1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

What is so bad about Season 4?

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by Joshua, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. Joshua

    Joshua Huge Spuffy Fan!

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,295
    Likes Received:
    78
    Location:
    Sunnydale
    Reputation:
    1,258
    I was too little to watch Season 4 as it aired on TV back in 2002-2003, but what was so bad about this season that people disliked? Okay, the Cordelia and Connor having sex that's a little gross. It's practically a mother and son incest thing since Cordy was there since Connor was birthed by Darla.

    But other than that Season 4 is imo my favorite season besides Season 2 of the entire series and I always have the most fun watching it during my rewatch of Buffy and Angel. So what's wrong with Season 4? Personally for me, I prefer it over Season 5. Season 5 bores me. The only thing I love about Season 5 are the last few episodes and the series finale.

    But season 5 as a whole is a bore fest and Spike was annoying in Season 5.
     
  2. thetopher

    thetopher Member of the Church Of Faith

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    5,955
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Moot, England
    Reputation:
    14,548
    Sineya
    Basically you've nailed why a lot of people dislike it- Cordelia turning evil and Connor.
    But since I didn't care for Cordelia much after she came back from her holiday (with that horrendous blonde hair style and the glow-y half-demon rubbish and acting completely OOC) it doesn't really bother me that much.
    Connor...in hindsight I don't particularly mind Connor because of where he ends up as a character. I like him so much in S5 that the 'broken record' stuff of this season doesn't irritate me as much.

    But actually I often site S4 as my favourite. (although the order changes all the time- but S4 is always high, along with S2. I like S5 quite a bit though- its grown on me)
    S4 has this great, ambitious, epic, long running plot that starts with 'Apocalypse Nowish and ends with 'Inside Out'.

    I like Dark Wesley and the collapsing Wesley/Fred/Gunn triangle. I like Wes/Lilah, I like Gwen, I like the Beast, I really like the whole Angelus in a cage thing, 'Spin The Bottle' is at least as funny as 'Tabula Rasa'- maybe a bit more- and I love Faith's return, which is in every way written perfectly.

    Oh, and 'Orpheus' is probably one of favourite episodes of all-time. It makes me love Willow- the real Willow- all over again. :)

    I really don't like the Jasmine arc but I do like 'Home', the last episode- that alone made me want to tune in to see the start of S5.
     
    bespangeled: I completely agree here! "Dude, you rescued a puppy!" :D
  3. Lyri

    Lyri Buckle Up Tight

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2006
    Messages:
    12,230
    Likes Received:
    1,069
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Monaco
    Reputation:
    15,629
    Sineya
    Because Joss fridged Cordelia because he was pissed at Charisma for hiding her pregnancy. Even though a blind person could tell Charisma was pregnant from the first ep of S4.
     
    Mr. Pole: But he "didnt give her permission" to get pregnant. That is the line I love! Didn't give her permission. That's what really chaps my ass. I forget where I heard that, but it was that exact phrase. Didnt give her permission.
    DarlaChase and Blaze like this.
  4. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    935
    Likes Received:
    381
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Italy - Sardinia -
    Reputation:
    4,071
    For Real? If this is true it makes me lose tons of esteem and respect towards Joss.
     
    Mr. Pole: Its something I heard awhile back, either from a Paleyfest or some other interview. But yeah, that was the general idea.
  5. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2014
    Messages:
    3,693
    Likes Received:
    2,687
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    CA
    Reputation:
    4,898
    Sineya
    Recently watching S4 and yes, I can tell that they are trying to hide it.

    for me it's the Cordy/Connor/Jasmine thing that ruins it. And even though I think the Beast in theory is a great demon villain, he wasn't interesting or they just didn't write him well enough. I do love Wes this season. The return of Faith is the best, I like Gwen, I like first 3 episodes and 'Spin the Bottle' but every thing else outside of those things is just not very good.
     
  6. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    12,546
    Likes Received:
    6,864
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Stockholm, Swe
    Reputation:
    41,751
    Black Thorn
    What's bad about season 4 is that it isn't as good when you watch it week to week. It has this massive operatic arc that I feel works great when you're watching it on DVD and get the whole story without having to wait. I love season 4 (even though there are elements I hate violently or wish could have been done better) but I only love it when I watch it as a whole. Trying to keep engaged in the story when it's spread out is hard because the story is intricate and haphazard at once.

    Also I do think that the changes to Cordelia's character (and the acting) are definitely damaging. The writing for her is frankly speaking abyssmal. It's like the writers had no idea what they were doing all of a sudden. Possibly because Charisma's pregnancy was unexpected and not planned into the story but honestly that's no excuse.
     
