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Why did Tara/Anya let Willow perform the Resurrection Ritual?

forbuss

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This is something that has always seemed odd to me - why did Tara and Anya stand by and not say anything about the very risky spell they were all wanting to perform? I would find it really hard to believe that one or both of them didn't know what could of happened. What almost happened.

I have always had the (maybe false) impression that Tara actually had a much wider knowledge of witchcraft than Willow did. Sure, I can agree Willow had more power, or at least could access more power - but Tara seemed much more learned than Willow overall. For this reason, I believe she would have known the dark magics they were about to tamper with. Was she just desperate to get Buffy back? Or was she trying to please Willow? To me, it didn't fit with Tara's character. She started having concerns about Willows selfish use of magic shortly after the season six premiere. Is this what triggered Tara's concern?

Anya was a demon and it could be argued that she would have also known. I hold her a little less responsible than Tara - maybe being around this kind of magic was normal to Anya due to her past. What sort of Magic Box contacts did she go through to secure the things for the spell? Evil ones? Was she also desperate to get Buffy back, or did she just want to please Xander?

Finally, Spike and Giles knew the risks of the spell and this is why they were kept in the dark about it. Is it believable that Spike and Giles had this knowledge and neither Anya or Tara did?

Lastly, I find it fully believable that Xander wouldn't have had a clue.
 

Taake

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That's a good question, I feel like it is likely that Giles would have understood the risks better than anyone (and been the stick in the mud adult of the situation saying no-no-no), but as for it being believable that Spike would know rather than Anya and Tara... good question.

I think that it is believable that Spike would have some knowledge of the risks, if not specifics, but had to be kept in the dark mostly because they wouldn't be able to trust his reaction if Buffy came back 'wrong' in the truest sense (zombiefied) and as he is stronger than all of them this makes him a great risk if their wills would conflict.

It seems like Anya should know the risks, but maybe didn't have the same moral compass as the others and wouldn't interfere for that reason. Like, I'm sure she was fairly supportive of the idea of bringing Buffy back for the good of Sunnydale, but it feels like it wasn't a matter of huge significance to her whether or not Buffy came back in general. She would have, as well as Xander probably, dealt with it and moved on with life if Willow hadn't pushed for it. So for her it feels like bringing Buffy back is a convience (yay for Sunnydale, yay happy Xander and all that) but if Buffy came back wrong or it didn't work, then killing zombie-Buffy or having no results is not a big loss either way to Anya. I kind of get the feeling she was just along for the ride but not very invested in the outcome.

Tara is trickier. Cause it does feel like she knows more about magic than Willow at times, at least about the risks and responsibilities, if not specific spells. She would also have been able to easily look up the spell and its risks, even if she didn't know it before hand. It is not like Willow just intuitively knew it. She got the information somewhere, Tara could have as well. I'm going to suggest that her silence on the matter comes from her love and trust in Willow.

She is basically blinded by love in a sense and decides to trust Willow's assurances regarding the spell, even if she may have misgivings about it. I think she is starting to grow concerned, as you mentioned, about Willow's use of magic but is still at the phase where she is like "she wouldn't lie to me, she wouldn't do this really risky thing, she would tell us the truth" because she still wants to trust in and believe the best of Willow
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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Well that's the question ... just a few months ago Tara was adamant that you never brought people back from the dead. And now here she is ...now if only we knew someone in her life that thought only their point of view mattered, uses magic to solve all their problems and had the power to alter their friends' minds so that they wouldn't disagree with them and kept a handy little herb on the bedside table which allowed them to do just that then maybe maybe we would be able to pinpoint why she had this radical change of heart.
 

Faded90

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Well that's the question ... just a few months ago Tara was adamant that you never brought people back from the dead. And now here she is ...now if only we knew someone in her life that thought only their point of view mattered, uses magic to solve all their problems and had the power to alter their friends' minds so that they wouldn't disagree with them and kept a handy little herb on the bedside table which allowed them to do just that then maybe maybe we would be able to pinpoint why she had this radical change of heart.
The herb already being on the bedside table certainly makes you question if it’s even the first time she’s used it
 
Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
oh she goes straight to it and knows exactly what to do - it's not the first time!

