1. Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Ten thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

Article When good TV goes bad: how Buffy the Vampire Slayer started to suck

Discussion in 'Sunnydale Cemetery' started by GwenRaiden, Mar 27, 2017.

  1. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,340
    Likes Received:
    1,154
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    1,082
    This is very good reasoning. Too bad you weren't one of the writers of season 7 so that it wasn't such a mess (hot mess for Spuffy fans).

    However, it's not what Buffy said. She complained of being made less human by having the source of her power, a demon, being pushed into her, and rebelled about it being forced upon her, which she also considered a violation because it was being done against her will. While the Potentials were given a choice, many others were not (arguably Buffy and Willow didn't know, but it's fanon to automatically assume they didn't), and if the power was such a blessing (or at least a necessity) then she should've been willing to take on more (especially after her speech of wanting to see Spike darker and everyone else becoming harsher). I know some on BB also take on this interpretation to explain why Buffy wouldn't accept that power, I believe one even calling it rape, and yet apparently it's okay when Buffy makes others less than human without their consent.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2017 ---
    And just to be clear, Buffy condemned the Shadow Men for making the First Slayer as well, not because they only made one so they could control her, but for injecting her with the essence of a demon (I believe she used the word "demon dust")....which is what Buffy would have Willow do later using the Scythe.
     
    RomanticSoul likes this.
  2. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2017
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    414
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canada
    Reputation:
    211
    Buffy did not "make them less human" she did not put the source of their power inside them she only unleashed it. It was there from birth because of mystical doo-wop. Buffy accepting more of that source from the Shadow Men would not have changed the spell in any way. I think a more correct way to put it, is not that Buffy is "less human" but taking on more of this source would make her less then human. The Shadow men did not approach her for consent, they went straight to their violation go-to and chained her up.

    It is a blessing the potentials know what hey are capable of, their life no longer has the "potential" to change for the worse in the blink of a eye, nobody can pull their strings or sneak up on them unaware.

    On a different note, about the source of slayer power, "the demon dust" in the show Earth started out as a hell dimension and demons are a natural part of their world, hence the Shadow Men needing a special warrior in the first place and we can summarize from both shows that not all demons are bad evil entities, it depends on which species they are and which dimension they come from. Kind of like Adam being "made from red dust" this is metaphorical. They may have used magic to put it into the first slayer and create the line but unlike magic which can corrupt you, there is no reason to believe the slayer energy is "evil" because it is natural, it comes from this world, slayers share it in their lineage with demon, one way to look at it is in terms of evolution, they are as different as chimpanzees and people who share a common ancestor. That is what I would tell any slayer who felt bad.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    Priceless likes this.
  3. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,825
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Germany
    Reputation:
    1,893
    As long as it's not unleashed it has no influence over Potentials. They stay humans with a latent demon that never impacts their lives. Being activated changes their bodies and minds. How hard is that to understand? They have their bodies altered and changed without consent. No they didn't consent to being Potentials and if the system had stayed in place of 'one girl' they would also have not consented to be a slayer. It's a problem I have with the whole system. But what Buffy and Willow did was not even the process of how it usually goes. They chose for these girls/women without asking if that's what they wanted. It's bad enough they all had no say over becoming Potentials and then possibly being chose as 'the one girl in all the world', Buffy and Willow added a third layer of 'no consent' on top of that. And that's fundamentally wrong to me.

    How is this a blessing? When they were just Potentials it seemed like the only threat to ever come gunning for them in thousands of years was The First. As a Potential so far, these girls could live their lives however they wanted. Never knowing they even were Potentials or that things like demons exist. Sure one could randomly be chosen, as was the system, but that's one and not thousands.

    As slayers they are evil's favorite chew toy. Some of them were barely teenagers (see baseball girl), some had children and their own family. So even if these girls/women now have a choice to slay or not, they are still forever changed in body and mind and will be a target as long as they live. Which they weren't when they were potentials. And lets not forget that you would also get plenty of Faith and even Dana like slayers as a result, people who have had crappy lives and are given the power to lash out. I don't see Buffy and Willow writing the families of the humans that their slayers killed and apologizing to them.

