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What's with the blood?

Riderofapocalypse

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forgiveness if someone else may have said this.
I believe a dieing monk told Buffy that the monks made Dawn from Buffy. Some part of her, (who knows what). I don't think the show was specific with how or what part of Buffy was used. Whether it be her essence, soul, blood, hair, whatever.
But the more i think about it, the more inclined i am to think that Buffy dieting in the portal shouldn't have done anything. She shouldn't have the mystical mumbo jumbo that Dawn had in her pre-physical energy form.
It's nice to see plot hole whistle blowers for me. To see i'm not alone. But I've given up a long time ago to try and make sense of anything in Buffy/Angel. Helps me like both shows more than i would if i tried to keep continuity.
 
thetopher
thetopher
I agree that Buffy didn't need to diet.

RomanticSoul

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forgiveness if someone else may have said this.
I believe a dieing monk told Buffy that the monks made Dawn from Buffy. Some part of her, (who knows what). I don't think the show was specific with how or what part of Buffy was used. Whether it be her essence, soul, blood, hair, whatever.
No he didn't. I posted all he said in my first post. No mention of Dawn being made from Buffy.
 

wickedwillow

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[QUOTE="

If it can be any blood (long as it's linked to the key) then why the whole drama all Season of Glory going after the key? Why all the effort to grab Dawn, and Dawn alone? If it can be anyone as long as there is a link...Buffy offered herself up to Glory how many times? All Glory had to do was grab her. Hell, Hank is walking around there in the world unprotected, grab him. The Key had to be bled (because the key opens/closes the portal) and it won't stop until the blood stops flowing. I mean it's not that hard to get, it's all said on screen.[/QUOTE]

I need to stop reading these message boards as all your arguments make sense and now I won't be able to watch 'The Gift' in the same way anymore :(
 

Mrs Gordo

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I need to stop reading these message boards as all your arguments make sense and now I won't be able to watch 'The Gift' in the same way anymore :(
Aww - you shouldn't let plot holes like this get in the way of your enjoyment of the story. I agree that not a whole hell of a lot of the minutiae makes sense. Joss tends to put story/narrative/metaphor in front of plot consistency (and sometimes character consistency). But that doesn't mean he doesn't still tell a great story.* This episode still packs an emotional punch. It's still a pretty incredible metaphor that really encompasses Buffy's duality (girl/slayer). It highlights Buffy's desire to let her human self (Dawn) live and re-emphasizes the sacred duty of the slayer is that of saving the world regardless of the cost. It's a good story even with the flaws. I hope you will continue to enjoy it. :)

*Except s8, F Joss for s8. ;)
 
wickedwillow
wickedwillow
we probably shouldn't talk about s8 if 'The Gift' can be torn apart so easily! :)

Spanky

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Aww - you shouldn't let plot holes like this get in the way of your enjoyment of the story.
It's okay that you do though @wickedwillow sometimes too many plot holes, the show mythology that is always changing and characters that act out of character can really affect the enjoyment of a show. Especially on repeated viewings.
 

Octavia

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Maybe it was a failed trinity attempt. Dawn from buffy, buffy from her mother. I hadnt thought too deeply about it. I just took that dawn came from buffy - summers blood at face value.
 

RomanticSoul

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This episode still packs an emotional punch. It's still a pretty incredible metaphor that really encompasses Buffy's duality (girl/slayer). It highlights Buffy's desire to let her human self (Dawn) live and re-emphasizes the sacred duty of the slayer is that of saving the world regardless of the cost. It's a good story even with the flaws. I hope you will continue to enjoy it.
Except we have been there and done this story already. It was called Prophecy Girl. There Buffy actually sacrificed herself for humanity (represented most notably by Willow). The Gift is not that, since you can read Buffy's actions as either a sacrifice or a suicide. I prefer PG, frankly. And there at least I didn't have to listen to endless monologues about how evil and hard life is. Seriously, freaking jump already so you can get your death gift.
 