Priceless

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Joyce's death was from natural causes and Buffy's was supernatural. I think that may have had a bearing on Tara's change of heart. Plus they all seemed to believe Buffy had gone to a hell dimension, and it never occurred to them she was in heaven, I guess because she fell through Glory's portal to hell. There is also the question of Dawn being left alone. Tara felt that when her mum died. She had family but they didn't seem to love or care for her, and I imagine she empathised with Dawn a great deal. I think all these things played into Tara convincing herself Willow was doing the right thing,
 

Ethan Reigns

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In Bargaining Part 1, we see Willow return with the blood of a faun and Tara seems to be none the wiser:

TARA: Hey. You're late.
WILLOW: Oh. (too casual) I, uh, had to get that thing.

Willow goes to the counter, holding a small leather bag.

XANDER: Giles isn't around, you can dump the cryptic.
WILLOW: (nervous) The last spell ingredient.
XANDER: Okay, right. What is vino de madre anyway?
WILLOW: (walks over to them) Wine of the mother. Kind of ... black market stuff.
TARA: Black market, you-you didn't tell me that. You shouldn't have gone alone, it could have been dangerous.
WILLOW: Sorry. I didn't ... I was careful.

If Tara had been aware of what was required for this spell, she would have known that something had to die to allow Buffy to live and probably would have stopped Willow. The substitution of balanced offerings in exchange for the ability to alter reality are the fundamental part of witchcraft and Tara should have known that. This is also the first place we see Willow lying to Tara. But Tara has an implicit trust in Willow, so she does not object.

Anya is just along for the ride and is only there because Xander is there and she wants to show her support for him. She does seem blasé about all of this - she was a demon, she must have seen this level of magic used many times and did not express any concern about it.
 

forbuss

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Okay all of these answers are literally fabulous responses.

I tend to agree with most of you - Tara's trust and love for Willow is what made her (possibly blindly) follow Willow. I would have loved to see more of a foreshadow of their relationship ending - maybe they had an argument over the ethics and dangers of the spell?

In Bargaining Part 1, Willow purposefully does not tell Xander and Anya she would be "tested" during the ritual. If I am remembering correctly, Tara says something like "she said she would be tested" when she starts vomiting the snake and being cut. I think this shows that Anya did not know the true ins and outs of the spell, or maybe just didn't pay enough attention in the preparation (which they were all a part of).

All in all, I think this shows that Willow was at least a little manipulative in her convincing (or possibly forcing?) the others to do the spell. I am unsure if Tara would have known about the deer sacrifice - if she didn't she easily could have found out. Willow was also alarmed that Anya used a Magic Box supplier to secure some of the spell ingredients, presumedly because she did not want Giles to find out.

My purpose in posting this thread was because I really don't like Willow in this season - I find that she basically treats everyone like crap. But I think the others should have shared more of the responsibility even though the spell wouldn't have happened without Willow. I don't believe Tara could have performed this spell, and I don't think she would have. This has always confused me as a plot point.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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I think one thing we can't overlook in the scoobies agreeing to go along with the plan, is how close it is to Buffy's death and how lost and leaderless they are - when, for Xander in particular, they have always had a leader - always had a boss to tell them what to do ever since their group formed. Buffy is dead, Giles is packing up to leave town. Anya - as noted - is mostly there for Xander, he is pretty much the only thing she cares about and will follow his lead but other than her, everyone involved in the spell is very young. The fact that they take the time to nominate a leader and take a vote and make a placard with sparklers shows how young and lost and in over their heads they are ... and Willow is taking advantage of that. Maybe not meaningfully so, but she is young too and very naive and has the confidence and arrogance that comes with lots of power and no experience. Add in the grief she and Xander feel and the need to make things better for the pair of them that Tara and Anya feel and .. she could get them to agree to anything at this point.