    It's still a power that Buffy spend seven years being influenced by to the point where she felt it made her less human. It's still a destiny/job she complained about for seven years. It's still a power that she refused to take more of in S7, despite asking others (like Willow and Spike) to tap into their (often dark) powers. It's still a power that Buffy felt for seven years stopped her from some kind of normal life. Why her relationships, romantic and otherwise, weren't exactly stellar.

    After watching Buffy struggling with and resenting her calling, complaining at length about all the downsides...it's supposed to be a GOOD thing she forced this on thousands of other girls?
     
    Taake: THIS!
    thrasherpix, Dora and Taake like this.
  4. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2017
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    414
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canada
    Reputation:
    211
    Buffy and Willow not doing it how it usually goes is the entire point. They upended the entire system in a brilliant way. The First evil did not see it coming. I do not see it as them adding a third layer of no consent because they were already potentials, anyone at anytime could be called and they had to do it all alone, the weight of the world literally on their shoulders alone, that is the unfairness, not being given super powers or even fighting the demons, because somebody has to right, that is why we have companions. Although you are not wrong @RomanticSoul, it is important have a choice in the matter to be a true heroine. Which is way it is crucial that Buffy accepts her "destiny" in S1 and not run from it or she would end up dead a whole lot sooner, to delve a bit into comics, it was not enough to just do her duty when it showed up knocking on her doorstep, she had to decide not be a victim of circumstance and put her feelings of self pity aside somewhat in order to do the job. It most definitely is selfish to feel sorry for ones self while people who need you are dying and you have the power to stop it but aren't going to. Buffy's choice certainly was compromised but it is important she made it regardless. The potentials have less of a compromised choice to make.

    Next point, Buffy and Willow did not put them in danger, they were already in the process of being exterminated and if they had failed every single one would have been annihilated and every one else on earth would have been in mortal danger living in a new hell dimension. And they were always "targets" because they live in a world with vampires and demons. I don't like saying "A Faith type" she is a specific person but a remorseless killer would be who they were regardless, all super strength does is make them more adapt at committing crimes not responsible for them. Which brings us to the next point, there are a lot more capable Guardians out there now, taking on not just vampires and demons but other naughty humans as well. Buffy and Kendra did not think of themselves as above the law, although that changes in S8, sometimes bucking the system is good!

    Buffy has not forced the same burden on thousands of others because Buffy felt the way she did because she was the one girl with the fate of the world literally on her shoulders alone. It's not like that now, for herself or for anyone else ever.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    Priceless likes this.
  5. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,825
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Germany
    Reputation:
    1,893
    They didn't uproot the entire system. They just added another layer of violation on top of it. Because none of these things include CHOICE. No one is given a choice to be a Potential. No one is given a choice to be the Chosen One. And neither are those thousands of girls/women given a choice to be one of the Chosen Thousands. None of those things include choice, hence each and every one of these are actions taken without consent by the girls/women. There is no difference, no consent is no consent, period.

    And you are forgetting something. Now the death toll could be even worse. Whereas before there was one girl called, chances of a Buffy (someone unknown and with no watcher and therefore totally unprepared) were rather slim. Now you have thousands who have absolutely no idea what the hell is going. Who suddenly have superpowers but who are utterly unprepared and not trained. And who untrained and unknowing have demons and such kicking down their doors because that's what demons do, targeting slayers.

    The point you are missing is that it's all about choice, in EVERY aspect. Even a slayer can't be forced to do her duty. Just because you suddenly get superpowers and a stuffy English person comes knocking, doesn't mean you have be a slayer. Buffy chooses to do it because she is a good person. Because she has the power to stop the badness from happening. And not choosing to do so would be hard for her to live with. However, is it really a choice then? Kendra does it out of duty because she was raised since birth to be a slayer. Did she truly have a choice though since she knew no other life because her family put the duty over their child? I'm sure Nikki would have loved not being the slayer once she had her son except just like Buffy she is a good person and therefore doesn't really have a choice but to continue.

    None of them however HAVE to slay and do their duty IMO, precisely because they weren't given a choice in the matter.