Taake

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Except we have been there and done this story already. It was called Prophecy Girl. There Buffy actually sacrificed herself for humanity (represented most notably by Willow). The Gift is not that, since you can read Buffy's actions as either a sacrifice or a suicide. I prefer PG, frankly. And there at least I didn't have to listen to endless monologues about how evil and hard life is. Seriously, freaking jump already so you can get your death gift.
Listen. ... the hardest thing in this world... is to live in it. Be brave. Live. For me.

:cool:
 
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Taake

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This whole thread is great. It reminds me the first time I watched the episode (Blood ties?) where Buffy says that they share Summer's blood and I was like - wait, waaat? Isn't she a key created by monks?

The Buffy instead of Dawn just doesn't make sense (especially since Dawn is still bleeding just like two steps away from where she previously stood!). It's a beautiful moment, but it sacrifices story for feelings. Still enjoy it though!
 

Evil Seal

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@RomanticSoul I think it's best we just agree to disagree since we don't consider the same things to be logical. For example, this :
Look, if Whedon hadn't bothered with the blood nonsense and instead relied on the fact that like Dawn (the one and only key), Buffy is one in a billion (since they ignore Faith for these things all the time) as a slayer and that's why she can take Dawn's place...boom, there you have your mystical explanation.
This doesn't make any sense for me, just as my theories don't make any sense for you. I enjoyed discussing this very much nonetheless, thanks for that thread.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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I choose to believe that the TPTB persuaded the Furies to accept Buffy's life in place of Dawn's as a price for closing the gateway and Buffy was shown the plan in her final moments. This is what also triggered the events in season 7, because the First persuaded the Furies that Buffy's revival was a betrayal of season 5's agreement. And then leave it at that, because the postulates of the metaphysics for Season Five simply don't make sense as they have been presented.
 

NileQT87

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Angel's run-in with him at the hospital is actually the first hint to Buffy that the Mayor was seriously mad with grief over what happened to Faith. Less Buffy's intuition and more Angel having first-person knowledge of the highly-strung emotional situation. Dream!Faith basically just reiterated what Angel had already stated he had observed from the Mayor. Angel's infiltration of the Mayor and Faith's confidence and picking up major information that leads to the Mayor's downfall (twice) is never given credit in this fandom. Buffy had diddly squat on the Mayor's weaknesses and was listening to hummus offensives until Angel told about the hospital. He was the only one clued into the Mayor/Faith situation out of the whole Scooby Gang.

As for Dawn, she was clearly made from Buffy, rather than from Hank and Joyce. Her age just made more sense to pretend she was her sister rather than a clone/daughter. Joyce even acknowledges that Dawn isn't really her daughter. She appears to have identical blood to Buffy and she was made out of her directly. Buffy even states that the monks made Dawn out of her. It's possibly more of a Doctor/Jenny clone situation than actually an offspring of anyone.
 
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S Rou

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Erm, no it doesn't. Since even if I accept the retcon of Summers blood (which I don't), Buffy still doesn't have key blood because there is no such thing as reverse biology. Dawn is still the only Key with key blood, ergo Buffy jumping should have done nothing.


To quote the monk AGAIN: We had to hide the Key, gave it form, molded it flesh...made it human and sent it to you.

They made Dawn and THEN decided to send her to Buffy. Buffy was not involved in the making of Dawn. It's right there in the text. If she was made from Buffy, you needed just to add 3 more words to it.

'We had to hide the Key, gave it form, molded it flesh...made it human with your blood and sent it to you.'


I quoted what the monk says in my very first post. NOTHING in there about Dawn being made out of Buffy or Buffy's blood. NOTHING. And blood testing was also mentioned in my first post. But never mentioned on the show. And I can only work with what's on screen.
That's a very good point. I said the same thing... Buffy jumping should NOT have closed the portal. Dawn is the key, which is a mystical essence of energy that was supposedly turned into physical matter... Buffy and dawn technically are not even blood sisters... From my understanding, she is More like a replica of Buffy constructed by the monks... At least, that's what it seems like she is. I don't think actually plucked buffy's (or even Joyce's and Hank"s for that matter) blood and created a living thing out of it... I believe they literally just constructed a new person in the image of buffy, but if you study biology, you learn that even identical twin siblings do not have entirely the same genetics or phenotypes or personalities. Buffy being able to close the portal was a load of bull. Dawn is the key, not Buffy. Otherwise, glory could've just kidnapped Buffy and used her instead of dawn.