It's interesting that she specifically says not to tell Giles and Spike 'because they wouldn't understand'. When actually, what she means is, they would understand all too well. She purposefully keeps this hidden from the two people old enough and wise enough to challenge the authority she has just been given, and instead concentrates on bringing along those who are too inexperienced and overwhelmed to know any better.
 
forbuss
forbuss
This is very succinct.

WillowFromBuffy

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I think it is important to remember that Willow is still riding high off of S5. Tara in particular owes her life and her sanity to Willow's willingness to save her through the use of dark magic. It would be kinda hard to say no to her at this point. She was the one who pulled everyone, including Buffy, through when things were at their darkest. She's their new leader.

And Tara probably knows that Willow will not be able to move on with her life before she has exhausted every possibility of saving Buffy from whatever fate she has been left to. Willow wouldn't be able to live with the knowledge that there might be something she could have done, and Tara wants to have a life with Willow.

Then there are good arguments for why the world still needs Buffy. The Hellmouth needs a guardian and Dawn needs a ... guardian. If Willow hadn't resurrected Buffy, everyone in Sunnydale would be raped by massive biker demons with anatomical incompatibilities.
 

forbuss

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I think it is important to remember that Willow is still riding high off of S5. Tara in particular owes her life and her sanity to Willow's willingness to save her through the use of dark magic. It would be kinda hard to say no to her at this point. She was the one who pulled everyone, including Buffy, through when things were at their darkest. She's their new leader.

And Tara probably knows that Willow will not be able to move on with her life before she has exhausted every possibility of saving Buffy from whatever fate she has been left to. Willow wouldn't be able to live with the knowledge that there might be something she could have done, and Tara wants to have a life with Willow.

Then there are good arguments for why the world still needs Buffy. The Hellmouth needs a guardian and Dawn needs a ... guardian. If Willow hadn't resurrected Buffy, everyone in Sunnydale would be raped by massive biker demons with anatomical incompatibilities.
I think you raise an interesting point. I think that the group, led by Willow, convinced themselves the world needed Buffy when in fact it really didn't. They just needed her - they didn't know who they were without Buffy. They all had developed identities that branched from their association and friendship with the slayer.

I think they thought that they couldn't be the Scoobies without her. Sure, they were doing the upkeep of demon and vampire slaying as a group (with the Buffybot) but they didn't like being the "actual" slayer, they didn't want to do it. It was only fun or enjoyable for them when Buffy assumed the risk and was also there to protect them - something Buffy needed to do in order for them to be around. I think this is really why they all went along with the spell: their fear of being ordinary - which they were without Buffy.

Which leads me to another point - why the heck didn't anyone try to get in contact with Faith? At this point, she was the only slayer. I am unsure of Faith's timeline in season six - was she on Angel at this point? Was she still crazy?

Poor Faith. They preferred a bogus robot to her. Although I low-key love the Buffybot.
 
thrasherpix
thrasherpix
Faith was in prison until Buffy season 7...she busted out to save Angel/stop Angelus in Angel s4 with Willow's help who then took her back to Sunnydale with the cops still looking for her (First was stupid for not exposing her to cops)

Faded90

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I think you raise an interesting point. I think that the group, led by Willow, convinced themselves the world needed Buffy when in fact it really didn't. They just needed her - they didn't know who they were without Buffy. They all had developed identities that branched from their association and friendship with the slayer.

I think they thought that they couldn't be the Scoobies without her. Sure, they were doing the upkeep of demon and vampire slaying as a group (with the Buffybot) but they didn't like being the "actual" slayer, they didn't want to do it. It was only fun or enjoyable for them when Buffy assumed the risk and was also there to protect them - something Buffy needed to do in order for them to be around. I think this is really why they all went along with the spell: their fear of being ordinary - which they were without Buffy.

Which leads me to another point - why the heck didn't anyone try to get in contact with Faith? At this point, she was the only slayer. I am unsure of Faith's timeline in season six - was she on Angel at this point? Was she still crazy?

