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What if Kate had taken the Justine role?

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Mr Trick, Mar 3, 2017.

  1. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Been catching up on Dusted today. On the review for Dad they mention that the original plan was for Kate to take the part that Justine plays as the bounty hunter and sidekick to Holtz. I think this would have worked out very much better. When Kate is a darker character I like her more, and because she has a past with Angel too that would have added another interesting aspect to the storyline.

    Would you've have been up for seeing Kate take fill this role? And how do you think it would have played out?
     
  2. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    Kate never could have done it. She would never have become a bounty hunter and frankly, she would have been a crashing bore. She would bring a police procedural attitude to the part which would have stifled all development and bogged the story down. And that great scene where Wesley beds Lilah while Justine is locked in the closet? Never could have happened with Kate. The writers made the right decision to bring in a new character and not recycled one that had not succeeded before.
     
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  3. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    It wouldn't have worked. Kate may have had a vendetta against Angel for Awhile, but she wasn't a bad person. In fact, she had a strong Moral center and desire to help the innocent. She was brave and strong, and when Angel saved her life in Epiphany they ended on good terms. She seemed to have found some peace. I cannot see Kate, no matter how angry, risking a babies life just for revenge.

    To me it would have done her character a disservice to bring her back just to play such an awful human being.
     
  4. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    yea that's what I thought. I don't think she'd come back a year later and have a grudge with Angel. She was trying to move on.

    actually that might have been better. Have Kate turn on Holtz instead of Justine slitting Wes' throat. They could have brought Kate back but I just don't think she would care about getting revenge on Angel. If anything she would have talked to Holtz about not seeking vengeance and trying to move on from the past. Even though Angel had nothing to do with her father's death Kate still partially blamed him. But she got over that. I never liked Justine but I don't want Kate in that role. I would have liked to see Kate returned again at least one more time.
     
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  5. GraceK

    GraceK Grr Arrg

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    Agreed. I would have liked a return from Kate, but as a positive for her character, not a negative. And honestly, I hate Justine and didn't think one part of her was at all relatable or likeable. She was a nightmare and I wanted her to die horribly LOL. So I Would not have wanted Kate in that role.
     
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  6. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    Yep yep. Justine was stupid. And she had a weird relationship with Holtz, like it was a father/daughter thing but then she also was like in love with him? It was creepy. And I hate how she helped Holtz set up Angel. She had no redeeming qualities. I actually liked Kate a little bit.
     
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  7. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    I thought Justine's relationship with Holtz was similar to faith's relationship with the Mayor but originating in torture ( a knife through the hand) rather than approval. Justine was motivated by he sister having been killed by a vampire. But in Justine's case her attachment to Holtz was more cult-like.
     
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  8. Geobubbles

    Geobubbles Can I play with the puppy?

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    Black Thorn
    And the mayor actually loved and cared for Faith whereas Holtz just used Justine's affection for him to gain his revenge.
     
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  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Kate came back after the "After The Fall" arc in the comic, with longer hair and a Black Widow outfit as a demon hunter and became part of Angel's new team. Too bad they couldn't have done anything like that with her during the later Seasons of the televised series, though I doubt that the actress portraying her could have pulled it off. As for her becoming Holtz's second in command, I can't see her siding with anyone as low and despicable as him, regardless of her feelings for Angel.
     
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  10. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    But that scene changed everything in a way. That was a way for them to bring closure to the Kate-Angel saga (I'm guessing because of the actress moving to Law & Order). But what if that scene never happened? My point is we don't know how far back the writers considered Kate for the Justine role in S3. Its possible that they planned it a long time ago, but then had to change it because of the actress leaving the show, which is why they came up with the overdose storyline in Epiphany. Whatever the case if you remove that final scene with Angel then her working with Holtz may not be so far fetched.

    Disagree. Some of my favourite moments involving Kate came when she was playing more of a villain type role, or a darker version of the character. The rest of the time it just felt like she was Buffy 2.0 and quite annoying with it too. Like many others I never warmed to Justine. Guess I'm alone but I would have liked to have seen Kate go the darker route.
     