    We never heard of Potentials being specifically targeted before S7. Which means that for thousands of years, no one went out trying to eliminate the slayer line. We have however heard and seen over and over that evil things love gunning for the slayer specifically. And sure these girls/women were potential targets as all humans are because demons and such exist. But that makes them 1 in billions of potential targets. It doesn't make them THE TARGET in billions of potential targets. That one woman in the montage who clearly had a husband and kids will either have to leave them so they are safe or spend the rest of whatever little life she has now and defend them against whatever comes FOR HER. Where before she was allowed to life her life and her family was safe as can be. Being a random victim of demons is different from being a target of them.

    So basically Buffy was tired of having to be the only one, so she spread it around so she wouldn't have to be alone in it anymore? And this selfishness makes violating thousands ok? I think not.

    The problem is that the activation didn't make a damn difference for that battle. Which was supposedly the reason why it was done. Activating all the potentials to have a slayer army didn't beat The First, Wolfram & Hart did. Look, I wouldn't have issues with the whole thing if the Potentials in Sunnydale, who were previously told were the ONLY Potentials left on Earth, had been activated. They were there, they knew and they gave consent. My problem is the thousands, who previously didn't exist, who didn't give consent.
     
    Dora likes this.
  6. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2017
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    414
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canada
    Reputation:
    211
    The accusation that no consent was given thus no meaningful choice can be had is bothersome because the role of choice figures really heavily in the metaphorical framework of the show. Having read and I think understood your rationale for why you didn't favor the ending I have to strongly disagree. What you see is definitely there but I think there is a mix up in the meaning of it all. The Slayer, the one and only Slayer was "The Chosen One" destiny and prophecy and all that, there is not much choice involved and that is the heroes journey, once the call to destiny is answered begins the story of Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

    And there within this framework, is where the choices get made, the parable is that all of us are all limited by circumstance and chance, things outside our control, what happens next is what matters.

    We are not meant to read the Chosen finale as a to be continued.. but as a finale so lets leave whatever takes place in the comics out of it for now. Spike saved the world and the spell is a triumphant ending to Buffy's hero journey. The spell liberates Buffy, she is free, she is the hero of the story, our eyes into which we view and experience this world. The spell metaphorically empowers every girl in the world, every person, every would be hero who has survived the hell of adolescence. (That is us the viewers sans gender ) and canonically empowers every potential literally.

    The speculation of what happens after the curtain call, (What about Cleveland?) is speculation. It is meant with silence. Anything is possible.

    Your conversation made me think through this some more and I like the ending a little more then I did before, all are entitled to their opinions and favorite seasons. Thanks.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2017 ---
    I want to add, the questions about Nikki and Kendra are minutiae within the larger story being told and speculation about rogue slayers and possible consequences are just that, speculation, outside of the story. I do not logically infer these things or get these questions from what is shown on screen, which does not mean it is wrong to ask them, it is fun but it is a slightly different conversation. We are both right, the conditions under which the slayers operated were a burden, it was unfair and oppressive, I see the questions that were raised about autonomous choice as addressed with in the show, as part and parcel of the shows story its self.

    This reminds me a lot of the discussion we had about Dawn, you did not care that it made Buffy look manipulated into loving Dawn from a logical stand point from the writing, because of the false memories, that she did not have a real choice in the matter and that was important to you, where as I always understood the question of choice to be part and parcel of the story they were telling, the question is its self, setting the framework where in Buffy makes her choices.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    Priceless likes this.
  7. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,825
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Germany
    Reputation:
    1,893
    What do you mean I didn't care that Buffy was manipulated? Of course I did. Since the whole problem with that story is forced adoption for both Joyce and Buffy (aka NO CHOICE). And Whedon's refusal to deal with the consequences of the mind altering. Not just for Buffy but for a lot of characters, largely because the big OOC moments and retcons started in S5. So I can never be sure if a character development was organic or of this is how the person is programmed via the new memories.