Poor Faith. They preferred a bogus robot to her. Although I low-key love the Buffybot.
I don’t think they would have trusted Faith enough at this point to be honest
 
forbuss
forbuss
I always trusted Faith. Except for most of the show (ahaha).

WillowFromBuffy

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Which leads me to another point - why the heck didn't anyone try to get in contact with Faith? At this point, she was the only slayer. I am unsure of Faith's timeline in season six - was she on Angel at this point? Was she still crazy?

Poor Faith. They preferred a bogus robot to her. Although I low-key love the Buffybot.
I've never understood this argument. The Scoobies don't trust Faith, and they have no reason to. She's the last person they would turn to.

Faith is in the Stockton Women's Facility. She does not appear on either show this season.

I think Bargaining demonstrates the Scoobies does indeed need Buffy to keep the Hellmouth safe. They do their best to keep the Scooby running with the B team, but they're no match for those demons. It could theoretically have worked with Faith, but as the Scoobies still consider her an enemy at this point, she's not really an option.

And Faith is only really able to escape and avoid recapture next season due to Jasmine and The First Evil. If the Scoobies brought Faith to Sunnydale in S6, the cops would find her and either capture or kill her.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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The thing is ... Buffy is the only slayer who lived in Sunnydale. Kendra didn't, Faith only turned up out of curiosity to meet Buffy and stuck around, the previous slayer wasn't in Sunnydale, Nikki was in New York, the Chinese slayer was in China, there's a hellmouth in Ohio completely unguarded. There doesn't have to be a slayer in Sunnydale full stop.
If they are unable to cope with slaying (which is fair enough) they are free to give up any time. No one expects them to be demon hunters their whole lives. Giles is going home to retire. So I think this:
I think this is really why they all went along with the spell: their fear of being ordinary - which they were without Buffy.
is very true and very astute. They don't want to give up and lead ordinary lives. They're not up to the task without Buffy ergo Buffy must be brought back. But I think this is more true of Willow and Xander, for whom being in the slayer's group was a huge part of their identity, than it was for Tara and Anya - so it still doesn't really answer the original question of why they both go along with it.
 

forbuss

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The thing is ... Buffy is the only slayer who lived in Sunnydale. Kendra didn't, Faith only turned up out of curiosity to meet Buffy and stuck around, the previous slayer wasn't in Sunnydale, Nikki was in New York, the Chinese slayer was in China, there's a hellmouth in Ohio completely unguarded. There doesn't have to be a slayer in Sunnydale full stop.
If they are unable to cope with slaying (which is fair enough) they are free to give up any time. No one expects them to be demon hunters their whole lives. Giles is going home to retire. So I think this:

is very true and very astute. They don't want to give up and lead ordinary lives. They're not up to the task without Buffy ergo Buffy must be brought back. But I think this is more true of Willow and Xander, for whom being in the slayer's group was a huge part of their identity, than it was for Tara and Anya - so it still doesn't really answer the original question of why they both go along with it.
I think you offered a great read on the scenario.

Maybe it was simply "peer pressure" - the Scoobies had a caste system, an unspoken (or in the case of Willow being voted the leader, spoken) hierarchy that was based on power but also based on real life friendship dynamics.

Tara had only really just been accepted into the gang in season five. She was a woman who always felt on the outside - because she was gay, because she was a witch, because she wasn't "typical" or of the "norm". She also lived with family trauma (shout out to Amy Adams) that we got to see in "Family". She was literally demonized by her father, brother and step mother. She was also likely demonized because of her sexuality, or at least held a perception that folks wouldn't accept all that she was and wasn't.

So maybe this is the real reason she went along with it. She wanted to move up the ranks of the gang to feel like she belonged - something she hadn't found until she was welcomed into the group. Maybe she thought the group wouldn't be a group without Buffy, because she was the glue. Maybe this was worth more to Tara than the risks associated with the spell.

