn't had time to get used to his new body and he goes to fight an elite demon assassin that proved a match against both Buffy and his vampire self. And he tells Cordy to lie for him. Buffy could have woken up to find him dead.

And in "Sanctuary," he uses Buffy's words against her, when he says: "That was your idea, remember? We stay away from each other." It is a horrible thing to say, knowing that Buffy would do anything for the two of them to be together, and Buffy can't do anything but feel bad, because she no longer knows what originally happened the last time they met.
 
S
Stephan
hugs and puppies for everyone!
Thieving gypsy
Thieving gypsy
I tell you what, you have a good read of Step by Step: How to give hugs, and I'll grit my teeth and bear through one just to help you out.

Octavia

My arse is not pansy!
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Sineya
Buffy would never be able to eat ice cream or peanut butter and chocolate again without crying. A vamp will find out this secret and use chocolate coated ice cream balls as missiles, smothered in peanut butter for extra sticking power to distract her in a fight. Luckily Willow has designed a spell to make Buffys tears into holy water and said vamp would burn a bit before being dusted. Buffy still wins.
 
S
Stephan
I like the way you think! :D

white avenger

white avenger
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Reverse the situation, have Buffy be the one to make the decision that would take away his greatest hope for happiness by restoring her Slayer powers because she thought that Angel would not somehow die trying to protect her. No one would ever know what might have happened. Now, Angel somehow finds out about it. Does he forgive her, because her intentions were pure, even if the results were something that he would not have wanted?

Or would his reaction be something similar to how he acted when Wes took Connor?
 

Ceadsearc03

Potential
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Apr 10, 2019
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113
Reverse the situation, have Buffy be the one to make the decision that would take away his greatest hope for happiness by restoring her Slayer powers because she thought that Angel would not somehow die trying to protect her. No one would ever know what might have happened. Now, Angel somehow finds out about it. Does he forgive her, because her intentions were pure, even if the results were something that he would not have wanted?

Or would his reaction be something similar to how he acted when Wes took Connor?
He forgave her for Hell so I don’t see how he wouldn’t forgive her for that.
 

katmobile

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I don't think getting the soul is the best comparison, because I don't think Buffy would have wanted to stop Spike if she knew what he was up to. Better examples are helping Dawn resurrect Joyce, offering Buffy money from his demon egg scheme and dumping Katrina's body in the river.

I like to imagine that a new timeline was created in IWRY, just like it did with the Wishverse, so that a Buffy and a still human Angel remained behind when time was turned back.

Elaboration: In Doppelgangland, Anya and Willow are able to pull a second Willow from a timeline that shouldn't exists anymore. If that timeline can exists, then maybe there still exists a timeline where Angel remained human after going to the Oracles and time never turned back. I can't explain it better. I am not good with time paradoxes.
The difference is that no one is saying that those are noble acts (although in Dawn's case it's made out of misguided sympathy for her) and they're made souless. Idk about Angel he makes the decision selflessly but he does it without Buffy's consent and she loses even the memory of it.
 

Taake

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Black Thorn
Do you think things would have played out differently for Buffy if she remembered what happened in I Will Remember You? How?

I think, if she had remembered the day that never was, or whatever you want to call it, I think Buffy would've been pretty upset with Angel for his choice, I think she would've gone home and probably would've struggled to get into a new relationship because she would've been hung up on a future that would never be. Clearly, it was only like six months ago that she was doodling Buffy & Angel together in her notepads, she had fantasized about stuff like this so having a real memory of it would've been painful.

I'm sure she would've understood Angel's choice rationally, and eventually she would probably have forgiven him, but I think she would've been mad at him and also, possibly, struggled with feeling a bit rejected (because he chose to remain a vampire over being with her. Feelings are feelings, we all get a bit sensitive sometimes).

Mostly I think it would've have made her cautious to open her heart again, to Riley, so their relationship would've stalled. Though, Riley is a patient guy so I'm sure he would've hung around and slowly grown closer to her, gained her trust and love, and - maybe - once they got together he would've had more of an understanding of where Buffy was coming from, emotionally (even if she wouldn't tell him the dating-a-vampire-thing any earlier)

Overall though, since nothing had really changed in their situations, and because she would understand the whole "to save your life" thing, I think she mostly would've carried on as we saw her do on the show already. Maybe she would've been more likely to sabotage her relationships or get into unsuitable relationships because she had the image of a vague ideal in her head. Basically, Buffy would've moved on, things would've played out mostly the same only on a bit of a different time schedule, but the main difference would be that Buffy was hurting over a bitter sweet memory.
 
r2dh2
r2dh2
Your response made me teary… too much heartache with this show even in a hypothetical scenario.

brinkster130

Riley's BFF
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Sineya
Nope. In fact I think Buffy would have made the exact same decision if she were the one who had the choice.

