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Why do people not like Wood & Faith together?

Antho

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Maybe it's my dislike of the character but I thought he was supportive of Faith so he could be the power behind the throne.
I don’t see Wood as being such a manipulative person like that. I don’t think he is interested in such things like powers.
 

Antho

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He worked to manipulate Spike into his garage,
Because Spike killed his mother. It was vengeance. He did that for his own personal interest, not for power or anything else. It’s different with Faith.. I don’t think he uses her to have access to power like you suggested.. he has no interest of doing that.
 

Priceless

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Because Spike killed his mother. It was vengeance. He did that for his own personal interest, not for power or anything else. It’s different with Faith.. I don’t think he uses her to have access to power like you suggested.. he has no interest of doing that.
I disagree. I think he has some residual resentment towards Buffy and uses Faith as a weapon against her. I'm not saying he doesn't like Faith, I think he does, but he's not above using her. He likes Giles, but he's not above using him to gain vengeance on Spike.
 

Antho

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I disagree. I think he has some residual resentment towards Buffy and uses Faith as a weapon against her. I'm not saying he doesn't like Faith, I think he does, but he's not above using her. He likes Giles, but he's not above using him to gain vengeance on Spike.
You could be right. But I don’t think I would say he used Faith to hurt Buffy. He did nothing special to manipulate people against Buffy. Everyone was against her after that Battle against Caleb. Buffy made people turn out against her by herself. Wood did nothing on that purpose. Neither did he put Faith in charge of the potential.
 

Priceless

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You could be right. But I don’t think I would say he used Faith to hurt Buffy. He did nothing special to manipulate people against Buffy. Everyone was against her after that Battle against Caleb. Buffy made people turn out against her by herself. Wood did nothing on that purpose. Neither did he put Faith in charge of the potential.
I'm just picturing him standing behind Faith and saying 'I think Faith has the floor' (or similar). That annoys me 😠
 
Antho
Antho
Okay 👌. Fair enough. To each their own Pricey :). I still need to respond to you on your post about « cool girl ». I will, when I will have more time.

TriBel

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See, I was prepared all along for the sudden reveal that Wood was actually a minion of the First Evil, infiltrating the gang, mainly because of how he seemed popped up at just the right moment with just the most perfect back story.
He's named as a homage to an important film theorist who was one of the first scholars to take Hitchcock seriously. As a result, ambivalence and suspense are structured in*. For the same reason, both @Antho and @Priceless are right in their conflicting readings. I neither like him nor dislike him but he's cleverly written.

*As are his "mummy issues". Wouldn't be Hitchcockian without mummy issues.
 
Antho
Antho
I like your analysis :)

DeadlyDuo

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I don't know if she was ever offered a crossover onto the final Season of "Angel," like James was, or if maybe there was a choice between the two, and James won out. I recall that she also did the voice over for her character in the Buffy video game.

I think Spike was always going to be the one brought over to Angel. I'm sure I read somewhere that Angel only got a Season 5 on the proviso that Spike was brought over, hence why the network heavily promoted his return even though it was supposed to be a surprise for the audience. Spike was basically the life support machine but it was Whedon pushing for an early renewal which ultimately caused the show to be cancelled.

Maybe it's my dislike of the character but I thought he was supportive of Faith so he could be the power behind the throne. It was also a way to punish Buffy for siding with Spike.

I kind of got that impression too. He thought Buffy was great until she sided with Spike, then he turned his attention to Faith and had sex with her in Buffy's bed.

You could be right. But I don’t think I would say he used Faith to hurt Buffy. He did nothing special to manipulate people against Buffy. Everyone was against her after that Battle against Caleb. Buffy made people turn out against her by herself. Wood did nothing on that purpose. Neither did he put Faith in charge of the potential.

I always thought Wood kind of set Buffy up with the vineyard. He wanted to make her look bad, as punishment for her siding with Spike, but didn't realise how bad it would go as a result. It's his actions during the mutiny that annoys me the most. He basically threw Buffy under the bus then acts as if he had nothing to do with it.
 

Antho

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I always thought Wood kind of set Buffy up with the vineyard. He wanted to make her look bad, as punishment for her siding with Spike, but didn't realise how bad it would go as a result. It's his actions during the mutiny that annoys me the most. He basically threw Buffy under the bus then acts as if he had nothing to do with it.
There is nothing canon that prove that Wood was responsible for the vineyard. I don’t think he is bad to the point of leaving potential getting hurt and Xander loose an eye, just for him getting some revenge on Buffy. I really don’t think he would side with the First. That doesn’t have sense. As for his actions during the mutiny, I would say he isn’t the worst and like everyone in that scene he is just despicable... but I blame the writers for that. And amongs all of the people, he certainly isn’t the one who should get the majority of blame.
 