In terms of Anya - I'm not sure. Anya was a very valuable resource to the crew with her years of demonic experience. I sortof think Anya didn't care about being accepted into the group and didn't really understand the dynamic of it because of her past. I think it could be argued that Anya was never truly accepted into the Scoobies in the way others were, namely Tara. So I think the others who have said she went along to go along to keep Xander happy.

Ironically enough, I hate Willow and Xander in this season. I loved Anya and Tara - especially Tara and Buffy's friendship that we got to see blossom.
 
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WillowFromBuffy

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The thing is ... Buffy is the only slayer who lived in Sunnydale. Kendra didn't, Faith only turned up out of curiosity to meet Buffy and stuck around, the previous slayer wasn't in Sunnydale, Nikki was in New York, the Chinese slayer was in China, there's a hellmouth in Ohio completely unguarded. There doesn't have to be a slayer in Sunnydale full stop.
I guess need is relative but there are many mentions of Buffy lowering the mortality rate. If half the Sunnydale population being killed or raped by biker demons is sustainable, then there may not be a need.
 

Faded90

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I guess need is relative but there are many mentions of Buffy lowering the mortality rate. If half the Sunnydale population being killed or raped by biker demons is sustainable, then there may not be a need.
Agreed. For all we know Boston’s went to hell in a hand basket since S3 😂
 

garfan

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Well that's the question ... just a few months ago Tara was adamant that you never brought people back from the dead. And now here she is ...now if only we knew someone in her life that thought only their point of view mattered, uses magic to solve all their problems and had the power to alter their friends' minds so that they wouldn't disagree with them and kept a handy little herb on the bedside table which allowed them to do just that then maybe maybe we would be able to pinpoint why she had this radical change of heart.
you think with the angst that show piled on during that season they'd have never brought that up if it was true?

Bull
 

thrasherpix

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you think with the angst that show piled on during that season they'd have never brought that up if it was true?

Bull
Actually, I think they can. I've seen some interesting ideas put forth in which the writers weren't just making it up as they went along (and many of us don't accept that Xander was the one to summon Sweet with reasons that show it would be a major plot hole if he had, and it's believable he'd "throw himself on a grenade" to save Dawn), but that they were putting in a lot of subtle details to clue in viewers. Here's one example:


Come with me now, if you will, gentle viewers. Join me on a new voyage of the mind...

"As You Were" opens with Buffy at the Doublemeat Palace, scraping grease as she gets a lecture on Machiavelli from a co-worker. Random? Probably not, since this is Buffy, Land of the Meaningful Non Sequitur (remember Tara's little Quasimodo monologue in "Crush"?), and there were a million other ways to establish that (a) Buffy's at the Doublemeat, and (b) there it blows.

So, Machiavelli, huh?

Well, Machiavelli's famous for writing "The Prince", one of the main points of said work (I paraphrase because I care) being that people can be pretty dumb, and sometimes the ruler (as the smarter person who knows what is better for aforementioned dumb people) is required to do some really ethically grey stuff in order to cattle-prod the stupid towards the greater good.

Well. Isn't that special. Hold that thought.

After an interlude to discuss Buffy's meaty reek, we're back at Revello, where Spike pops out from behind a tree to ask Buffy for some lovin'. They then get their naughty on right there in the front yard, because heaven forbid Buffy let Dawn down by having sex with Spike in her bedroom; it's far gentler on little Dawnie's subconscious if she happens to wonder what's taking Buffy so long, looks out a window, and sees her sister takin' it from the undead against a tree.

Moreover, wasn't Buffy just in the graveyard? If we needed a Spuffy sex scene here, why didn't they get horizontal on a tombstone or something?

Instead, here they are, boinking like bunnies in a well-lit area next to the mailbox in front of God and the neighbors and...

And hey, wait... what terribly interesting camera angles! Why do we keep looking at this scene from way the hell down the street, like we were some sort of former Initiative member who'd come to the first place he'd think of to look for his ex-girlfriend?