Bottom line: Buffy jumping SHOULD NOT have closed the portal. And even if it somehow could, why Buffy would risk it is beyond me... She had no idea whether jumping or not would close it, so for her to make such a foolish and suicidal decision like that when she knew her death could potentially do nothing, was exactly that... Foolish. I really think it's just whedon desperately trying to make people like dawn, who is still wildly unpopular in the overall fandom.

I have said before on other posts and I will say it again, dawn is a plot device who outlived her plot. She should have been the one to die in the gift, not Buffy. I feel like if dawn would have done that, it would've been a lot more meaningful and most of the fandom probably would view her a lot more positively than they do because her sacrifice would definitely atone for how annoying she was the entire season.

Also, I think it would've been better if dawn was not buffy's sister and she was instead some random kid Buffy met who just happened to be the key... The whole sisters thing felt so forced and stupid to me. And Buffy was completely reckless when she threatened Giles and the others if they killed dawn at the end of season 5 when the entire world was literally at stake. Buffy was literally risking the lives of billions of people over a person who isn't even really a person. I don't think the Buffy from seasons 1-4 would've done that.

Overall, I think the show really started to go to shit around season 5... It was still a good season overall, but like I said, I strongly believe that dawn should've died in the gift. Seasons 6 and 7 were completely horrible. The show could've been so much better than what it was in those last two seasons, and let's be honest, the comics are like bad fan fiction.
 
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DeadlyDuo

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Also, I think it would've been better if dawn was not buffy's sister and she was instead some random kid Buffy met who just happened to be the key... The whole sisters thing felt so forced and stupid to me.
Agreed. Dawn could've then gone off to live happily with her fake family once Season 5 was over. Also Dawn being a random kid "chosen" to be the key would make Buffy empathise since she was "chosen" to be the slayer. Also, if it only took a drop of blood to open the portal, why couldn't Glory just take some blood from Dawn, say a pint, put it in a jug then get a minion to pour it to open the portal which gives Glory time to jump through then keep pouring until it runs out. How's the portal going to tell the difference between key blood in a jug and key blood in a body. So long as the blood is reasonably fresh, there's no reason why the portal wouldn't accept that the key was a really tiny person.

Buffy was literally risking the lives of billions of people over a person who isn't even really a person. I don't think the Buffy from seasons 1-4 would've done that.
Agreed. Season 2 Buffy killed the love of her life to save the world even though he was souled and she didn't have time to think things through. She knew what she had to do. The same should've applied to Dawn, then the fallout would be a call back to Season 3.

Overall, I think the show really started to go to shit around season 5... It was still a good season overall, but like I said, I strongly believe that dawn should've died in the gift. Seasons 6 and 7 were completely horrible. The show could've been so much better than what it was in those last two seasons, and let's be honest, the comics are like bad fan fiction.
Agreed. Around Season 5, some of the characters storylines became just about their relationships. Spike had no storyline outside of Spuffy, Tara's storyline was about Willow and her use of magic , Anya and Xander's storyline was about their relationship. None of these characters had anything to do outside of their relationship from Season 5 onwards.
 

S Rou

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Agreed. Dawn could've then gone off to live happily with her fake family once Season 5 was over. Also Dawn being a random kid "chosen" to be the key would make Buffy empathise since she was "chosen" to be the slayer. Also, if it only took a drop of blood to open the portal, why couldn't Glory just take some blood from Dawn, say a pint, put it in a jug then get a minion to pour it to open the portal which gives Glory time to jump through then keep pouring until it runs out. How's the portal going to tell the difference between key blood in a jug and key blood in a body. So long as the blood is reasonably fresh, there's no reason why the portal wouldn't accept that the key was a really tiny person.



Agreed. Season 2 Buffy killed the love of her life to save the world even though he was souled and she didn't have time to think things through. She knew what she had to do. The same should've applied to Dawn, then the fallout would be a call back to Season 3.



