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What's with the blood?

W

WillowFromBuffy

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Erm, no it doesn't. Since even if I accept the retcon of Summers blood (which I don't), Buffy still doesn't have key blood because there is no such thing as reverse biology. Dawn is still the only Key with key blood, ergo Buffy jumping should have done nothing.

Dawn gave Buffy hell-key-aids.
 

thetopher

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I quoted what the monk says in my very first post. NOTHING in there about Dawn being made out of Buffy or Buffy's blood. NOTHING. And blood testing was also mentioned in my first post. But never mentioned on the show. And I can only work with what's on screen.
I honestly don't think Buffy is delusional, when she says 'The monks made her out of me, she's my sister I kinda think that she would've confirmed that somehow, like that Dawn is actually related to her and not just a random collection of DNA.
But...does it really matter? Buffy's 'she is me I can replace her!' revelation was a split second one- putting together what the First slayer vision in 'Intervention' told her with other stuff throughout the second half of the season- so she took a leap of logic. And then an actual leap. Hee.
 

RomanticSoul

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Dawn gave Buffy hell-key-aids.
Not how it works, especially since Key blood needs to stop flowing, period, for the portal to close. Dawn up there on the tower, still bleeding. Ergo, bunch of bullcrap.

I honestly don't think Buffy is delusional, when she says 'The monks made her out of me, she's my sister I kinda think that she would've confirmed that somehow, like that Dawn is actually related to her and not just a random collection of DNA.
Buffy is a fictional character. If a retcon needs working, it will. It's not like Buffy can prevent that from happening. But it was never stated by Dawn's creators. It was stated by Buffy because blood was needed for 'The Gift', hence the early part of the Season was forgotten.

But...does it really matter? Buffy's 'she is me I can replace her!' revelation was a split second one- putting together what the First slayer vision in 'Intervention' told her with other stuff throughout the second half of the season- so she took a leap of logic. And then an actual leap. Hee.
It matters when people argue it's canon and base their arguments on it despite their being no evidence for it. Except for Buffy later declaring it is so. And Buffy+logic=oxymoron, so nope.

Erm, the slayer vision can be interpreted any number of ways. For me for example, 'death is your gift' has a completely different meaning and nothing to do with the key/monk/blood plot nonsense.
 
T
thrasherpix
Giles told me to like this for him for your saying, "Buffy+logic=oxymoron." :p

Evil Seal

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They made Dawn and THEN decided to send her to Buffy. Buffy was not involved in the making of Dawn. It's right there in the text. If she was made from Buffy, you needed just to add 3 more words to it.
You're taking things too literally. We're talking about magical monks. First of all, religion is involved so the rules are gonna be blurry, that's a given. Add to that the powerful magicks involved... One cannot be a perfectionist about these lines of dialogue
 

RomanticSoul

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You're taking things too literally. We're talking about magical monks. First of all, religion is involved so the rules are gonna be blurry, that's a given. Add to that the powerful magicks involved... One cannot be a perfectionist about these lines of dialogue
Magics and religion....yet people argue that regular old biology (in the form of blood) was used/needed to create Dawn. If they are so powerful why they need any kind of physical DNA source? And I'm not perfectionist about this. It's a line of dialogue explaining the mechanics of how someone was made. A line that doen't include what people see as canon (that the monk said he made Dawn out of Buffy). In fact it's never stated on screen that they did, unless someone counts Buffy pulling that out of her ass later in the season as canon and not a retcon.
 

thetopher

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It matters when people argue it's canon and base their arguments on it despite their being no evidence for it. Except for Buffy later declaring it is so.
And also the fact that the ending actually happened and the world didn't end. That makes it correct despite the 'lack of evidence'. And it isn't a retcon since it was planned a full season in advance. In fact Season 5 and its ending has been planned ever since S3 'Graduation Day', so still not a retcon.

The show uses this kind of dramatic reveal all the time, not just in S5; from the foreshadowing of Angel's curse (which makes about as much sense as the Key story line really) to the whole 'its the vineyard!' reveal in S7. S5 seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line.


Erm, the slayer vision can be interpreted any number of ways.
No. It can't. In 'Intervention' Buffy is told 'death is your gift' and 5 episodes later we have 'The Gift' where Buffy sacrifices herself. Just because the allusion is vague doesn't mean its not clear in retrospect. It's a twist that actually works.
 

RomanticSoul

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And also the fact that the ending actually happened and the world didn't end. That makes it correct despite the 'lack of evidence'.
Except that the ending doesn't make sense and shouldn't have worked. PER THE RULES and story through the whole Season. Key blood opens the portal and key blood is the only thing that can close it. Buffy does not, never had and never will have key blood. So she can't replace Dawn. And even if you were to argue that Buffy as a slayer is mystical...that's not the excuse Joss used as to why Buffy is able to take Dawn's place. No, the excuse was BLOOD. It's logic fail. If it works emotionally for people, that's fine. But it makes no sense logically via the story told up until that point.