Sure, she would have been sad about not being able to have that perfect day or perfect life; but at the end of the day Buffy and Angel wouldn't be themselves if they were to walk away from the mission/their powers.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
Basically like 'The Prom' then? Angel made a choice about Angel and Angel's body and Angel's future that mostly affected Angel. Buffy was heartbroken but eventually understood.

I don't think 'IWRY' is epic, heartbreaking stuff but nor is it some creepy denial of agency by a control-freak alpha; that just shipper crap. For some perhaps Angel would've been better served by telling Buffy about his sacrifice and then going on and on about it forever 'I gave up perfect happiness for you, so you wouldn't die, Buffy! That's how much I love you!' I'm sure some would've found that very romantic and effective and not at all manipulative.

Bottom line; Angel was given an option buy seemingly omnipotent/all-knowing being he had good reason to find trust-worthy and with Buffy's life hung in the balance. People can play second-chance hindsight all they want but with the info he had at the time its understandable that he made the decision he did.
 

DeepBlueJoy

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Reverse the situation, have Buffy be the one to make the decision that would take away his greatest hope for happiness by restoring her Slayer powers because she thought that Angel would not somehow die trying to protect her. No one would ever know what might have happened. Now, Angel somehow finds out about it. Does he forgive her, because her intentions were pure, even if the results were something that he would not have wanted?

Or would his reaction be something similar to how he acted when Wes took Connor?
I think he'd react a bit more like when Wes took Connor. He does NOT like having people do stuff without his knowledge or input. While I don't like that he took back the day, it is not the taking the day back that is the biggest issue, but the deception. I don't like that he took the day back without saying anything beforehand, but he definitely should not have hidden it from her regardless. We don't get to rewrite someone's reality for their protection (or ours) EVER. That is called LYING.


TL;DR: I don't go for shielding children from truths. Shielding adults from truth is simply LYING.

If we have an adult relationship, we don't decide for the other person without their knowledge. The whole event ALWAYS reads to me as though Angel could not handle the idea of being a 'weak human' who could not 'protect his maiden'... and that is messed up. She's the SLAYER. This is the 20th (at the time) century. If she's in danger, it's up to you to HONESTLY tell her and face it WITH her and try to find a solution as two adults... assuming you want to be with her.

BTW, From what comes after, I don't actually see how his remaining a vampire ever actually saved Buffy after that day anyway.

IMO, what really happened was that the writers wrote themselves into a corner...

Suddenly, ANGEL, their PROTAGONIST was human, but here he was in his own show about a VAMPIRE and they had to re-vamp him somehow. They were too sexist and too shortsighted to think of another solution besides LYING to his EQUAL, someone who is also the slayer!

I have never had
any respect for parents who tell their child 'the dog ran away' instead of admitting the dog died. It's dishonest, confusing and cruel and the child never grows up if that kind of attitude prevails in the family. Yes, I do mean a child of any age. Death is a reality. We all must face it. Explanations should be truthful and age appropriate.

I have even less respect for a MAN telling his WOMAN a lie (not even one of omission) particularly not about something so important. After all, she's supposed to be (a) the person he loves more than anyone and (b) his equal and has his full adult respect.



It would have been far better (writing wise) if they somehow found out that the Morha (spelling?) blood wore off after 24 hours, so it would have been a poignant moment of sweetness that they both remembered, then tragically lost. That way she got her perfect day, he got his... and then sadly, it was over... His humanity could have run out when they were out in the afternoon sun, and suddenly he finds himself beginning to smoke... so no danger of 'perfect happiness' taking his soul because he re-vamped when they were making love.

* Buffy WAS upset he'd taken back the day. I don't think that would have changed that had she not forgotten.

* Neither Buffy nor Angel were good with others deciding ANYTHING for their own good and rightly so.


BTW: the best way to make sure someone doesn't trust... either you or themselves (or eventually ANYONE) is to lie to them 'for their own good'. If people have no idea what they can trust as real, they learn to trust nothing. It was wrong when Willow did it too.
 

katmobile

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Sorry, you're right, of course everyone is allowed their own interpretation.

I just often feel (especially with this episode) that many fans often try to "dirty" the Bangel relationship in ways which just aren't (IMO) true. Like, there are def problematic aspects to the Bangel relationship which can't be denied, but I don't feel that this episode is one of them and because I always read Angel's actions in this episode to be noble (if a little misguided) it does, at times, feel to me that fans are twisting his actions to paint him as the bad guy, when all he did was make a choice about his own body and his own life.

But I was wrong to express my thoughts in such an exasperated/irritable way.
I feel both sides have a point what Angel does is noble but it is unilateral and it isn't the last time he'll alter people's memory for someone else's good.