    Fuffy Baith: I agree, it's no excuse for terrible story telling
    Fuffy Baith likes this.
  7. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    5,477
    Likes Received:
    4,037
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canada
    Reputation:
    15,314
    Black Thorn
    The highs of s4 were really high. Dark Wes, the return of Faith, Angel/Angelus and Willow.

    But the lows, well they were REALLY low. Hated how they massacred one of the most important character that had been with us since the very beginning. And Connor and Jasmine didn't help.

    In the end, what made s4 bad is Joss' own dam pride that got in the way. He acted like a bitter idiot and it showed on screen.
     
  8. Mr Trick

    Mr Trick Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2015
    Messages:
    9,716
    Likes Received:
    4,840
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, UK
    Reputation:
    8,158
    Yeah, I am a big fan of S4 but I did think than that three part arc at the end was pretty weak. The only worth while aspect of it I think was that it showed a different side to Fred.
     
    Fuffy Baith: Yes! I love Fred! and she breaks up with Gunn this season. Was not a fan of them as a couple.
    Fuffy Baith likes this.
  9. Aud

    Aud Scooby

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    110
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    135
    I look at S4 in a really piecemeal way. There are elements I actually liked a lot, and elements I absolutely abhorred. Every season has elements that simply don't work, or that fans don't really like, but you sort of get over these things because, as a fan, you realize no season can be perfect. And on the whole, when determining how much you liked a season, you probably weigh the good stuff against the bad. However, the bad parts in S4 were especially bad and overshadowed the good stuff, and therefore the S4 bad was simply more difficult to forgive.

    Like everybody has said, anything and everything relating to Cordelia in S4 was dreadful. Her character was already becoming tiresome in S3 when the writers decided she and Angel were in love. Once she was taken up by the PTB, her story should have concluded (instead of retroactively explaining that as having been part of Jasmine's ridiculous plan for world domination). Instead of dragging out the "oh no, what's happened to Cordy?" mystery, AI should've learned of her fate right away, and Angel should have been allowed to come to peace with it and moved on. That's it. That should've been the story. Instead we are treated to these abominable closeups of glowy Cordelia screaming from "up there" that she is bored and wants to come back to earth. Then we get her returning to earth but acting strangely. Then we get her acting even more strangely, dragging out her soapy "were we in love?" melodrama with Angel and then sleeping with Connor. I mean, truly, who thought any of this was a good idea? Yes, I believe it is true that JW seemed to be punishing CC for her pregnancy (which is incredibly douchey), but her phoned in performance is equally to blame. Not all of the actors on either ATS or BTVS may have agreed with the direction the writers took their characters in, but none so obviously expressed their disapproval by diminishing the quality of their acting. The overall awfulness of this storyline really cast a shadow over anything that was even halfway decent about S4.
     
    Carrie Hopewell likes this.
  10. bespangeled

    bespangeled Scooby

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    2,081
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Tucson
    Reputation:
    5,743
    Black Thorn
    I loathe season 4 - the contrivances piled on contrivances, the destruction of Cordelia, the whole Oedipus angle, the beast killed by his bone knife conveniently left out....I could go on forever.

    OTH - some of my favorite episodes are in season 4 - most of them right after Wesley breaks Faith out of jail by telling her why she is needed. I really like the relationship between those two, the ruthless way they work together toward a goal. Angelus is great - wonderful to see Willow.
     
    Fuffy Baith: Yea they don't explain what Angelus uses to kill the Beast, it just comes out of nowhere.
    Fuffy Baith likes this.
  11. Fuffy Baith

    Fuffy Baith 2017 (and 2016) Cutest BB member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2014
    Messages:
    3,693
    Likes Received:
    2,687
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    CA
    Reputation:
    4,898
    Sineya
    I agree, the bad is really bad. If I had to watch season 4 one a week, which I did watch it when it was airing, but I could not do it. It's only good if you watch it back to back. There are a few highs but they are far apart. And the end just has no redeeming qualities.
    I don't know, but they could have come up with a better way around CC's pregnancy that didn't involve sleeping with Connor. Cuz, ew. Creepy!
     
    Aud: Seriously! I think CC said in an interview that doing those love/kissing scenes was really icky and uncomfortable because she was pregnant. It makes me sad that the writers and JW reduced her to that...
  12. adzpower

    adzpower Townie

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    42
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, England
    Reputation:
    10
    They destroyed Cordelia's character. And Connor was unbearable. The best part of season 4 was Faith and Angelus.
     