And it isn't a retcon since it was planned a full season in advance. In fact Season 5 and its ending has been planned ever since S3 'Graduation Day', so still not a retcon.
Because Joss said so behind the scenes? One of his frequent, in hindsight, 'oh look I'm so clever' justifications? Sorry but 'word of God' is not what I live by.

The show uses this kind of dramatic reveal all the time, not just in S5; from the foreshadowing of Angel's curse (which makes about as much sense as the Key story line really) to the whole 'its the vineyard!' reveal in S7. S5 seems like an arbitrary place to draw the line.
It's specifically about Dawn and blood, why would I draw anything from the other Seasons into it? That's not the topic.

No. It can't. In 'Intervention' Buffy is told 'death is your gift' and 5 episodes later we have 'The Gift' where Buffy sacrifices herself. Just because the allusion is vague doesn't mean its not clear in retrospect. It's a twist that actually works.
Yes it can. Because it depends entirely on how you see Buffy's death. If you see it as a sacrifice, then it works the way you see it. If you see it as a suicide, like I do, then it takes on a whole new meaning. I don't reject the opinion of those who see it like you. But that doesn't make it the only way to interpret 'death is your gift'.
 

Evil Seal

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Magics and religion....yet people argue that regular old biology (in the form of blood) was used/needed to create Dawn. If they are so powerful why they need any kind of physical DNA source?
Again, I think you're being too literal. It's like when Spike does his "love isn't brains, children, it's blood" speech. It's not literal blood, just like vampires aren't really drinking blood they're drinking life or whatever (well, in this case it's way more literal I agree but the symbolism is stronger than the literal act of sucking blood). Blood has always been used in fiction to symbolize life but also a link to someone or something else. If DNA was needed they could have just done a cheek swab or gotten a few skin cells. Blood is dramatic, blood is love, blood is life, blood is family. All these statements are true without being literally true.
Because Joss said so behind the scenes? One of his frequent, in hindsight, 'oh look I'm so clever' justifications? Sorry but 'word of God' is not what I live by
Technically, if Joss says it or if Buffy "pulls it out of her ass" it is canon. That's the definition of the word. But that doesn't mean you have to like it, you can think whatever you want but it is technically canon (look who's being literal now :p).
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Exactly. It is fiction. It was alluded to by "death is your gift". Buffy figured it out. She jumped. World saved= proof she was right. The end. It's canon. Thank you!

RomanticSoul

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Again, I think you're being too literal. It's like when Spike does his "love isn't brains, children, it's blood" speech. It's not literal blood, just like vampires aren't really drinking blood they're drinking life or whatever (well, in this case it's way more literal I agree but the symbolism is stronger than the literal act of sucking blood). Blood has always been used in fiction to symbolize life but also a link to someone or something else. If DNA was needed they could have just done a cheek swab or gotten a few skin cells. Blood is dramatic, blood is love, blood is life, blood is family. All these statements are true without being literally true.
Still doesn't explain the Dawn/Buffy trade in The Gift. Which is all based on their blood being the same. Which is both retcon and literally impossible because Buffy didn't retroactively become a key. Nothing to do with being too literal, just paying attention to what was said previously and calling foul.

And for the record, the show made it literal, not me. And what do you mean vampires don't drink blood? I guess the blood on their lips after drinking is a production/filming faux-pas? Saying vampires don't drink blood doesn't even make sense.

Technically, if Joss says it or if Buffy "pulls it out of her ass" it is canon. That's the definition of the word. But that doesn't mean you have to like it, you can think whatever you want but it is technically canon (look who's being literal now :p).
No. 'Trust the tale, not the teller'. Joss' own words on the subject. So by Joss' own words...what he says is NOT canon. Or what any writer/producer/director says. Only what's on screen is. And that is what I go by. Interviews, DVD commentaries and the likes, not canon. Never will be. Now the canon on screen, unless straight forward, can be interpreted a multitude of ways. And there is a reason why the word 'retcon' exists. If something that was previously established gets changed later down the line, that's a retcon. What was established was that the monks created Dawn absent and away from Buffy without Buffy's involvement (her blood, spirit, DNA whatever). Dawn was Buffy's sister only by way of mass mind altering, not any shared blood, genetics, life or spirit etc.. The only reason that Dawn later in the Season suddenly had Summer's blood, was because it was needed to pull off the Finale. Nothing more. It's still a retcon with no basis in the show other than Buffy suddenly thinks so.
 

Ethan Reigns

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In "The Gift", we get this exchange:

XANDER
Why blood? Why is it Dawn's blood,
why couldn't it be, like, a lymph ritual?