    Was Riley's development organic (I say NO) or did the monks want him out of the way so Buffy is more focused on Dawn? Was Spike falling in love with Buffy also the monks doing? Since they literally didn't tell us why Spike fell in love (other than via wet dream)...maybe the monks figured as a demon he would be better to protect Dawn than Riley and Buffy didn't have feelings for him so win/win from their POV. Buffy's refusal to let Dawn jump even when it meant the destruction of the whole world INCLUDING Dawn, that can't have been choice. That plus the fact that Buffy was willing to kill her friends goes way past 'choice'. This sounds like programming to me.

    It's an issue I have with Whedon through and through. He's good with the dialogue and he's good at coming up with big ideas, he just seriously lacks the execution unless he has someone at his side who can make it make sense (ala Greenwalt for S1-3). He wants these big moments but he doesn't care how he gets there. If characters have to be twisted inside out that's fine with him. If they have to go seriously OOC, again fine. If it violates show canon, no problem. If it overthrows the entire Season's arc, again not an issue. If it retcons 4 freaking Seasons out of existence, who cares. There are far reaching consequences that lead to serious questions of you do something large scale as mind-altering or body/mind altering of thousands. And if you ignore those consequences, then it leads to giant problems for viewers to piece it all together. Which is jut one of the many reasons why I don't care for the Dawnverse.
     
    Dora likes this.
  8. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    2,396
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Texas
    Reputation:
    1,854
    Black Thorn
    I agree with so much of this article, word for word, thought for thought. I was so sadly disappointed in Season 7. I thought Buffy would learn so many lessons after Season 6, I could handle them breaking her down if they were going to build her up but they didn't. My childhood hero was essentially forgotten and it was very sad. In fact no much attention was paid to Buffy at all in this season. She was cold and distant and not quite there.

    I also agree very much with SMG's acting in Season 7. And SMG is a remarkable actress, so you know there was behind the scene reasons for her not being engaged. Maybe she was tired, but honestly I don't think she bought it. And I was so freaking tired of Buffy being so down in the dumps in Season 7. After Season 6, I just wanted her to smile!

    The irony is JW said he wanted to "take it back to the beginning" for Season 7. And Season 7 was so far off from where we started, Scoobies, and friendships, lessons learned, and BUFFY's journey (not Spike's...). This whole Season could not have been less about Buffy. It was about Potentials and ancillary characters I didn't care about and weird Scoobies who didn't seem to like each other very much and of course Spike's story.

    But I did enjoy End of Days/Chosen. I thought the plot was stupid, and lazy writing (for reason's I'll explain below). But I loved seeing Buffy be a leader, lead an army, I loved her partnership with Faith and finally seeing them work together, I loved her strength during the last episode. I did see alot of the Joss I loved during the Season finale, the witty dialogue and the grander metaphors for what I interpreted as Buffy finally embracing the power she had been given and being empowered by it. But you have to really ignore alot of plot holes to get here...

    I agree so much of her acting was very low energy, and she seemed depressed which I couldn't figure out if she was playing depressed or if SMG was just getting depressed playing this version of Buffy. But she had good energy in this scene:

    [​IMG]

    ;)

    I have conflicting feelings over the potentials being activated. The problem I think stems from the stupid story they told about the Shadow Men, the show directly made the comparison to the Slayer power being synonymous with violating the first Slayer. If they had instead presented the power as something positive, empowering, then I would have found it less problematic that they activated all of these girls. If you think about it as a liberation of the control of the Counsel over these women who are essentially disposable to them, if you think about instead as essentially giving these girls/women a chance to become the Champions they have the capacity of being, then I am on board with that. If it comes from a place of empowering women. BUUUUUT....

    No one ever talks about that in the finale. No conversation is even had about whether they should have empowered all of these potentials to begin with and maybe given us a grand speech about why Buffy thought it was a good idea. Especially because as @RomanticSoul soul says, this is a power that Buffy always struggled with, felt burdened with since she was called. But if there had been some consideration, some well written justification why this was not imposing this incredible burden on these girls but instead giving them a chance to become warriors for good, then I could have had less of a problem with it. And then the BIGGEST problem with all of this is that...