It's the dicotomy of Angel that he does try to do the right thing even at his own expense but it's always HIS definition of what that is. He takes over and it is part of the reason I feel Bangel is doomed Buffy doesn't see it whereas Cordy does and won't stand for it.
 

DeadlyDuo

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The whole event ALWAYS reads to me as though Angel could not handle the idea of being a 'weak human' who could not 'protect his maiden'... and that is messed up. She's the SLAYER. This is the 20th (at the time) century. If she's in danger, it's up to you to HONESTLY tell her and face it WITH her and try to find a solution as two adults... assuming you want to be with her.

BTW, From what comes after, I don't actually see how his remaining a vampire ever actually saved Buffy after that day anyway.
I disagree. Firstly, whilst Angel being a vampire wouldn't protect Buffy from death (she'd eventually die during old age or via some other slaying job like she did in The Gift), it would save her from dying trying to protect HIM.

This is a bit like the trolley problem for Angel. No matter which option he chooses, it's not going to end well. The action he took was the least worst option. The fact remains though that, had Angel chosen to remain human then Buffy dies as a result because he was unable to protect himself, then he would have to live with the knowledge that he COULD'VE saved Buffy from her fate, he had the OPTION to do so, yet he CHOSE not to. It isn't about gender, it's about a loved one.
 

white avenger

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He forgave her for Hell so I don’t see how he wouldn’t forgive her for that.
Actually, there wasn't anything to forgive in that case, as Angel finally explained to Spike several years later on his own show. He MADE Buffy stab him and send him to hell by "signaling her with his eyes."
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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She would pretend like it never happened. Look, at this point, Buffy's psyche has become very good at suppressing and sublimating trauma.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
It worked so well for her mother

katmobile

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Actually, there wasn't anything to forgive in that case, as Angel finally explained to Spike several years later on his own show. He MADE Buffy stab him and send him to hell by "signaling her with his eyes."
I think that's him grasping at straws there and not doing it well.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Most likely. He was just jealous cause Buffy chose Spikie to be her Champion in the final battle.

vampmogs

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If Buffy remembered IWRY her reaction would've been exactly as it were in the episode; anger, then acceptance and heartache.

In regards to why Angel made his decision, I feel we already know the answer because we saw Angel tell Buffy about his decision and we saw how Buffy reacted. Buffy sombrely agreed with Angel ("I understand"). With all due respect, anything else seems like fans wishing to project their own anger on to Buffy. They want her to be mad but once Angel explained his reasoning ("How can we be together if the cost if your life, or the lives of others?") Buffy understood his decision.

As for the reversal of time, Buffy absolutely wants to hold onto that memory ("I'll never forget... I'll never forget") but she doesn't seem angry at Angel for his decision to reverse time (or agreeing to The Oracles decision, anyway). Granted, it all happens so suddenly so that Buffy may very well be too emotionally shattered to process anything but grief and anger may have come later if she'd had more time. But, honestly, Buffy herself asks how she'd be expected to "go on with [her] life knowing what [they] had. What [they] could've had" so I think Buffy would find some mercy in not having to carry that loss around with her.

I do understand some of the criticisms towards Angel. I can see people's point that he made a decision about his future with Buffy that didn't include her but would most certainly affect her. And coming off the back of his earlier actions (where he snuck off to face Morah alone) I can understand why people see a pattern there. However, I would also argue that a more generous reading is that Angel didn't go to The Oracles with the specific intention of reversing time or even necessarily re-vamping himself again. He went to them to understand more of what the Morah meant about "the end of days" and then when informed of Buffy's impending death, he made a spontaneous decision when presented with an opportunity to prevent that. Given the temperamental and fickle nature of The Oracles I don't blame Angel for believing this isn't a deal he could simply ask for more time on. Likewise, whilst a part of his motivation for facing Morah alone was about proving to himself that he could still be a useful warrior without his powers, he also didn't want to wake Buffy "for anything in the world" after mere hours earlier she'd fallen asleep in his arms gushing over how she'd finally felt like "she always wanted to. A normal girl, falling asleep in the arms of her normal boyfriend." The more cynical interpretation of Angel's actions tend to overlook that despite it being fairly obvious in the script (his smile as he watches her sleeping peacefully).

Furthermore, it may be a quibble about semantics, but Angel didn't "wipe Buffy's memory" as he's so often accused of. He reversed time. That day literally never happened. I'd sooner compare his actions to Giles in The Wish when he made the decision to smash the amulet and change reality then I would Angel's mind-wipe in Home.

This is one of my favourite AtS episodes but I find it frustrating to discuss. I feel it falls victim to fandom politics more so than any other.
 
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