  11. JimmyHall

    JimmyHall Townie

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    Dusted?
     
  12. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Its a Buffy/Review podcast. It can be found on I-tunes and Youtube etc...
     
  13. JimmyHall

    JimmyHall Townie

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    I might have to check that out. Thanks.
     
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  14. Bluebird

    Bluebird two by two, hands of blue

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    Black Thorn
    I don't think it would work. I liked Kate and her story, and I think to get her to the point of no return they would have had to do something very different than what we saw on screen. Although the original idea for Kate was a lot darker, with an undercover vice/junkie cop idea. As far as I recall. If they'd went that far with her from the start it would work, but that wasn't gonna happen on the WB in the 90s.

    I never understood how people see her as a Buffy ripoff, other than hair colour and being onscreen with David Boreanaz. She was about as far away from Buffy as a person could be. Women don't have to be defined by the men in their life. I think she could be a character in her own right.
     
  15. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I never really saw her that way. In the beginning, when Angel was supposed to run an actual Private Detective Agency, as opposed to the freelance body guard/avenger type of character that he became later, Kate filled the role common to all fictional P I's, the inside source in the Police Department. Mike Hammer had Pat Chambers, Shell Scott had Phil Sampson, and so forth. I think that that was originally supposed to be Kate's primary role on the show.
     
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  16. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Fair enough. I do see a lot of links. She's quite feisty too, and I think the fact that she works for the law is another connection. There's that episode (forget which one) which opens with her chasing the crooks down the street and she does the whole karate thing on them:D I think that is the show very much referencing Buffy. Another problem is that they suggest an attraction between her and Angel almost from the start. Think it would have been wise to leave that side alone.

    That is her role, but the character doesn't fulfill that role very well IMO. Those sorts of characters are supposed to be more likeable and not consistently bitch and moan for very little reason. Chances are it was more the writing than the actress (she's good on Law and Order and not bad on Stalker), but the character did little for me.
     
  17. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    Yes, but bear in mind, this is the version of that type of character as created by a man who imagined a cheer leader valley girl as the most kick ass demon fighter in the world, and a vampire who went halfway around the world to "get that b**ch what she deserves," and it turned out that he was getting a soul all along. Joss Whedon has a warped personality, and his creations never fit into the traditional roles.
     
  18. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    True, but we don't know how much influence Joss had on the Kate character. I got the impression than it was more Greenwalt as the show runner on Angel at least in the early seasons. The character just never really engaged me bottom line.
     
  19. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

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    Sineya
    That is a good point. If the actress didn't leave Angel and they had Kate go down a darker past. Then yes I would have been fine with her joining Holtz instead of Justine. I think the the motivation for Kate would have worked better in season 1 when she blamed Angel for her father's death. I think Kate for a better developed character, and probably more so had she stayed on the show, so I think she would have been better than Justine.
    Yes, well they do meet at the bar in a dating club. lol. I do think that Kate maybe had a thing for Angel before she found out that he was a vampire. And I think that's partly why she was so pissed when she found out. Like she was partly betrayed or something by him. Her dad eve nthought Angel was her boyfriend. So I think it had crossed her mind, and yea he's a good looking guy. lol. I don't think Angel thought of her in a romantic way. He kinda saw her as damsel cop lady. lol.

    I do like the actress, I've seen her in some stuff, and maybe she's just grown and gotten better. But I do think that the writers just really didn't know what to do with Kate. I think maybe I like Kate more than I should because I like the actress. I think the writers realized that Kate being "Buffy 2.0" wasn't working, and they could only do so much with the cop side of things, since Angel Investigations was the primary detective focus of the show. So they sort of had her have these bad storylines with her dad. And then sort of came around in season 2, but then she left.
     
  20. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

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    Well that's an interesting point. I wasn't sure if Kate actually did like Angel when they met at the bar or if she was pretending as part of her cover. Not sure if she was upset so much because of liking him, just than she naturally saw Vampires as evil and against the law. Still you maybe onto something. I just think it would have been better if they left the romantic thing alone altogether.