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Why do people try to retcon Buffy's love confession to Spike

AstridDante

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I know some scenes in Buffy are open to interpretation but when the show creator (Joss Whedon) and producer/writer (David Fury) say Buff was 'in love' with Spike in Season 7, why do ppl try to say she said it as a thank you or in a friends way. I would go with show's creator on this one :)
 

WillowFromBuffy

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In the battle between Barthes and Rowling over the ownership of fiction, I stand on the side of the former.
 

AstridDante

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What does this mean? I stand with the creators and writers of the show who wrote for the characters and know the characters motivations and their intent when they wrote the words and created the scenes. In this instance, even if there was some ambiguity, this was clarified on a number of occasions post the show by Joss and Fury that Buffy was in fact in love with Spike, thereby removing any ambiguity that might have been there immediately after show aired. If the shows creator was silent on the point, I would say fair enough, it is open for interpretation but he wasn't
 

WillowFromBuffy

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There are so many reasons. Authors contradict themselves, lie, change their mind, misremember and certain fans love to over-interpret everything they say.

A good piece of fiction contains multitudes and different people can approach it in different ways. A TV show with an instruction manual signed Joss Whedon and David Fury contains nothing.
 

Blaze

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At the end of the day the only thing we have to interpret is what is out on our screen. I hate when a writer has to clarify after the facts what they meant by a scene, that just insults the ability of the viewer to interpret the scene themselves. And to be clear I have no problem with ambiguity in media, but if you choose to be ambiguous you should let the viewers make up their own minds. What's the point of being ambiguous if you then go on to say "oh no your interpretation is wrong I meant it this way". It's always fun to hear an author's own cannon, but if they didn't make it actually cannon they can't critique viewers for having a different interpretation. That is also what makes fandom interesting, people may have different views of what was presented on the screen.
 

AstridDante

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That may be true in some works of fiction and anybody can interpret anything however they wish however in this instance, the author(s) have been quite clear on the intention behind the character when she spoke those words/love confession e ie it was meant in the romantic and she was 'in love with him when their hands clasped' and David Fury said she fell 'in love' with Spike in Season 7. I don't think it is a valid argument to say that the intention of the creator of a character /show means nothing. In fact, I would argue it means a lot
 

WillowFromBuffy

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David Fury has also said that Spike is "ultimately not good for Buffy" and "ultimately not a good guy", so obviously that is true and any attempt to challenge it is invalid.
 

Priceless

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I think the reason for the retcon is that people either don't like Spike or don't like Spike and Buffy in a relationship, or can just about stand Buffy in a relationship with Spike, but will not stand for her loving him, or they can just about bear Buffy loving him as long as he dies so they can't be together 🤣

'Death of the author' is a tough one, because it's great to get their perspective and it does carry weight, but sometimes what they say and what I see on the scene doesn't match. Now that could be because times have changed and we've all got a new perspective, or their sex, age, background, race, education, culture etc. is different to mine, so we are bringing different things to it. But I can't force myself to see something that isn't there, or vice versa.

Buffy asks Willow "why does everyone in this house think I'm still in love with Spike," and in Chosen she finally tells she loves him. That's good enough for me. If people see Buffy saying the words, and not meaning it, that's a valid view, but I see her saying the words and if feels real to me.
 

white avenger

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why do ppl try to say she said it as a thank you or in a friends way.
For the same reason that they refuse to acknowledge that the comics are canon, regardless of how many times that Joss has affirmed that they were. We all, to one degree or another, put our own interpretation on things like this in order to support our own interpretation of the story line. For the most part, but not always, it's those who see Angel as Buffy's one and only love simply cannot accept that Buffy could ever be in love with anyone else.

David Fury has also said that Spike is "ultimately not good for Buffy" and "ultimately not a good guy", so obviously that is true and any attempt to challenge it is invalid.
As opposed to the guy who murdered her Watcher's girlfriend, and tried to destroy the world, or the one who frequented vamp suck houses and quite likely framed one of her other boyfriends for being an international arms dealer, or the one who became inhabited with a hyena's spirit and tried to rape her, or maybe the one who used her once to gratify his own pleasure and then later compared her to a toilet seat?

Let's be honest here. Our sweet Buffy just has crappy luck in boyfriends. Spike is a veritable saint compared to some of his predecessors.
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
I'm not David Fury.
AstridDante
AstridDante
I agree a lot of time shipper bias effects interpretation of scenes this works both ways for Spuffy and Bangels but I just find some interpretations bizarre especially in light of what Joss and Fury have stated

Kratos

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Well, I do think it’s open to interpretation. I just don’t see Buffy and Spike as a couple on the show from the Spuffy scenes we got, though I have no problem with Buffy loving Spike.
 
