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Whirlwind sexually

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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Sineya
I read this on a web story & was wondering what people thought of it since there is something to it .

Composed of Angel (David Boreanaz), Spike (James Marsters), Darla (Julie Benz), and Drusilla (Juliet Landau), the Whirlwind was a quartet of mischief-making bloodsuckers who put a twist on the longstanding tradition of using vampirism as code for queerness. Crucially, though, the vamps on Buffy aren’t just coded as queer— they’re canonically bisexual.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
Crucially, though, the vamps on Buffy aren’t just coded as queer— they’re canonically bisexual.
Wait, what? Canonically? That's a stretch to say canonically. Maybe (head)canonically based on circumstantial evidence. Unless things transpired in the comics that I am not aware of.
 

ChaseRules

When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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Sineya
:p Well they said a few times that Darla & Dru would fool around . And that would be one reason why Angel & Spike don't get around.
 

TriBel

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Crucially, though, the vamps on Buffy aren’t just coded as queer— they’re canonically bisexual.
It really depends on whether you're talking about actual sex or sexuality/gender and its structural relationship to society (which is what's implied with "using vampirism as code for queerness") - in which case Spike is queer. Angel isn't - Angel is as straight as an arrow. The actual sex between the male vamps is - I think - just a tease. The female vamps I'd have to think about because the coding (and desire) works differently for females.

Useful synopsis of different perspectives here (extract below):

"Indeed, the key to the appeal of the ‘Buffyverse’ is the way in which it invites the notion that binary ways of thinking are redundant. The possibilities offered by challenging binary constructions of gender are articulated most completely through the body of Spike. Indeed, it seems as though Spike’s character performs that which other characters in the series (and other sympathetic vampires in history) only promise. Where other character pairings in Buffy the Vampire Slayer only promise the pleasures of homosexual and/or queer desire that are never realised, Spike acts out erotic desire in a manner that undermines heterosexual/ homosexual and masculine/feminine binaries. As this issue will demonstrate, Spike thereby exemplifies Braidotti’s ‘nomadic subject’, ‘a myth, that is to say a political fiction, that allows [me] to move across established categories and levels of experience: blurring boundaries without burning bridges’ (1994: 4).

In the sense that Spike acts out erotic desire, he has a great deal in common with the 19th-century lesbian vampire (despite his male identity). Nina Auerbach (1995) suggests that unlike her male counterparts, the lesbian vampire Carmilla (Le Fanu, 1991[1872]) performs the promises of the sympathetic vampire, ‘she arouses, she pervades, she offers a sharing of the self. This female vampire is licensed to realize the erotic, interpenetrative friendship male vampires aroused and denied’ (1995: 39). While the erotic relationship between the vampire Angel and Buffy results in the reanimation of Angel’s bad self, Angelus, which amounts to a refusal of interpenetrative intimacy and a reassertion of gender boundaries, Buffy’s pairing with Spike is far more fluid and complex. Like the lesbian vampire of more than a century earlier, Spike is capable of an intimacy and a sharing of the self that other males in the series (even other sympathetic vampires) cannot accomplish. Thus Spike absolutely blurs the line between male and female desire, and between homosexual and heterosexual desire."
 
B
Btvs fan
Angel and Spike slept together according to Joss Whedon

DeadlyDuo

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Spike is straight too- When Lindsey buys Spike a drink in Angel Season 5, Spike tells him "sorry, not my type".

As for Dru and Darla, I think the only time we see them fooling around together is the threesome with the Immortal, and it's unclear if they were under some sort of pheromone influence at that time. All we know is that Darla won't let Angelus have a threesome with the two of them.

My question would be, and this is something that seems to happen in every fandom, why can't two guys just get along with each other without fans trying to turn it into a gay thing?
 

Btvs fan

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Spike is straight too- When Lindsey buys Spike a drink in Angel Season 5, Spike tells him "sorry, not my type".

As for Dru and Darla, I think the only time we see them fooling around together is the threesome with the Immortal, and it's unclear if they were under some sort of pheromone influence at that time. All we know is that Darla won't let Angelus have a threesome with the two of them.

My question would be, and this is something that seems to happen in every fandom, why can't two guys just get along with each other without fans trying to turn it into a gay thing?

Joss Whedon on the Hole in the World Commentary confirms that Angel and Spike slept together
 

DeadlyDuo

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Joss Whedon on the Hole in the World Commentary confirms that Angel and Spike slept together

I don't believe that (as in I believe he said it, I don't believe they actually did sleep together). At worst, I think Angelus got extremely drunk, got into Spike's bed thinking it was Darla's, got a little handsy, only to quickly realise his mistake. Let's not forget Whedon completely forgot that Warren was dead when he wrote the "canon" Season 8 onwards comics and also forgot that Sunnydale had docks (where several important scenes took place in-show) when he decided to have the town fall into a crater in the middle of the desert just because it served the plot.
 