DeadlyDuo

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There is nothing canon that prove that Wood was responsible for the vineyard. I don’t think he is bad to the point of leaving potential getting hurt and Xander loose an eye, just for him getting some revenge on Buffy. I really don’t think he would side with the First.

I don't think he would deliberately set up a situation where people get killed, however I think he did egg Buffy on whereas she was having second thoughts eg Buffy wasn't sure about taking the potentials to the vineyard because they hadn't been "tested" but Wood said she should take them and "test them". Buffy gets a lot of unfair hate for the vineyard from everyone, however she did put safeguards in place if things went wrong, the problem was that she underestimated Caleb's strength. You had three strong fighters in the mix (Buffy, Spike, Faith) so if one went down, the other two should've been able to continue. However, Caleb took out both Buffy and Spike very quickly, practically one after the other, so two of them are down which leaves the rest of the group exposed.

If Buffy had followed her instincts instead of listening to Wood, things might not have gone down as badly as they did.

And amongs all of the people, he certainly isn’t the one who should get the majority of blame.

Kennedy was certainly the ringleader but Wood joined in, acting like he had no part in Buffy's vineyard plan, even though it was his advice which convinced Buffy to take the potentials. It was Wood's support of Kennedy which fed Kennedy's ego, so whilst he shouldn't get the majority of blame, he should at least get some of it. Him and Kennedy were the main voices in the mutiny.
 

Btvs fan

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I have no problem with Faith and Wood as a couple, per se, but I do think that Wood was wasted in the role the way that it was written. If he had been presented properly, I would have, simply because (and I know I sound a lot like Giles here) I wanted so much more for her. See, I was prepared all along for the sudden reveal that Wood was actually a minion of the First Evil, infiltrating the gang, mainly because of how he seemed popped up at just the right moment with just the most perfect back story. He would have been absolutely fantastic in a role like that. (Just imaine Spike fanally discovering that Wood and Caleb were actually in cahoots, but not being able to convince anyone because they would think that he was just trying to get back at Wood because of the attempted staking) Unfortunately, Joss didn't consult with me on that one, so we just have to settle for the watered down character that we wound up with.

That makes sense. BTW Did they ever give a reason why he buried Jonathan in that creepy way or was that simply a bait and switch by the writers?
 

TriBel

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When Xander shows Buffy the blueprints in Lessons we have this exchange:

Xander goes into the dining room. Buffy follows. He lays out the plans for the high school.
XANDER Take a look.
DAWN Hey. Check out double-O Xander.
BUFFY Go. Talk with your mouth full.
XANDER I've got two crews working on this diabolical yet lucrative new campus. One here finishing the Science building. And one here, reinforcing the Gym. There are no pentagrams, no secret passageways. Everything's up to code and safe as houses.
BUFFY Nothing creepy? Strange? From beyond? DAWN (with her mouth full) Maybe you're just paranoid.
XANDER Well, there is one interesting detail. I managed to scare up the plan from the old high school. You remember the very center of Sunnydale's own hell mouth? Xander puts up new and old plans to the window so they can see through them.
BUFFY Under the library.
XANDER Right. So I lined up the plans, new and old. And right exactly where the library was, we now have...
BUFFY Principal's office.
DAWN So the principal's evil?
BUFFY Or in a boatload of danger.
XANDER Well the last two principals were eaten. Who would even apply for that job?
BUFFY Guess we'll see.

There's the Hitchcockian ambivalence - evil or in danger? The plans (old/new) are a repetition of the opening montage (Istanbul/England/America - Ancient World/Old World/New World) - there's a fractal, self-replicating logic to S7. Wood's not eaten but he is consumed (in the sense of obsessed) by something (Buffy's making breakfast at the time; they're in the kitchen and the dining room). The consumption metaphor is picked up later in Dawn's comment "To Serve Man is a cookbook". This episode of Twilight Zone is to do with cryptography and deciphering (Xander's "codes" above). When Buffy first encounters Spike he says "Duck". Buffy can't decode it - does it mean "a term of endearment", "a bird", or "get down"? According to the dictionary, it means all three. Its meaning is pinned down by the context in which it's used. That extract above encompasses everything that the season encompasses (hence fractal).