    NONE OF IT f*cking MATTERED. Empowering the potentials essentially did nothing in the battle against the First, maybe they were able to kill a few extra turkey khans but really the way they won the battle was some random amulet that had nothing to do with the skythe OR the slayers. The battle was won by a deux ex machina from Wolfram and Hart and THAT is the saddest thing of all. What was the freaking point of activating all of these girls if they weren't going to be the ones that foiled the first? If them and the skythe wasn't going to be what actually ended it all?
     
  9. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,825
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Germany
    Reputation:
    1,893
    IMO an actor can only be convincing as a charater if they understand the character. SMG always understood Buffy better than even JW ( I STAND BY THAT). And she was always more interested in what was in character for Buffy versus Joss who was more interested in the story. I prefer her approach.

    Funny you said S6 though. For me it started in S5 already. The last time Buffy was happy and had a genuine smile on her face was early S5, not counting things like magical spell induced smiles. And then nothing until her reunion with Angel in S7. That's 3 freaking Seasons of 'kicking the Buffy'. It's one thing when bad things befall your character. It's another when bad things befall your character and the character when presented with a choice, chooses the way that ensures even more unhappiness. And then the character whines about their lot. Well guess what, stop whining because all you have to do is choose better and proactively change your life for the better. In other words 'fight for it'. I've simply had no sympathy anymore for Buffy. If she is happier being unhappy and miserable (hello martyr) then I'm not going to feel sorry for her and hope things get better. I mean, girl is looking for a way out and gets her suicide in S5, spends S6 wishing she was dead and in S7 is actually the walking dead because that's about as 'alive' as she was.

    Black tentacles going up Buffy's skirt. I mean come on, I'm tired of being sledgehammered with Marti's metaphors or Martiphors if you will. You really can't get more graphic with monster rape than that.

    Now someone better familiar with the S7 story might be able to tell me. But weren't we told that the Potentials currently in Sunnydale were the last in all the world? Hence the need for protection. And then Whedon comes back from Fireflop and basically overturns the Season arc for another one of his 'cool moments'. The Finale doesn't fit the rest of the Season. The Scoobies, people who can't stand each other anymore, are suddenly best friends again. Dawn, whom Buffy didn't give a damn about once Marti came back, is suddenly a focus of Buffy's again. No one talks about all the consequences of mass empowering because a) these thousands of Potentials previously didn't exist anymore and more importantly b) if they had talked about it, it would have ruined the surprise of the cool moment (the montage of all the non-Sunnydale girls/women). Whedon sacrifices everything for the cool moment and like I said, it's one thing I hate about him and which makes him a crappy storyteller.

    The point was the super cool montage. That's pretty much it. Not enough for you? :p
     
    Dora, dcai0830 and Taake like this.
  10. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    2,396
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Texas
    Reputation:
    1,854
    Black Thorn
    I should clarify that what I meant is after what they put her through in Season 6 I wanted to see her smile. I agree she hasn't smiled at this point since before Joyce died.
     
    Dora likes this.
  11. thrasherpix

    thrasherpix Scooby

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,340
    Likes Received:
    1,154
    Gender:
    Female
    Reputation:
    1,082
    QFT

    This is arguably the biggest sucker punch of season 7 to fans like me, though unfortunately I can think of contenders.

    Btw, nice observation on SMG's acting. I wasn't sure if SMG was simply demoralized with playing Buffy's character, or if she was trying to show Buffy as being overwhelmed by pressure and under combat fatigue. I hadn't caught that subtle bit, how when Angel shows up we really do get Buffy back if only for a very short while...which makes me think that SMG really was "going through the motions" at playing Buffy because she either didn't share the writer's vision (though that won't stop her from doing her job, but after season 6 it must've been tiresome by then), or simply because she didn't even know who Buffy was anymore (and so didn't really know how to portray her).
     
    Dora and RomanticSoul like this.
  12. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2017
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    414
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canada
    Reputation:
    211
    He will always sacrifice canonical continuity for a emotional truth and I think that applies here and works here. For a lot of Buffy fans at least.

