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What was Buffy going to say to Riley in Into the Woods...

Discussion in 'Season 5' started by dcai0830, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    What do you all think Buffy had the intention of telling Riley if she had caught him before he left on the helicopter to South America? In your mind - what was she going to say?

    Was she going to tell him she loved him?

    Did she going to give into his ultimatum (which I can only assume was that she would forgive him for the vampire suckage and for Buffy to be more open with him?)

    Do you think it was a mistake to have Buffy go after Riley?
     
  2. Grace

    Grace Support-O-Gal

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    Black Thorn
    I haven't really thought about it too much, but my gut reaction when I read your question was that it would have been like the ending of The Graduate. Buffy would have been so happy to catch him and there would have been a big music-swelling kiss, and Buffy would be smiling hugely. And then the helicopter would take off, leaving Riley behind, and her smile would slowly fade as she realized that all their problems were still big problems and she had been swept up by what Xander had said and now she was stuck with Riley. :)

    I definitely would have preferred for her not to run after him. Both of them had valid points about their relationship (Buffy didn't love Riley to the degree he desired; vampire suckage and ultimatums are wrong), but the right answer was for them to break up. Buffy can't manufacture feelings that just aren't there, no matter how compelling she found Xander's arguments, and Riley needs to have his own mission and can't look to Buffy to provide his meaning in life.
     
  3. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    My guess would be something like:

    "I can't love you, and it's killing me. Goodbye, Riley."

    or words to that effect.

    But, seriously, I think that by that time she had figured out that she and Riley just didn't have what it took to be anything permanent. As was mentioned, demon fighting was, at best, Riley's occupation, and he just couldn't really accept that it was Buffy's life.
     
  4. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    I definitely hate that Buffy ran after Riley at the end. It felt in strong contradiction the the way the entire episode was going. I want to know what Marti was thinking. What had Buffy realized after Xander's speech? I felt that the Xander speech only re-emphasized the reasons the two weren't right for each other. She really did think of Riley as State Farm. Why is she chasing Jake from State Farm?!

    The only justification I can come up with is Buffy was scared she hadn't given enough and she hadn't allowed herself the opportunity to fall in love with Riley. But all of this still means that Buffy was going to forgive Riley for the vampire cheating and the blaming her for it which is just so unsettling. I feel like Xander ultimately convinced her that the vampire suckage was her fault because she treated Riley a certain way.
     
    BuffyBot22: Just one of the many reasons I can't stand Xander...
  5. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    I think Buffy would have called him down and then given him a proper goodbye and wished him luck. Then they would have hugged. I don't believe she loved him, and I know one speech couldn't have just changed her mind right away. She would have thought about it but accepted that things weren't right and let him go, but made sure it was on good terms.
     
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  6. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    @Fool for Buffy and @white avenger those are interesting takes but wouldn't you agree the scene is written as a desperate attempt to catch up to him to tell him to stay? In other words did you think we were supposed to believe that she was just running to catch up and tell home goodbye? Or is that just hopeful thinking?

    If she was going to just tell him goodbye properly it would've been a great scene to watch. Riley thinking she was giving in the the ultimatum getting off the helicopter only for her to look in his eyes and say something lame like you will always be in my heart, goodbye.
     
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  7. Fool for Buffy

    Fool for Buffy BFF of Sour Patch Kid

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    Sineya
    I am not actually saying we are supposed to believe that, rather I think that would be the only way an actual reuinion scene could have gone. I think that Buffy had no idea what she was going to say. So my answer isn't exactly what the thread was asking. Just that I believe an alternate ending with him coming down would have to lead to a simple and heartfelt goodbye. And I agree it would have been a great scene to watch.
     
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  8. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    I don't think that Buffy was going to say goodbye, but I do believe that, if he had stayed, it would be with the understanding that they both accept the fact that what they had was just about all that Buffy had to give, and that Riley would just have to accept that. Remember, for Buffy, there wasn't, and, as far as she knew at the time, any chance of a "long haul." At best, she had five or six years. No Slayer had ever lived past 25. Riley obviously wanted more, and Buffy just plain couldn't give it to him.

    It might have been different if the same scene were played out after Season 7, when the chances of her surviving changed, with the activation of a virtual army of Slayers to help with the fight. Now, Buffy can, and likely will, have a "long haul" to share with someone. Of course, as of Season 11, the question isn't so much about dying young as it is aging while her lover stays young.
     
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  9. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    Xander's words have such a great effect on Buffy because she does realise she loves Riley and wants him in her life, and that means she can find it within herself to forgive him. She's definitely running after him to stop him going and ask him to stay and work through their issues together.

    I think she'd say:

    'Riley, please don't go. I know we've got things we need to talk about. It hasn't been perfect between us . . . with my mom . . . but we can get through this, if we're together. I need you so much Riley . . . whatever it takes'

    We the viewer know that Riley isn't right for Buffy. I hated her chasing after him, and was glad when he flew away. But I do believe that Buffy loved him, because she's never been false in her affections and she wouldn't have stayed with him so long if she hadn't loved him.
     
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  10. flow

    flow Will you just hold me ?

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    Yes, I hated that scene too. I hate it a lot.
    I don`t believe Buffy really loved Riley. She wanted to love him and she talked herself into it but she wasn`t really there. As you have pointed out in another thread yourself, she has never once told him "I love you" on screen. The only remote mentioning of love is to Angel when she tells him she has a new boyfriend and loves him. But that is more inspired by her trying to hurt Angel (back) and maybe by her attempt to talk herself into it than by her actual feeling it.