    Anya2012 and Fuffy Baith like this.
  13. VisionBoy

    VisionBoy Scooby

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    1,046
    Gender:
    Male
    Reputation:
    1,453
    Sineya
    It's mostly the Cordy stuff that's been said already for me. Even though she was Jasmine, the damage had been done, my eyes had already burned.

    I don't dislike season 4 as a whole though, in fact I really enjoy the majority of it. I love The Beast and Angelus and Faith's return etc. I don't even mind Conner. Not crazy about the Jasmine arc, it's so convoluted and I'm not sure why they didn't just have The Beast as a separate bad guy, because his plans made little to no sense next to Jasmine's.

    Basically: when season 4 is good, it's really really good. When season 4 is bad, it's bad in a way that really sticks in the mind :/
     
    Fuffy Baith and Mr Trick like this.
  14. adzpower

    adzpower Townie

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    42
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London, England
    Reputation:
    10
    Its just so creepy. It feels incestuous.
     
    Sternbeeere: i think it is intended
    Sternbeeere and Smile Time like this.
  15. Riderofapocalypse

    Riderofapocalypse Potential

    Joined:
    May 20, 2015
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    178
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Reputation:
    235
    Hi There, I'm new and this post caught my eye. Sorry if this post is to old to reply to, Let me know and I'll make a note to not reply to a post this old. Anyways, on to my response:

    Personally, (my opinion), I really enjoyed S4 & the Beast arc until they introduced the Jasmine angle. I'm looking at Jasmine as this season's 'big bad', yet is she really an evil that needs to be destroyed? When I dumb it down, this is what I think to myself.
    on one hand we have:
    1) A deity/demon thing that claims our free will and about a dozen lives per day/week/whatever. In exchange we get, the end of war/hostility and famine. (we see people freely sharing what their food with each other in the show).
    On the other hand we have:
    2) Hundreds if not thousands of people die-ing every week or even day, to famine and war/violence worldwide in the absence of Jasmine

    Am I the only one who just said aloud, 'Wait, what?" Am I the only one see's this as a horrible execution of a current event comparison? (our free will for government protection ).

    Also, speaking of Season 4, I really didn't like the later half/ending to of Buffy S4. (The execution behind the ideas).

    Anyways, that's why I dislike Angel Season 4, the execution of Jasmine.
    Take care.

    P.S. I really appreciate seeing people stating their opinion on this site and not having others jump down their throats
     
  16. Cordy_Chase

    Cordy_Chase Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2013
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    454
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    California
    Reputation:
    510
    Sineya
    "Let me break it down for yah Fred"

    Probably the main thing is that it was an uncomfortable season behind the scenes, but first consider what we see on screen.

    This evil entity raped Cordelia in every sense of the word, her potential as a champion, some of her sense of self, her memories, emotions and of course physically violated her body in more than one way. On top of it all, it made her watch, her consciousness remained intact during the possession (Revealed in 'You're Welcome')!

    It used her body to conduct a sexual relationship with a minor that can be described as both statutory rape and essentially incest because Connor was in retrospect, her son. Even though it was for such a short time Cordy was the only mother figure he'd ever had and it was clear that Angel considered her his mother (Ex. Lorne's comment in 'Waiting in the Wings' about the reading he got while listening to Angel sing Connor to sleep).

    The thing used both her and this innocent, confused young man to birth itself and then tossed her aside to like a molting while it manipulated mankind into believing it was a savior when in fact it was orchestrating a planetwide holocaust and devouring them.

    Also for me the development in the whole Cordy possession phase was poor. I'm not sure I grasped the purpose of the amnesia in the beginning and how Lorne's antidote had activated the entity, though someone once theorized to me that it might have been a shield put in place by the Powers to keep Jasmine restrained. Even so, for how long? Skip said that because the entity had fused into every molecule of Cordy it could not be removed without killing her, but since he was a lying bastard could it have been possible? Was the entity possibly less of a threat to her body while deactivated or in status or whatever? Another thing I am not grasping tough is what about the amnesia even effectively kept Jasmine in this status or deactivation.
    Then there was absolutely no connection between it's attempt as Cordy to lure Angelus' alliance and the saintly masquerade of the Jasmine persona who even point blank told Angel that he could be rid of Angelus in "her world". Unless I missed something, if that's the case, please enlighten me. That whole thing with Angelus and the Beast was my second least favorite portion of the season, with the Connor sex/"They don't understand, we're special" shit being my absolute least.