    As far as Spike being the actual reason for the destruction of the Turok Han and The Firsts plans, doesn't bother me, why should it, Buffy herself, by herself, not being enough to defeat the The First evil is the point of throwing out the rule book.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
    TriBel and Priceless like this.
  13. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Manchester
    Reputation:
    622
    What I don't get...what I categorically do not get...is this idea of canonical continuity. What does it MEAN? :confused: Physical laws - I get that. However, even they're changed by advances in science. I'm fairly sure Galileo and Copernicus p****** somebody off in terms of canonical continuity - "Oh look...the sun doesn't go round the earth anymore" (I think I typed that in Spike's voice). And I dread to think want circumnavigating the b***** globe did for the stress levels of the FlatEarthers. EVERYTHING CHANGES! :mad: Society, people, ideas are all in a constant state of flux. Name one thing that remains constant. If we had canonical continuity on Earth we'd still be wondering what to do with fire!

    What's so special about canonical continuity? Am I missing a geek gene?
     
  14. Taake

    Taake Bella Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    12,769
    Likes Received:
    7,340
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Stockholm, Swe
    Reputation:
    42,757
    Black Thorn
    Coherency for me, as in overall sense or understandability.

    If circumstances cause Buffy to say make a choice, then after the fact you change those circumstances, then her choice no longer makes sense. I'm watching a story being told, not a philosphical treatise on the metaphysics of the Buffyverse, without continuity I don't care about the story because the story then doesn't matter, hence the show and it's characters become irrelevant. At best then, it's a visual piece for pretty girls and boys in tight clothes showing off the occasional high kick, and that's not enough for me.
     
    thrasherpix: Perfectly said. :-)
    Dora, thrasherpix, DeadlyDuo and 2 others like this.
  15. RomanticSoul

    RomanticSoul Scooby

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,825
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Germany
    Reputation:
    1,893
    Nice if it works for you. But so what? Not everyone is like you. If it doesn't work for me then I'm just different than you. If I'm engaged in the story and characters I might overlook some glaring errors in the story (see the earlier Seasons). But if the characters are utterly lifeless and unlikable and the story has more holes than Swiss cheese, I just can't overlook the glaring mistakes or OOC stuff forced on characters that's sold to be as some BS character development.

    You see it one way, I see it another. The end.

    And seconded at what @Taake said above.
     
  16. dcai0830

    dcai0830 You spent three weeks moaning in a basement!

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    2,396
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Texas
    Reputation:
    1,854
    Black Thorn
    Because Buffy actually played no part in defeating the First. Well except give Spike the magically ambiguous amulet. It's not like this was about how if Buffy's friends work together they could defeat the first, essentially Buffy could have given Spike the necklace sent him down there and booked it out of Sunnydale. Spike literally won the day. And the problem I have is it wasn't his show.
     
    Dora likes this.
  17. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Manchester
    Reputation:
    622
    And Spike wouldn't have been there had she not supported him throughout the season. Buffy was the catalyst for the whole thing. The whole point of the finale was collective action. Giles asks "WHAT did this" not "Who did this". Her response is "Spike". That's Spike as a positive symbol - not as an individual. Personally, I have no problem with it - anything that gently undermine the ethos of individualism is fine by me.
     
    Priceless likes this.
  18. Meliza

    Meliza Potential

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2017
    Messages:
    318
    Likes Received:
    414
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Canada
    Reputation:
    211
    I don't have anything to argue with this statement really, love the point about Spike, Buffy was the catalyst for his redemptive arc, of course she was.
    Now this is a point of discussion, I come down on the side of the series as not really being a true "ensemble drama" it has always been about Buffy and her journey the rest of the cast play a symbolic role as detailed in Restless. Now, looking at this way, all of us are right. It is just a matter of opinion. If you think Spike got to much screen time and the core four got less then they deserved in the final season, you are absolutely entitled to that opinion, I held that opinion myself, I only came to see things differently some fourteen years after the show had already been off the air! and that is the fun of it, one can always come back taking something different from it. I think I do more clearly understand the role symbolism and metaphor play in and throughout the series.