D
Dneifrenid
Spike states in "Power Play" that he and Angel were intimate one time.

TriBel

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Joss Whedon on the Hole in the World Commentary confirms that Angel and Spike slept together
Yeah...they hold hands...it doesn't mean they're engaged. 😏 They joke about it and holding hands is a means to an end. Whedon shouldn't have to confirm it...that's the point. If he wants people to know it then show it. LBGT people deserve proper representation (God knows - it's been lacking for so long).

As I said, I understand "queering" as a concept that "dismantles the dynamics of power and privilege persisting among diverse subjectivities." From this perspective Buffy/Spike are a very queer couple; Buffy/Angel aren't (which is ultimately why Spuffy interests me and Bangel doesn't). Whedon's not stupid...he knows this (I'm sure a large chunk of his degree was Women's/Gender Studies). That said, while I feel qualified to talk about "queering" (an idea certain Arts disciplines "borrowed" from Queer Theory) I'm not in a position to experience BtVS as a gay person. If they see something I don't then good for them. All I'm saying is I don't see a structural organization of desire that suggests "bi-sexual". It's there but it's there (ironically) in Spuffy...until S12 (which is why I'm not happy with S12).
My question would be, and this is something that seems to happen in every fandom, why can't two guys just get along with each other without fans trying to turn it into a gay thing?
You are Anthony Mackie and I claim my £10. 😄 Seriously, if you get a chance watch this

:
 

thrasherpix

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Lots of gay men can have a type of man they're into while others leave them cold (or worse), just like everyone else.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
Lots of bi people too. I find maybe 80% of either gender uninteresting, and maybe find 1% truly set me off... But oh boy, do the set me off!

Priceless

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@TriBel, could you argue Buffy/Angel could be partially queer, because although Angel has a soul he is still a vampire and therefore othered?
has a history of telling people want they want to hear. He often contradicts himself just to please fans.
I don't think that's it. Or so much would have been different in the show. I think it's just that he doesn't have one coherent view, one story to tell. He's moving through different things, finding new stuff he wants to incorporate along the way, listening to what other writers are telling him. I don't think it really has much to do with the fans, no matter how he might frame it.
 

TriBel

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could you argue Buffy/Angel could be partially queer, because although Angel has a soul he is still a vampire and therefore othered?
IDK is the honest answer. I suspect he desires to be/to be like his dad (whether it's the evil father or the good father). He's also pretty good at sustaining dualisms (even though it isn't always borne out in practice). Spike's much more fluid. I thought Angel would become more fluid after S11 but at the end of S12 he's doing what Illyria (God/Emperor) tells him to do. He is more grey, more blurred on his own show but the Noir Detective developed for precisely that reason...to accommodate the grey. Also... as a detective he got to define good/bad...and I don't think that's a privilege Spike has (is it?). I'll be honest I haven't given him as much thought as Spike. D'you think he blurs gender boundaries?
 

Priceless

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D'you think he blurs gender boundaries?
I'm not sure what your definition of gender is. For me it's a set of sexist stereotypes. Does Angel fit with a set of sexist stereotypes about what a man should be and how he should look and behave? Yes I think he does, though I think he wishes he didn't, he never blurs the boundaries.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
The article also states:
Darla and Dru even had a threesome with Dracula in Angel’s “The Girl In Question.” That revelation is either ignored by fans or simply unknown to more casual viewers
and ...
Throughout the series, Spike and Angel walk in on Drusilla and Darla having sex
and ...
yet Spike and Angel share their own electric connection. Their first encounter is so steamy, it establishes a near-instant bond between the two
and ...
For Spike, Angel, Drusilla, and Darla, queerness is just a fact, an element that frequently goes unmentioned
and ...
[spike and angel] their intense connection can easily be recontextualized as an epic, volatile, centuries-spanning love affair.


Granted, I've not watched it in some time, but I don't remember that happening. Sounds like they recontextualized a lot of things so it fit their narrative.
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
I was going to say the same thing.
thetopher
thetopher
They have their academic theories about the show and queerness and whatever, then they reference the show and you realize, oh, they never really watched the show.

Stake fodder

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As far as I know, the idea of Spike and Angel together is built entirely on the one line in AtS5, " Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...." But even if it does indicate they once had sex, one time does not define a sexual orientation. It could have been an experiment, domination on the part of Angelus, or as @DeadlyDuo says, they could have been drunk.

Like the lesbian vampire of more than a century earlier, Spike is capable of an intimacy and a sharing of the self that other males in the series (even other sympathetic vampires) cannot accomplish. Thus Spike absolutely blurs the line between male and female desire, and between homosexual and heterosexual desire."
I think what this is saying is that, because Spike sometimes acts like the passive partner, he is blurring gender boundaries. I can't read the articles that are linked to it, but a summary of one says, "Spike’s relationship with Buffy is often based on Spike taking the traditional ‘woman’s part’ (a desire for intimacy) and Buffy taking the ‘man’s part’ (sex followed by flight)...." For me, I think it's a stretch to equate that with true 'queerness,' which is about feeling gender-fluid within oneself, not just going against traditional stereotypes.

