• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:

    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!

    2. Fourteen thousand people can't be wrong.

    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.

    4. See 1 through 3.

    Come on, register already!

What is Giles’ problem

darkspook

Potential
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
269
Age
36
Except Buffy and Spike are standing right outside and probably keeping an ear out for trouble plus there's a group of them - it's not the same thing as a Crucumentum at all, that's false equivalence. You want to argue facts and logic - don't use logical fallacies.
Disagree. Still I feel there similarities to both Buffy’s approach and Travers’s treatment of her. He clearly sees the slayer as a tool, a weapon, he is demeaning, controlling and talks down to her at each encounter. Buffy is offers little encouragement, is all business with them and refuses to hear their views. I am a firm believer that S2 Buffy would had rebelled against S7 Buffy.

But thank you about the advice about using logical fallacies I shall try and remember it. If I may offer you some try not to be so dismissive of alternative ideas and perhaps lose the slightly insulting tone to your writing.
 

darkspook

Potential
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
269
Age
36
The writers got a bad case of twistitis and misdirectionite at some point, but unfortunately that was the early 00s for you (although did the trend ever die out actually ? I can't tell).
I just feel that in a busy last season should one be trying to do misdirection or focusing on the characters and wrapping up the season.
 

darkspook

Potential
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
269
Age
36
It's not great certainly. I think it was more like ok so that wasn't worth the payoff and that wasn't as clever as you think but I don't take things like that - I was offended by the end of Normal Again. You don't get to suggest I've been watching someone's delusion - eff you you smug bastards!
Got me there! That’s very true. I was sitting there like so you telling me the characters and their issues is all in someone’s fantasy?! WTF I get it’s a popular fake out in fantasy but for example Farscape did it better as the main character knew the world he woke up in was fake and therefore had fun mocking it. Granted different shows but we all know the next episode after isn’t going to be the further adventures of ‘Buffy the mental patient’
 

darkspook

Potential
Joined
Dec 13, 2020
Messages
269
Age
36
ut there are also plenty of scenes prior to this one that indicate Xander's feelings and set up the lie, notably Passion, Becoming pt1. He literally says "I think you want to forget about Ms Calendar's murder just so you can get your boyfriend back", and "I say faster, pussycat, kill, kill".
Yes good point we got evidence of him saying thes things but I still feel its a big leap to say 'I'm going to keep quiet so Angel dies as he deserves it!' I mean there is evidence of Buffy's stalling and fighting Angelus half heartedly in Becoming part 1 and look what happened there everyone was nearly killed. You got evidence of Spike wanting to kill Buffy many times and Angelus even tells him to really kill Buffy 'you have to love her' so therefore with a jump here and there who is to say that Spike's actions in S6 are not a man corrupting a confused, vulnerable girl because he really wants to destroy her from the inside. (I wrote a fanfiction based on the very idea as a matter of fact.) Evidence of people say and what they are two different things. I myself argued evidence about Spike's AR attempt suggesting that he would not have stopped only to be shot down by the hidden meanings.

emoving his chip == not treating him like a dog when there is no reason to anymore. Why should she not treat him like a person at this point ?
Encouraging his dark side : she does the same with Willow. Don't see what the issue is.
Training the potentials with him : training with someone who possesses the physical attributes of their common enemy and does not tire or injure himself easily makes less sense than training with people who could get hurt and aren't really fighters to begin with ?
Removing his chip when he the First could still trigger him and therefore make him attack others. He was still dangerous at that point but hey lets forget that fact. Encouraging his dark side fair point you got me there but I really could have done without her dialogue aka telling him 'What I want is the Spike that's dangerous.' I mean Buff that's your the guy tried to rape you oh please. Poor word choice.
However in that same exchange Spike says: "I did this for you. The soul, the changes—it's what you wanted." and he just what came all the way to town to tell her that didn't expect anything in return for it? I know he was probably dragged to town by the first but he got the soul for her as a way becoming a better man for her. I doubt he just wanted a pat on the head for it.
 

Cheese Slices

A Bidet of Evil
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Messages
954
Location
France
I just feel that in a busy last season should one be trying to do misdirection or focusing on the characters and wrapping up the season.
I very much agree.
Yes good point we got evidence of him saying thes things but I still feel its a big leap to say 'I'm going to keep quiet so Angel dies as he deserves it!' I mean there is evidence of Buffy's stalling and fighting Angelus half heartedly in Becoming part 1 and look what happened there everyone was nearly killed. You got evidence of Spike wanting to kill Buffy many times and Angelus even tells him to really kill Buffy 'you have to love her' so therefore with a jump here and there who is to say that Spike's actions in S6 are not a man corrupting a confused, vulnerable girl because he really wants to destroy her from the inside. (I wrote a fanfiction based on the very idea as a matter of fact.) Evidence of people say and what they are two different things. I myself argued evidence about Spike's AR attempt suggesting that he would not have stopped only to be shot down by the hidden meanings.
  1. You can decide on the degree of venom present in Xander's motivation, but as it is there is just more evidence that point to it being basically wanting Angel dead rather than some strategic forethought. Even if Buffy (and that's a big if) was indeed stalling, Xander is A) not privy to it and B) not written or shown thinking it. And again, this is not me hating on Xander, I understand where he's coming from. But he's still very much not doing this out of practicality, as there is no indication it is the case, and evidence to the contrary.
  2. The comparison with Spike does not hold because in order to work you have to remove at least a season worth of character developments with clear and direct indications that Spike no longer wants Buffy dead and very much wants her alive and mourns her when she does die. Not to mention multiple examples of him trying to prevent her getting hurt and feeling sad when she does get hurt (doesn't mean he doesn't hurt her). Not to mention clear characterization of Spike not being the "psychological torture" type. So that's plenty of evidence to the contrary against zero evidence of your statement. With Xander, the clues I gave you happen in the span of four episodes preceding the lie, including the first part of the very episode in which he lies. You're really comparing apples to oranges here.
Removing his chip when he the First could still trigger him and therefore make him attack others. He was still dangerous at that point but hey lets forget that fact.
He had the chip when he was killing all these people in Sleeper. Didn't stop him at all.
Encouraging his dark side fair point you got me there but I really could have done without her dialogue aka telling him 'What I want is the Spike that's dangerous.' I mean Buff that's your the guy tried to rape you oh please. Poor word choice.
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue anymore, to be honest. I thought were talking about whether she makes him her responsibility.
However in that same exchange Spike says: "I did this for you. The soul, the changes—it's what you wanted." and he just what came all the way to town to tell her that didn't expect anything in return for it? I know he was probably dragged to town by the first but he got the soul for her as a way becoming a better man for her. I doubt he just wanted a pat on the head for it.
Well, yeah. That's kind of the "monkey paw" aspect to it. Without a soul he thought he could make it work, that getting a soul would solve most of his problems, the way it seemingly did with Angel (he arguably did worse and was forgiven pretty much immediately). Once he gets a soul he gets more perspective and gives up on the idea that Buffy would want anything to do with him. But I can understand his being all "wtf" when she asks him to go back to his "soulless groove" when the year before it was his very soullessness that made him inherently unworthy of her attention. It's kind of as if your SO told you you'd look better with your hair short, so you go and cut it and they suddenly tell you they preferred it longer (trying to introduce some levity here, with a crappy analogy).

@thetopher Agreed I guess, though it's also kind of his job/domain. But yeah, definitely points for effort.
 
Top Bottom