    Reading the conversation about the acting quality, I can see that perspective, I might have held it viewing season 7 during its run myself originally, I don't quite remember what I made of Buffy's depression never quite dissipating but since I love the show so much it was probably pretty close to my current view, that is, I was not so much looking back on what could have been (Actually, thirteen me was surprised post High School Buffy was not living the glamorous superhero lifestyle, yeah what?) but because as I matured I realized that was never Buffy's life to begin with so I appreciated that Buffy was not stagnating. And at the end of every episode things did not reset to zero, with consequences seemingly vanishing leaving no impression. I am glad Buffy grew up with me. So I didn't make much of Sarah Michelle Gellars acting choices except that is, in recognizing that Buffy wasn't the same girl anymore and grateful for it to be looking back and wondering where the jovality was at, where the S4 camaraderie was at? cause I never saw Buffy, Willow and Xander as sitting around watching movies and braiding each others hair because they weren't those people anymore, that was consistent writing to me.
     
    Priceless and TriBel like this.
  19. Priceless

    Priceless I didn't forget y'know

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Messages:
    5,539
    Likes Received:
    5,536
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    UK
    Reputation:
    4,259
    @TriBel already said it better than I could, but to me the season was about, as Buffy says, 'power, who's got it and who knows how to use it . . . ', and that's what the finale was about, everyone equally empowered to do their part. Not just Buffy, but all the scoobies, even Dawn who had no power and very little history of fighting anything as dangerous as the Turok Han. Spike was equally as empowered by Buffy as everyone else, because empowement leaves no one out.

    You could argue that it's always a group effort and never totally reliant on Buffy. In season 1 Buffy couldn't have defeated the Master without Xander, and she couldn't have killed Angelus in S2 without Spike, and she couldn't have defeated The Mayor without the whole school, and she couldn't have defeated Adam without the 3 scoobies and she couldn't have defeated Glory without Giles killing Ben, and it was Willow who defeated Warrren and Xander who defeated Willow.
     
    Meliza and TriBel like this.
  20. TriBel

    TriBel Scooby

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2017
    Messages:
    599
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Manchester
    Reputation:
    622
    Okay - I understand the cogency argument but don't we all sometimes make choices based on what we think we know only to find later that that choice was a wrong one? So - you could decide to take a new job and move house only to find you're redundant six weeks later. For me, that's what's realistic about the show - that's where it has a foot in the realist genre. As far as I can see, it's nothing to do with metaphysics. I can see how the narrative structure changed but that doesn't make the characters irrelevant. People change - relationships change - circumstances change. Sometimes life overwhelms you - sometimes it doesn't. The metaphysics (or what I think you're referring to as the metaphysical aspect of the show) were there from the beginning (in fact, it foregrounded metaphysics by introducing a vampire with a soul). There had to be a belief system underpinning the action otherwise it wouldn't have made sense. It's simply that it didn't impact on the characters because of where they were in their life-cycle. So, like Cordelia, you don't worry about money until the adult world kicks you in the teeth and your dad loses his job. And, IMO it's less a visual piece in the later episodes than it is in the earlier ones (but that is just IMO).

    There are untidy discontinuities (such as mistakes made over who sired Spike) but they're just stupid errors. I can't see the problem with Joyce dying - people die and it alters the lives of the people round them - it probably happens in all of Dickens' novels and most of Shakespeare's plays. I'm sure people didn't want Marley to die but he did (never watched it). Stories advance through a series of kernel moments - the point in the narrative where something happens and the character is involved in a choice. For better or worse Buffy made those choices as she does throughout the series. Yes - the key may have been jumping the shark but in a programme centred so much on the supernatural it was in big fish infested waters to begin with. I really can understand why some people dislike it - I really, really can. I can understand why people don't like Spuffy. I can understand why people don't like Dawn. I just don't understand an argument based on discontinuity with the canon - life doesn't have a canon (unless you believe in a totally deterministic universe). The key in BtVS makes far more sense to me than Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shadow in Dallas.;)
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 18, 2017 ---
    IMO - Willow and Spike (William) are connected in this. They were connected by Dark and the end of S6 (Dark Willow - Dark Warrior) and by Light at the end of 7. It's Spike and Willow (drawing strength from the other) who get Buffy back in Get it Done and she's pushed them to go the extra mile by throwing herself through the portal. Power is connection.
     
    Priceless likes this.