Did I say that out loud?
It goes on. And plenty of us thinks it works (others think Petrie just has that much of a...hmm, family friendly board...admiration for Riley and hatred of Spike that created one of the worst eps). If this fan theory isn't true of the writers then this episode is riddled with so many plot holes, many big enough to drive a mack truck through, that it shouldn't even be considered canon as it's too nonsensical that doesn't fit with the rest of the season.

But if it is true, then other hidden bits and winks could be hidden throughout as well. Granted, while subtext and easter eggs and all that are nice, they shouldn't make us think THAT hard to figure it out (but then again we're gonna think about it harder than the writers ever did anyway).
 

Faded90

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Actually, I think they can. I've seen some interesting ideas put forth in which the writers weren't just making it up as they went along (and many of us don't accept that Xander was the one to summon Sweet with reasons that show it would be a major plot hole if he had, and it's believable he'd "throw himself on a grenade" to save Dawn), but that they were putting in a lot of subtle details to clue in viewers. Here's one example:




It goes on. And plenty of us thinks it works (others think Petrie just has that much of a...hmm, family friendly board...admiration for Riley and hatred of Spike that created one of the worst eps). If this fan theory isn't true of the writers then this episode is riddled with so many plot holes, many big enough to drive a mack truck through, that it shouldn't even be considered canon as it's too nonsensical that doesn't fit with the rest of the season.

But if it is true, then other hidden bits and winks could be hidden throughout as well. Granted, while subtext and easter eggs and all that are nice, they shouldn't make us think THAT hard to figure it out (but then again we're gonna think about it harder than the writers ever did anyway).
I agree about this episode barely being able to be considered canon. The entire episode is just very mean towards Buffy’s character as well. The Buffy depression arc has been fantastic but this episode veers into ‘tragic Buffy’ in a way I really don’t like. We have multiple people comment on her burger smell, she’s got super speed but apparently is unable to catch the garbage truck and falls asleep on the couch under her dirty coat for some unknown reason to really add to the ‘sucks to be you Buffy!’ Feel this episode has. We also have Buffy apologise for why her relationship with Riley ended, pretty much taking full blame when we’d had a whole arc in S5 concluding in I was made to love you where Buffy came to the realisation that Riley barely giving her a chance to mend things was actually really unfair

My headcannon has always saw this episode as Riley’s ‘Awakening’, a daydream where you think up of how you’re going to show your ex what she’s missing. It fits together perfectly:

Why Joyce’s death is never once referred to (because then Petrie would have to acknowledge that Riley was being a self absorbed mess in what turned out to be the last few months of Buffy’s Mothers life)

The Spike thing - I’m not a Spike apologiser but the Doctor storyline made zero sense for Spike’s character. I understand he’s evil and could see him in a stupid scheme but an international arms dealer selling demon eggs to foreign governments? Come on now, plus there’s no way he keeps them in the place he’s been having sex with Buffy for months - Particularly when Buffy seemingly comes by unannounced . This plot is never ever mentioned again

Why pretty much everyone fawns all over Riley in an extremely odd way. Buffy has never been a particularly flirty person even with guys she really likes but in this episode she’s almost embarrassingly the doe eyed girl. Everyone treats him like he’s Jonathon in Superstar and it’s very weird

His Mary Sue wife who is brave and strong but also just humble enough to Buffy. She apparently has the perfect advice for Xander and Willow, advice that none of their best friends are able to come up with. In the next few episodes though that advice turns out to be useless as all 3 main scoobies problems descend even further - almost as if their advice was never given

Like in Awakening where Angel is super cool and heroic Riley has apparently now became a badass that he never really was before. He now has a cool new scar, makes witty one liners and a crazy cool car. He apparently knows ‘who to beat for information’ (something Riley never did when he was in the show before) . Also he’s in a covert ops squad, which is so covert he and his wife get picked up by a helicopter in the middle of the Main Street in Sunnydale, really? Not very covert is it

I see the Spuffy breakup scene as the only ‘canon’ thing in this episode, literally not a single other thing in the episode is ever referred to again. I see no holes in my theory 😂
 

garfan

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numerous statements suggest they were just making it up as they went along
 
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