AstridDante
AstridDante
You are right they weren’t a couple but she was starting to fall in love with him in S 7. She also still loved Angel

AstridDante

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The David Fury comments were in respect of pre soul Spike character prior to Season 7. He said that Buffy was in love with Spike by end of Season 7. Joss made it very clear that the Buffy/Spike relationship as depicted in season 7 was a confusing romantic relationship. Despite the fact he was not comfortable showing them being physical on screen after SR ( Joss still put in a ‘fade to black’ scene in Chosen which he deliberately left ambiguous and said making love was one of the possibilities, it was up to viewer to decide). He also said the scene/love declaration was romantic and added flaming hands as a comment on their complex relationship. Yet I have seen comments on here saying she loved Spike as a brother/friend or like Xander or said it out of pity. This is completely at odds with the commentary, what the creator of the character has said and their history through the show. I cannot comment on the comics as I have not read them.
 

Athene

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Buffy also said she loves Riley in a similar fashion but not many believe that.
 
AstridDante
AstridDante
I think she romantically loved/was in love with Riley, Angel and Spike at some point. I won’t attempt to quantify who she loved more

WillowFromBuffy

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The David Fury comments were in respect of pre soul Spike character prior to Season 7.
No, those were comments he gave after writing and directing "Lies My Parents Told Me."
 
AstridDante
AstridDante
Nonetheless I still think he was referring to his pre-soul actions and this does not effect his view
that Buffy was in love with Spike by end of S7 as is Joss’ view

Puppet

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Black Thorn
Buffy also said she loves Riley in a similar fashion but not many believe that.
Tbh, this is why I can more easily accept fans who read differently into Buffy's words to Spike in Chosen. Because if I didn't, it would make me a hypocrite. Buffy mentioned loving Riley twice in the show - neither was her saying 'I love you', but that's semantics - once to Angel in Sanctuary - I have someone in my life, that I love - and once in Into the Woods, where she indirectly says it to Riley himself, but I don't believe her. I believe she thinks it's true, at the time, but I think with enough hindsight, she'll realize differently.

So, yeah, a total hypocrite not to accept that others may think the same of her love for Spike in S7 :)
 
AstridDante
AstridDante
My own view is that she loved (romantically) all 3 Angel, Spike and Riley at some point.

WillowFromBuffy

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@AstridDante No, it is in reference to Spike-with-soul.

"All you can do really is, within the episode you write, justify it to yourself in the episode. I can't justify every element. There are episodes that sandwich mine which I had problems with. I'm always okay with Spike and where he's at within my episode because I feel like I justify it. The way I do that is, I've always been the proponent that Spike is⁠—whatever his sensitivity or other factors that he exhibits⁠—ultimately not good for Buffy. I think it comes across in “Lies” that he doesn't kill Wood but he would kill him. And the fact that Spike really works the guy over and takes the coat back and puts it on⁠—that is Wood's mother's coat and Spike is going to continue to wear it. Spike is ultimately not a good guy. Yes, there are a lot of elements to him that are good and I see them but to paint him anyway heroic I have a hard time with that to a point."

So, if anyone claims Spike is a good person or good for Buffy, then they are obviously wrong and should be ashamed of their opinion, because our Lord David Fury said so.
 
K
katmobile
I'm a heretic especially when it comes to David Fury's opinion on Spike. I like that dude and to an extent his writing but he don't do nuance well - a binary thinker.

TriBel

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our Lord David Fury said so.
Yeah...like I'm gonna question my own understanding based on the word of a man who got enthusiastic about stain removal. 🙄

And...seriously...Death of the Author shouldn't be read in isolation. It needs to be read in the context of Barthes other writings - particularly Pleasure of the Text.
 
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DeadlyDuo

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Spike also said to Buffy "No you don't, but thanks for saying it".

It would make sense for Buffy to have feelings for Spike and tell him the words he's so long wanted to hear as he is dying, and it's a great end to Spike's arc for him to acknowledge and accept that Buffy doesn't love him, especially given his obsession for her in Season 5 and 6 when he would've loved to hear her say those words.

However, I think the real stickler for most people is the AR. Over the course of the show, Buffy has been heralded as a feminist icon, eg the whole "she doesn't need a man to save her", "the Watcher's council represent the patriarchy trying to control Buffy but she refuses to be controlled" etc. Yet here is this so called feminist icon telling the man who tried to rape her that she loves him.
 

AstridDante

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Joss Whedon said Buffy did mean it and she was in love with him at this point. This is irrespective of Spike accepting that or not. Spike may not have felt worthy at that stage. Its kind of poetic
 
DeadlyDuo
DeadlyDuo
Joss Whedon says a lot of things, doesn't always make them true.
K
katmobile
Or he may not have believed it or he may have regarded it as irrelevant at that stage since he was going to die and she needed to live or it may have been his way of saying this has to happen - you need to live, I need to die.

WillowFromBuffy

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Yeah...like I'm gonna question my own understanding based on the word of a man who got enthusiastic about stain removal. 🙄
No, I am saying that your own understanding is valid, even if it seemingly conflicts with something David or Joss or whoever may have said.

I don't think Barthes has an opinion on Buffy's lovelife.
 
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