We all view the show through our own lens, and I am not gay or trans. But I do feel I'm fairly open-minded, and I just don't see anything that indicates that either Angel or Spike are bisexual or gender-fluid. Darla and Dru we don't see enough of together to really determine, though Darla did give Dru a bath once.

why can't two guys just get along with each other without fans trying to turn it into a gay thing?
And they don't even really get along! :D I think it's fine for fans to headcanon what they want, but I just don't see it in the text myself.
 
T
thrasherpix
Lesbian here with some strong tomboy elements when I was younger when seeing the series for the first time. I don't see it either, but don't care if others do. Writers shoehorn and twist the characters more than many fans so no big to me
Priceless
Priceless
I think there is an innate sexism in saying women are passive during sex and that's what being feminine is all about

Btvs fan

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I don't believe that (as in I believe he said it, I don't believe they actually did sleep together). At worst, I think Angelus got extremely drunk, got into Spike's bed thinking it was Darla's, got a little handsy, only to quickly realise his mistake. Let's not forget Whedon completely forgot that Warren was dead when he wrote the "canon" Season 8 onwards comics and also forgot that Sunnydale had docks (where several important scenes took place in-show) when he decided to have the town fall into a crater in the middle of the desert just because it served the plot.

Well he's on the commentary with Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof and says that to them.

I know on another commentary (I can't remember which one) where Christian Kane or David Fury said that James himself had wondered if Angel and Spike had been an item but that DB just told him not to worry about it and just go with it.

In terms of textual evidence in S5. In Power Play Spike mentions that he and Angel were never close well except for that 1 time.

Well he heavily implied it in the S8 comics too. Buffy saves Spike from being killed by Angel and says they might have ended up sleeping together (referring to her dream) to which Spike replies "I never told you about that"

So he's clearly made it textual that they slept with each other at least once.
 

Spanky

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Well he's on the commentary with Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof and says that to them.
This is what he said:
“I’ve never seen a more intense or beautiful romance. We finally found the right girl for Angel, and I’m sort of kidding… They were hanging out for years and years and years and years. They were all kinds of deviant, they were vampires. Are we thinking they never…? Come on people, I’m just saying. I’m just saying. They’re open-minded guys. They may be evil, but they’re not bigoted or close-minded.”
 

Priceless

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This is what he said:
“I’ve never seen a more intense or beautiful romance. We finally found the right girl for Angel, and I’m sort of kidding… They were hanging out for years and years and years and years. They were all kinds of deviant, they were vampires. Are we thinking they never…? Come on people, I’m just saying. I’m just saying. They’re open-minded guys. They may be evil, but they’re not bigoted or close-minded.”
I like this. He's talking like a fan. He's not saying they definitely did, he's saying they could have. It's like he wants the audience to think whatever they want to think. To me this is so like Whedon. Nothing is ever concrete, everything is changeable and in the eye of the viewer. Or at least that's how I read this.
 

AstridDante

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As far as I know, the idea of Spike and Angel together is built entirely on the one line in AtS5, " Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...." But even if it does indicate they once had sex, one time does not define a sexual orientation. It could have been an experiment, domination on the part of Angelus, or as @DeadlyDuo says, they could have been drunk.


I think what this is saying is that, because Spike sometimes acts like the passive partner, he is blurring gender boundaries. I can't read the articles that are linked to it, but a summary of one says, "Spike’s relationship with Buffy is often based on Spike taking the traditional ‘woman’s part’ (a desire for intimacy) and Buffy taking the ‘man’s part’ (sex followed by flight)...." For me, I think it's a stretch to equate that with true 'queerness,' which is about feeling gender-fluid within oneself, not just going against traditional stereotypes.

We all view the show through our own lens, and I am not gay or trans. But I do feel I'm fairly open-minded, and I just don't see anything that indicates that either Angel or Spike are bisexual or gender-fluid. Darla and Dru we don't see enough of together to really determine, though Darla did give Dru a bath once.


And they don't even really get along! :D I think it's fine for fans to headcanon what they want, but I just don't see it in the text myself.
I don’t think Spike was ‘passive’ per se in the Spuffy relationship. He regularly sought to take control and he had a lot of sexual powers over Buffy. They had it over each other I would say. However I do agree he was looking for intimacy always wanting to talk about the relationship where it was going what it meant to Buffy and she was the one trying to keep it to just physical.
 
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I have no problem with the theory for the whirlwind but the one reason I have to question how much real work was put into it is this; Darla and Drusilla were not mentioned to have had a threesome with Dracula in "The Girl in Question". It was the Immortal that they have the threesome with, and whom Andrew told them Buffy was allegedly dating (note the season eight comics contradict that). This is also where it is said neither Angelus nor Spike were allowed a threesome with the female vamps which contributes to why they don't like him.
 
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