    Cordelia was one of the most incredibly evolved characters in both series, she went from spoiled, shallow, selfish diva to a strong, independent woman who could stand on her own two feet and that whole season 4 thing shit all over that as far as I'm concerned. I'm convinced that part of the reason for that was because Charisma had been noticeably pregnant during the filming of season 4 which Whedon was totally immature about having gotten royally pissed off with her for it. It was because of her pregnancy that Jasmine was written in the first place (Cordy's Jasmine baby bump was real).
    It was very tough for Charisma to stand there and take his criticism and it had been very uncomfortable for her to perform the sexual scenes with the young actor, Vincent something, who played Connor. If you pay close attention there are also some faint traces of discomfort in her face when they get to the bed portion of the fantasy sex scene in 'Awakening', though she's said that David Boreanaz was far more in her comfort zone to perform sexually with than Vincent (I actually still find that scene hot and consider it one of my favorites).

    That's what bothers me most, that the whole thing was basically Whedon throwing a hissy fit. I do, however, consider 'You're Welcome' to have properly redeemed Cordelia and appreciate that very much. It still pisses me off that she had to die and that she and Angel never got to have a real chance together, but there are stories floating around here that the original intent for Cordelia's character was pretty much the same just without Jasmine. The entity would have remained unidentified and spent it's entire role acting through Cordy, to defeat it Angel would have been forced to kill the woman he was just realizing he was falling hard for. All pure speculation of course as I've never found an official source of any such information, but if this were the case at least this way her death while more tragic would have been more dignified and no doubt far better developed.

    Let me just say that I agree 110% with this, I couldn't stand that hair! Then add the gown she rose to the higher plain in...I'm sorry, Charisma is a beautiful woman overall but that look was just revolting.

    As for the "glow-y half-demon rubbish" particularly the whatever cleansing thing she did to Connor, is it just me who is questioning the 'demon' part in half-demon? The two abilities she displayed seem far more angelic to me than demonic which would actually make sense in connection to the whole higher plain sham.
     
    GraceK and Anya2012 like this.
  17. Anya2012

    Anya2012 Floppy, hoppy, bunnies!

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    1,376
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Australia!
    Reputation:
    958
    I just rewatched this season and it used to be on my least favourite season. And still is.

    But Faith and Angelus made it for me. And my favourite two episodes are Spin The Bottle and Orpheus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
    Fuffy Baith likes this.
  18. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    14,297
    Likes Received:
    2,911
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    rome, georgia
    Reputation:
    25,537
    Mr. Pole: But he "didn't give her permission" to get pregnant. That is the line I love! Didn't give her permission. That's what really chaps my ass. I forget where I heard that, but it was that exact phrase. Didn't give her permission.

    While I totally agree with you, I think that things like that are included in actors' contracts, especially on TV shows. In this age of birth control and planned parentage, the studios take the stand that pregnancies should be planned around their shooting schedules, or, at least, with enough prior notice that they can work around it. Obviously, Charisma didn't do the former, whether by accident or intent, and Joss either didn't have, or refused to use, the latter, resulting in a really screwed up Season 4.My sympathies are totally with Charisma, especially since this was supposedly unplanned, and coming after several miscarriages. It was really her miracle child, and I believe that a man of Joss' talents could have done a better job of working around it that would have resulted in a far better Season. I think that the general consensus is that Mr Whedon was a total ass in his handling of the situation.
     
  19. vellavu

    vellavu Scooby

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Messages:
    2,902
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    Reputation:
    4,423
    Black Thorn
    Besides Cordy/Connor and evil Cordy thing. My problem is that it never addressed how much Jasmine affected history, and in what level all AtS casts are puppets.

    Was Liam and Darla's meet because of Jasmine?
    Was the gypsy family Jasmine's minions?
    Was Whistler's decision of finding Angel affected by Jasmine?
    Did Jasmine designed and arranged Bangel?
    Was Angel revived by Jasmine?
    Was the shanshu written by Jasmine to trick Angel staying in LA?

    And most importantly:
    Can every plot-hole and OOC moments explained away by Jasmine?
     
    kamui3 and Fuffy Baith like this.
  20. Smile Time

    Smile Time The Scattered One

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,589
    Likes Received:
    1,600
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    1,818
    Sineya
    *Jasmine.
    *Connor.
    *Cordy.
    *Cordy/Connor (mainly because Cordy has had sex with Connor's dad...).
    *and more...

    However, the season did have a few things that I liked:
    *Angelus.
    *Faith.
    *Gwen.
    *...and that's it :(

    Overall, it's probably the worst season of the Buffyverse.
     
    GwenRaiden: Aw, I like you too.