Wood & Faith together is never one thing - never totally good; never totally bad. It's both at the same time - how we define good/evil depends on context. The same goes for every other relationship/pairing/person in S7 because the underlying dynamic is relational and dialectical - rather than "either/or", it's "and/both"...non-binary...not 1/0 but 00(7).That (and its structural reliance on chaos theory) is why S7 is so messy, so difficult to decode, and why I think...so brilliant.😄
 
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Faded90

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Honestly for me it’s because I just can’t bear Wood and think Faith deserves someone a ‘little .... better’

he seems to get a large amount of screen time and by Empty Places seems to have a bizarrely large say in goings on when before Chosen he literally does sod all that actually helps. In fact he’s a hindrance more than anything. When there’s the inner circle meetings he seems to be there for some reason. He’s obviously living in Buffy’s house at this point and is one of the main drivers in getting her out when he’s barely been part of the team and even then he’s not done anything for them at all. He’s actually worked alongside The First in doing what it says. Literally the most useful thing he does all season is drive the bus

I do think he has an Oedipal interest in slayers. He was clearly making the eyes at Buffy and then practically pounced on Faith when she turned up then goes in a huff because Faith doesn’t give him a special job of his own when they go into the bringers lair. I hate the comics and don’tactually accept them as my headcannon but I was pleased they binned this relationship straight away

plus by heart beats for Fuffy so to quote Mean Girls ‘he doesn’t even go here’
 

Antho

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If Buffy had followed her instincts instead of listening to Wood, things might not have gone down as badly as they did.
Buffy takes her decisions by herself. I don’t think Wood’s opinions have an impact on her, especially after what he did the previous episode. That decisions was her’s.
I agree with you that Buffy gets a lot of unfair hate about the vineyard, still i don’t think anyone influences her.

Also about the mutiny, I want to say that if this happenned it isn’t because of what happened in the vineyard it was because Buffy wanted to go there again and they didn’t. She was going to take them there and to again fall in Caleb’s trap.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Also about the mutiny, I want to say that if this happenned it isn’t because of what happened in the vineyard it was because Buffy wanted to go there again and they didn’t. She was going to take them there and to again fall in Caleb’s trap.

The thing is though, Buffy was right. She did try and open the floor to suggestions on the best way to go about it to avoid a repeat, but no matter which way you slice it, Buffy was right about the vineyard and everyone else was wrong.
 

Antho

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The thing is though, Buffy was right. She did try and open the floor to suggestions on the best way to go about it to avoid a repeat, but no matter which way you slice it, Buffy was right about the vineyard and everyone else was wrong.
It depends on the questions and or you analyze the situation :

- Is Buffy right when she says there is something in the Vineyard ?
Yes. There is the scythe. She is right.

- Do the others have the right to say « no we don’t want to go there again » ?
Also yes. That’s their choices. And it was trap. Why everyone always forget that Caleb said something like « I think she is gonna bring them again » so he was definitely expecting Buffy to come with the potential. She was just gonna fall in Caleb’s trap, again !

- Were they right to throw her out of house ?
Obviously not !

It’s not 100% wrong and right on both parts.
 

Faded90

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The thing is though that they really did need to kill Caleb. He was clearly their biggest threat and they needed to go to the vineyard not just because something may be there but also because they need to get rid of Caleb. It sums up the others plan when they do their ‘rogues gallery’ and they dismiss Caleb as being untouchable rather than concoct a plan that may work against him. Buffy wants to go where the power is and the others literally want to do what’s easiest
Its what makes Buffy the leader and the rest not
 

Antho

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He was clearly their biggest threat and they needed to go to the vineyard not just because something may be there but also because they need to get rid of Caleb.
This argument doesn’t work at all. They also needed to get rid of Gloria in season 5 still they don’t throw themselves in a battle unprepared.

Its what makes Buffy the leader and the rest not
If you want my opinion a good leader need to know that to win a battle you shoudn’t Go in the territory of the ennemy ( except if there is factor like surprise, a larger « army » ...) especially when the ennemie in question is waiting for you to come and is prepared while you aren’t. I add that a leader is nothing without his army.
 

thrasherpix

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Yes. Buffy in earlier seasons always came up with plans WITH her friends, be it against Glory or the Mayor or even just making use of a rocket launcher...a rocket launcher she still had in season 7 as she almost used it on Wood but didn't even consider using it on Caleb as she did the Judge, not even after the first time she got her butt handed to her. That's why I'd have rejected her leadership in season 7 as well. But then no one was great in that season.
 

Faded90

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Yes. Buffy in earlier seasons always came up with plans WITH her friends, be it against Glory or the Mayor or even just making use of a rocket launcher...a rocket launcher she still had in season 7 as she almost used it on Wood but didn't even consider using it on Caleb as she did the Judge, not even after the first time she got her butt handed to her. That's why I'd have rejected her leadership in season 7 as well. But then no one was great in that season.
But she WAS trying to come up with a plan with them. She opened it up to the floor. Buffy has always came up with the initial plan which they build around. The characters were just written as if they’d never experienced this before, which was understandable for the potentials but not the scoobies
 
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