SPIKE
'Cause it's always gotta be blood.

XANDER
We're not actually discussing dinner
right now.

SPIKE
Blood is life, lackbrain. Why do you think
we eat it? It's what keeps you going, makes
you warm, makes you hard, makes you
other than dead. 'Course it's her blood.

This goes back to Biblical sources where the Hebrew priests sacrificed animals on the altar and sprinkled the blood on it and where Moses sprinkled the blood of the covenant on the people (Ex 24:8). In Leviticus 17:11, the explanation for kosher killing is stated as "For the life of the animal is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." There is no medical reason blood would be credited with consciousness or life, but lack of blood certainly ends life. In our own culture, life is considered to be in the brain and people may be disconnected from medical apparatus when they are brain-dead. This may change somewhat in the future as changes in personality are noted with organ transplant recipients. There are classic stories of someone getting a heart transplant and suddenly wanting to buy a motorcycle and a bit of research shows the organ came from a motorcyclist.

Blood has always been the religious symbol of life regardless of whether you worship God or Satan.
 

Evil Seal

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Still doesn't explain the Dawn/Buffy trade in The Gift. Which is all based on their blood being the same. Which is both retcon and literally impossible because Buffy didn't retroactively become a key.
I don't think it has ever been established that the blood is what makes Dawn the Key, so even if Buffy has the exact same blood as Dawn, it doesn't make her the Key.
And what I'm saying is, it doesn't have to be the exact same blood, there just needs to be a link and that's what the blood represents : family, lineage, link.

And what do you mean vampires don't drink blood? I guess the blood on their lips after drinking is a production/filming faux-pas? Saying vampires don't drink blood doesn't even make sense.
I was just pointing out that a vampire drinking blood has always been a metaphor for drinking the life out of a person. Blood is way more of a symbol in supernatural fiction (and in religion and other stuff as @Ethan Reigns explained) than a biochemical solution containing DNA, and it has to be treated as such if you want to consider The Gift logical.

And we'll just have to agree to disagree on the canon issue, this term is not precise enough for either of us to be wrong.
 

GraceK

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@RomanticSoul I understand the frustration. This is really why they should have ended the series with The Gift if they were gonna do such a game changer as Dawn. It doesn’t work otherwise if your gonna keep her around for 2 more seasons. It all begins to fall apart then. If Buffy’s blood was such a close match for Dawns “key” essence that it could close the portal, couldnt Glory also have used Buffys blood to open it?If Dawn made from Buffy, why doesn’t she have any slayer powers? If Dawn is a bundle of key energy how much of Buffy is in there anyway?

Honestly it makes more sense if the Monks just radically changed history in a physical sense. Like the wishverse almost. Instead of inserting false memories and creating Dawn a few months ago, it would have a much darker and more interesting plot if they physically inserted Dawn into the universe. Like Joyce was actually impregnated by Hank 14 years ago and Dawn was genetically Buffy’s sister. Then this blood link would make more sense. And they aren’t aware they are living in a AU until mid season 5 when Buffy finds out that Dawn is actually not supposed to be there and her life has been a lie.
 

GraceK

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It make her connection and bond with Dawn more realistic as well.
 

RomanticSoul

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I don't think it has ever been established that the blood is what makes Dawn the Key, so even if Buffy has the exact same blood as Dawn, it doesn't make her the Key.
And what I'm saying is, it doesn't have to be the exact same blood, there just needs to be a link and that's what the blood represents : family, lineage, link.
Doesn't. Make. Sense.

If it can be any blood (long as it's linked to the key) then why the whole drama all Season of Glory going after the key? Why all the effort to grab Dawn, and Dawn alone? If it can be anyone as long as there is a link...Buffy offered herself up to Glory how many times? All Glory had to do was grab her. Hell, Hank is walking around there in the world unprotected, grab him. The Key had to be bled (because the key opens/closes the portal) and it won't stop until the blood stops flowing. I mean it's not that hard to get, it's all said on screen.
 
S Rou
S Rou
^ THIS

DeepBlueJoy

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@RomanticSoul I understand the frustration. This is really why they should have ended the series with The Gift if they were gonna do such a game changer as Dawn. It doesn’t work otherwise if your gonna keep her around for 2 more seasons. It all begins to fall apart then. If Buffy’s blood was such a close match for Dawns “key” essence that it could close the portal, couldnt Glory also have used Buffys blood to open it?If Dawn made from Buffy, why doesn’t she have any slayer powers? If Dawn is a bundle of key energy how much of Buffy is in there anyway?