Agreed. Around Season 5, some of the characters storylines became just about their relationships. Spike had no storyline outside of Spuffy, Tara's storyline was about Willow and her use of magic , Anya and Xander's storyline was about their relationship. None of these characters had anything to do outside of their relationship from Season 5 onwards.
I definitely think that the first 3 seasons were the best... There's just something about the high school years that was really awesome... Plus Bangel <3 <3 <3

Season 4 was pretty good though, despite the villain kinda being a bit lackluster... Also, the introduction of Tara was the best part of the season.

Season 5 was good but like I said, dawn should've died.... No question about it... Her giving her life to save everyone should have been "the gift."

Seasons 6 and 7 were nightmares...
 

RomanticSoul

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As for Dawn, she was clearly made from Buffy, rather than from Hank and Joyce. Her age just made more sense to pretend she was her sister rather than a clone/daughter. Joyce even acknowledges that Dawn isn't really her daughter. She appears to have identical blood to Buffy and she was made out of her directly. Buffy even states that the monks made Dawn out of her. It's possibly more of a Doctor/Jenny clone situation than actually an offspring of anyone.
Just because Buffy says so, doesn't make it so. Where is the proof that Buffy is right? The people who made the key into a 'human' said nothing about using Buffy's blood. Nothing. In fact they didn't mention Buffy at all beyond being chosen to protect the key. So just because Whedon, later in the Season, comes up with the idea for The Gift and needs 'Summers blood' to pull it off, doesn't change anything of what was previously established. Basically, Whedon retconned how Dawn was made and didn't even bother to put proof in the show. Just have Buffy say so, so that magically means it's true. Yeah, nope.
 

Ethan Reigns

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I think we can agree that we on the Buffy-Boards have expended more energy and intellect trying to make sense out of the Dawn = Key story than the writers put in. I just look at it and one of the (many) plot holes in the Buffy story but it is an important one in that without some justification for Buffy jumping, it is simply suicide. Obviously there is some genetic difference between 5'3" Buffy and 5'7" Dawn. I have seen siblings and even cousins who look alike and could be considered to be genetically similar to the extent that their blood might be magically identical (and who knows what that means) but when one person is earmarked as the specific sacrifice needed to accomplish some magical task, this status is not usually transferrable.

So just sit back and enjoy the story and don't try to read subtleties into it that aren't there. For whatever reason, Buffy jumps, the portal closes, Dawn lives and the world is safe from Glory forever with the help of a bunch of people ending with Giles murdering Ben.
 

RomanticSoul

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I think we can agree that we on the Buffy-Boards have expended more energy and intellect trying to make sense out of the Dawn = Key story than the writers put in.
If you rearrange a whole show, not to mention retcon 4 freaking years out of existence, for a new character...you better make sure you know wtf you are doing. It better be an airtight story that has no holes and therefor leaves no room for different interpretations. If you can't guarantee that, then don't bother with that particular story AT ALL.

without some justification for Buffy jumping, it is simply suicide
It is suicide to me. Thought they established pretty well that Buffy didn't want to go on in life. Hence I interpret 'death is your gift' to mean that 'death is a gift' TO Buffy. And can anyone argue that it was? After all she was happy in 'heaven' where the big, bad life didn't bother her.

So just sit back and enjoy the story and don't try to read subtleties into it that aren't there.
So basically, just accept whatever stupidity the writers come up with so my brain can get as rotted as theirs? And don't bother looking deeper into a show for any reason? Boy, are you on the wrong internet page then. Why are you on a discussion board for a show?

For whatever reason, Buffy jumps, the portal closes, Dawn lives and the world is safe from Glory forever with the help of a bunch of people ending with Giles murdering Ben.
'For whatever reason' doesn't fly. If I'm supposed to enjoy it, don't write a whole episode with so many logic fails. And don't give me an ending that makes no sense whatsoever. Hell, give me a mystical explanation and the ending might work better. But don't use a reason and a way that makes no sense even in the slightest.
 
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