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Who Killed More Humans: AI or the Scoobies?

Myheadsgonenumb

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Do you include Angel locking the lawyers in the wine cellar and walking away? If we're classing deliberate failure to save alongside actual taking of a life then that might change numbers.
And are we counting when various characters turn evil? Does Angelus s4 kills count as AI? And if not ... what about Dark Willow flaying Warren? Does that count as a scooby kill?
 

nightshade

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Black Thorn
Actual taking of life, Angelus doesn't count, neither does Spike under the influence of the First.
 

RachM

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I feel like the Scoobies edge out AI, if only because of the Knights Buffy killed during Spiral. But if we are counting Angel locking the W&H Lawyers in with Dru and Darla, that would probably tip the scales.
 

thrasherpix

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I'm gonna go with Scoobies, despite not counting Angelus, Spike without a soul, or even Anya as a vengeance demon. Nor am I counting that which is plausible but not shown (girls who killed themselves while under the influence of the love spell Xander had Amy cast, or those killed by Sweet that was summoned by one of the Scoobies--I personally think Dawn rather than Xander, but that's another topic). It's the knights that provide the numbers. Though as the knights attacked (more than once) it was justified self-defense (and should be counted more like war than crime, though no Earthly government, that we know of, sanctioned it).

Still, if counting Angel locking the lawyers up with vampires then it becomes a lot more iffy. In the real world, people who use animals to deliberately kill others (from use of bee stings against those death allergic to some snake handler who provoked his snakes to bite his wife and then declare that his wife lacked proper faith or she'd have survived) are considered legally liable for it so it makes sense to count those killed because Angel locked them in with 2 vampires. The only reason I don't automatically give this to AI is that it was done by Angel and protested by AI (much as how some of the things Faith did were protested by the Scoobies until she joined the Mayor at which point she was no longer a Scooby even in name).
 

WillowFromBuffy

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Letting other people kill your enemies for you seems to be a bit of a theme with AI. They gave one of their employees to a group of werewolf cannibals.

Buffy slicing the throat of that Taraka guy with her ice skate often gets overlooked. It is quite a bad ass moment. Faith killing Finch should count as a Scooby kill, as the Scoobies all took shared responsibility for it, seeing as it could have happened to Buffy (like if that guy who jumps her in the Halloween mask had a bad fall :p)

Buffy doesn't kill that many knights. There is one that gets an axe in him, and then she kicks a few off the bus. It is hard to say how many survived. The bus isn't moving all that fast. I've fallen off a horse and lived, and the bus is clearly slower than the horses.

Giles kills Ben, but he hides it from the other and even tells Ben that Buffy would stop him if she knew, so I don't think that counts as a Scooby kill, even if a Scooby did it.

The murder of Lindsay was pretty unambiguous. Wesley killing Knox should perhaps not be counted, as Angel told him not to. Three members of AI competed to kill Fred's professor, but Angel himself wasn't in on it.

I guess you have to define very carefully which ones count. Both groups had quite a bit of collateral damage, though, if you count all of it.
 

DeadlyDuo

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I think any kill made by a member of the group should count as part of the group tally eg Giles killing Ben would count as a scooby kill even if the other scoobies would've disapproved of it.

AI probably has the biggest human kill count due to Angel locking the lawyers in with Darla and Drusilla, however Oz killed Veruca, Giles killed Ben and Buffy kind of killed the zoo keeper plus the coach in Go Fish so that's at least 4 in the scooby kill count.
 

Btvs fan

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I think any kill made by a member of the group should count as part of the group tally eg Giles killing Ben would count as a scooby kill even if the other scoobies would've disapproved of it.

AI probably has the biggest human kill count due to Angel locking the lawyers in with Darla and Drusilla, however Oz killed Veruca, Giles killed Ben and Buffy kind of killed the zoo keeper plus the coach in Go Fish so that's at least 4 in the scooby kill count.
Angel also lets Harmony go, with a reference no less, her future body count should be on him too.
 

RachM

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Angel also lets Harmony go, with a reference no less, her future body count should be on him too.
Actually, Cordy lets her go but I hardly think that means that Cordelia is responsible for any future killings.

-EDIT-

Just realised you meant Not Fade Away, but still don't think that Harmony's killings should be on Angel's head. That's just ridiculous. By that logic, Buffy should be held responsible for any and all murders Harmony committed after Real Me, considering she let Harmony escape.
 
Last edited:

Btvs fan

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Actually, Cordy lets her go but I hardly think that means that Cordelia is responsible for any future killings.

-EDIT-

Just realised you meant Not Fade Away, but still don't think that Harmony's killings should be on Angel's head. That's just ridiculous. By that logic, Buffy should be held responsible for any and all murders Harmony committed after Real Me, considering she let Harmony escape.
Of course he should. He let go a souless Vampire which he knew would kill again and gave her a job reference to boot.

Yes Buffy should be held responsible too. Crush is incredibly stupid where she just stands and lets both Harmony and Dru walk away.
 

RachM

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Of course he should. He let go a souless Vampire which he knew would kill again and gave her a job reference to boot.

Yes Buffy should be held responsible too. Crush is incredibly stupid where she just stands and lets both Harmony and Dru walk away.


So, by your logic, anyone in the Buffyverse who has let a vampire or demon go is now responsible for every death that vampire or demon causes ... I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. Letting a vampire or demon go loose does not make Buffy, Angel or anyone else responsible for that vampire or demon's actions.

Also, if we're specifically talking about Harmony, she'd just come off a full year in which she hadn't deliberately killed a human being and was living off animal blood, so Angel letting her go (with a reference) doesn't come across as that crazy. For all Angel knew, she had adapted and wouldn't kill again, if nothing else for her own self-preservation; if she's not killing, no one's trying to kill her in return.
 

WillowFromBuffy

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If Buffy and Angel are responsible for whatever Harmony ever does, then they are also responsible by all the lives that were saved by Reform Vampirism.
 

Btvs fan

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So, by your logic, anyone in the Buffyverse who has let a vampire or demon go is now responsible for every death that vampire or demon causes ... I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. Letting a vampire or demon go loose does not make Buffy, Angel or anyone else responsible for that vampire or demon's actions.

Also, if we're specifically talking about Harmony, she'd just come off a full year in which she hadn't deliberately killed a human being and was living off animal blood, so Angel letting her go (with a reference) doesn't come across as that crazy. For all Angel knew, she had adapted and wouldn't kill again, if nothing else for her own self-preservation; if she's not killing, no one's trying to kill her in return.
"I knew you'd turn on me I just didn't know when"
"You betrayed me, you are betraying me now"

He knew exactly what she was and what she was doing. He also knows that if he doesn't kill her, she will kill again.
 
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