Honestly it makes more sense if the Monks just radically changed history in a physical sense. Like the wishverse almost. Instead of inserting false memories and creating Dawn a few months ago, it would have a much darker and more interesting plot if they physically inserted Dawn into the universe. Like Joyce was actually impregnated by Hank 14 years ago and Dawn was genetically Buffy’s sister. Then this blood link would make more sense. And they aren’t aware they are living in a AU until mid season 5 when Buffy finds out that Dawn is actually not supposed to be there and her life has been a lie.
Two reasons Buffy couldn't be easily used by Glory.
One she didn't know it was Dawn until very late in the day.
Two she would have had a much harder time trying to subdue and control a slayer than she did with Dawn.

A third thought occurs: Glory simply didn't know and never figures out that the shared blood was a thing. Glory was deeply, deeply stupid. Buffy went on a quest to figure it out. I seriously doubt anyone knew she could stop the apocalypse until she actually did it... very probably including her. Even if she knew Dawn was 'from her', I seriously don't think she knew what her 'gift' was, until very late in the day.

Blue
 
Evil Seal
Evil Seal
I wouldn't go so far as to call Glory 'stupid' but I completely agree with the rest

Evil Seal

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My theory - I have no proof of this and I don't really know how to explain it so bear with me - is :

I think the blood that has to be spilled must be the Key's, but the Key's ability to open the portal doesn't reside in its blood. When the first drop of blood is spilled, all that made Dawn the Key leaves her and she just becomes human. At that point, Summers blood (be it Buffy's or Dawn's or even perhaps Joyce's or Hank's) becomes sufficient to close the portal. In other words, you have to be the Key to open the portal but not necessarily to close it.
The same can be said about Slayers, I don't think their abilities come from their blood otherwise there would have been some sort of connection between all the Slayers (and it could even have been hereditary).

Anyways, as I said, that's just my theory.
 

RomanticSoul

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Two reasons Buffy couldn't be easily used by Glory.
Two she would have had a much harder time trying to subdue and control a slayer than she did with Dawn.
Are you for real? Glory was a freaking God who punched Buffy across the room like it was nothing. One good punch and Buffy is down with head trauma. And since Buffy offered herself up for Glory plents of times, Glory doesn't even need to bother to find her.

Glory was deeply, deeply stupid.
Basically, she is Whedon. I see the resemblance.

Buffy went on a quest to figure it out. I seriously doubt anyone knew she could stop the apocalypse until she actually did it... very probably including her. Even if she knew Dawn was 'from her', I seriously don't think she knew what her 'gift' was, until very late in the day.
She stopped the apocalypse in a way it shouldn't have worked. By using Summers blood as the justification. Look, if Whedon hadn't bothered with the blood nonsense and instead relied on the fact that like Dawn (the one and only key), Buffy is one in a billion (since they ignore Faith for these things all the time) as a slayer and that's why she can take Dawn's place...boom, there you have your mystical explanation. But this blood retcon nonsense and then that being the basis for Buffy being able to take Dawn's place. Never gonna work.

I think the blood that has to be spilled must be the Key's, but the Key's ability to open the portal doesn't reside in its blood. When the first drop of blood is spilled, all that made Dawn the Key leaves her and she just becomes human. At that point, Summers blood (be it Buffy's or Dawn's or even perhaps Joyce's or Hank's) becomes sufficient to close the portal. In other words, you have to be the Key to open the portal but not necessarily to close it.
Same blood that opens the portal has to close it.

DAWN: Buffy, you have to let me go. Blood starts it, and until the blood stops flowing, it'll never stop.

Dawn starts bleeding by being cut. Buffy never starts to bleed. I know people excuse this with 'well she died when she fell through from the shock so her blood flow stopped'. But it doesn't solve the problem of Dawn, the portal opener, still being up there and bleeding. Dawn's blood is what opened it and it's what had to close it. Same way it did with Angel/Angelus back in S2 with Acathla.
 
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J

joseph

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So can anyone explain to me exactly where on screen we ever find out that Dawn's physical appearance was created out of Buffy's blood and that Dawn has Summers blood as a result? Where is that ever stated in canon? Did I miss a scene?

And no, I don't want to hear the excuse that Buffy says so, so it's canon. How does Buffy know to begin with? She have a blood test done?

All the idiot monk told Buffy was: 'We had to hide the Key, gave it form, molded it flesh...made it human and sent it to you.'

This in fact makes it clear that Dawn was created apart and away from Buffy. So how on Earth does Dawn have Buffy's blood? Did the monks teleport to Cali and prick Buffy without her noticing before teleporting back? Nowhere in there as far as I remember is it ever stated that Dawn was made from Buffy and therefor has Summers blood. It only comes up when Buffy literally pulls that stupid, nonsensical 'plot' out of her ass. According to the monk, Buffy had nothing to do with Dawn's creation.
I think buffy just said it to stop dawn from killing herself she is apart of the family much like Willow is like part of buffy family.
 
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