    Buffy was absolutely right in her former concersation with Riley. She told him, that she would not take the blame for his behaviour. She did not break up with him, she did not send him away, she admitted, they had issues but she was willing to work on them. But she was not willing to take the blame. She was not falling for his manipulative ways. She was not willing to accept a few hours long ultimatum at the end of a one and a half year long relationship. She had every right in the world to do so.

    What else could she have been saying, if she had caught the helicopter ?

    "Good bye Riley, have fun with the military "? If that would have been, what she was going to say, they shouldn`t let us see her running as if it was for her life.

    "We have problems Riley, but I am willing to work them out with you"? She said that before. He refused.

    The only reasons she was running after him could have been for her to say "You are right Riley, it was all my fault and I am begging you to stay. I`ll try to make you feel better from now on".

    And that would have been so absolutely out of character for her, that I probably would have stopped watching the show. I don`t understand, why she chased after him. I don`t understand, what the writers wanted us to think, what she was going to say and what that would say about her.

    flow
     
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  11. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    I think she would have told him what he wanted to hear so he'd stay and this thought really makes me mad.

    It's kind of crazy that it took a conversation with Xander where he basically has to sell her Riley and her relationship with him for her to think that maybe she does want (or should want) to continue that relationship. I kind of hate that scene for putting ideas in her head when her heart's not in it. And it put the sole blame on Buffy which is bullshit, but I think that's why she decided to run after him and that she would have told him whatever he wanted to hear.
     
    Living Dead Boy: Exactly.
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  12. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Buffy would've said the magic words Riley wanted to hear "I need you" so he would hop off the helicopter. I agree that Buffy loved Riley but it wasn't enough for him, he wanted her to NEED him and that is just something Buffy couldn't give him because she's not some 1950s housewife. Had Briley continued, Buffy would've become a shell of her former self.

    If Bangel is Romeo and Juliet, then Briley is The Taming of the Shrew.
     
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  13. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

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    Buffy was in a bad place emotionally, with everything that was happening with Glory/Dawn and Joyce's illness. It's no wonder she wanted to cling onto what she knew and was comfortable, there was enough change going on around her.

    I'm glad Riley flew away, but I totally see how Buffy felt in that moment and I agree that if Riley had stayed their relationship would have limped along for another few months. Spike was around, offering Buffy a subconcious alternative (reminder of vampire/Angel passionate love that she doesn't have with Riley) plus her need to go hunting after sex, would have forced them to split eventually.
     
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  14. brinkster130

    brinkster130 Riley's BFF Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I don't think she would have asked him to stay. I think her running showed she did love and care about him, but I think by this point she knew that it wasn't enough. Coming face to face with Jim would have only confirmed to both of them that it wasn't going to work.

    I think she was running to say something along the lines of "sorry this didn't work, but I do love you and want the best for you. The next job is lucky to have you" . She was just going to be open for once and be honest with him rather than keep him at arms distance.
     
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  15. Mylie

    Mylie Scooby

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    That is a big IF as far as I'm concerned... and I don't see Briley as the Taming of the Shrew at all personally.
     
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  16. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    What Riley probably wanted to hear and what he had yet to hear was "I love you". I wonder if she would have said that if only to make him stay.
     
  17. Anyanka Bunny Killer

    Anyanka Bunny Killer Jotunheim

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    Black Thorn
    She was going to say, "You're extremely insecure and I can't deal with it anymore. And yes, I love Angel. Goodbye, loser."
     
    flow: It would have been great, if we had heard her saying that. It sucks, that we did not.
  18. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    LOL - YES!!!
     
  19. DeadlyDuo

    DeadlyDuo Scooby

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    Whedon compared Bangel to Romeo and Juliet and there is a comparison to made in that a member from two warring factions (in this case slayers and vampires) fall in love with each other. That's as far a the comparison goes IMO.

    As for Briley, the comparison to Taming of the Shrew is that Riley is trying to take a strong independent woman and turn her into a meek submissive woman aka his obsession with telling everyone, including Buffy herself, what Buffy needs. He gets pissy if Buffy doesn't need him. Obviously Riley left before Buffy succumbed to his manipulations but there is that comparison in the sense that he is trying to turn her into something that she is not.

    She told him that she'd given him her heart. body and soul, and that still wasn't enough for him. Riley's whole thing with the vampire whores was because they "needed" him whereas Buffy didn't. Check his dialogue throughout season 5, the amount of times the word "need" comes out of his mouth and is often used in the same sentence with "Buffy", it's clear that Riley wants Buffy to "need" him and unless she gives him that then he's not interested.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 16, 2017 ---
    @dcai0830 Check out these two posts in the Is Briley abusive? thread for examples of Riley's bad behaviour and his obsession with what Buffy "needs".
    Is Briley abusive?
    Is Briley abusive?
     
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  20. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

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    Black Thorn
    Yes I participated in that discussion! Interesting discussion points.

    I think it is rare to find someone who feels that Briley were forever. Seemed like all of Season 5 was about how the end was coming. And the episode into the woods was the ultimate culmination for all that was going wrong. So great to see if finally end but then she runs after him and I'm like what are you thinking MN? Tell me!!!