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Why do people try to retcon Buffy's love confession to Spike

WillowFromBuffy

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My personal take on that scene is that Buffy means in when she says it. Her feelings for Spike are complicated and contradictory, but in that moment, she loves him. It would be different if he survived, because then everything else would have to be considered, but in the moment of his sacrifice, she means what she says.

But for Spike, the price of the soul was losing the certainty of Buffy's love. When soulless, he never once doubted that Buffy loved him or couldn't be made to love him. The soul has introduced doubt into his mind. His reason for getting it was to win Buffy's love, but he has instead made himself unable to receive it.
 

katmobile

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Oh, for Christ's sake, really? I really have to go through this again?



Jesus.

I. DIDN'T. SAY. THAT. SPIKE. COULDN'T. BE. FORGIVEN. I. DIDN'T. SAY. ANYTHING. ABOUT. ANGEL.

I simply said that I personally cannot fathom someone falling in love with a person who emotionally and sexually abused them for a year and who violently sexually assaulted them when they tried to escape said abuse.

I have spoke many times about how I like Spike's redemption as long as it's separate from Buffy. I have spoken many times about how I feel that Spike finally gets it in Season 5 of AtS, and how his redemption on that show is earned. I have spoken many times about how I like Spike's friendship with Fred and how I think that it was good for Spike to have someone who only knew him with a soul. I have spoken many times about how I believe that Spike is different and changed and has a better character arc on AtS, because on that show, he begins to understand the true path to redemption. I have never said that Angel deserves forgiveness but Spike doesn't. So stop putting words in my mouth.

I will never like that Spike's "redemption" on BtVS is built on the back of Buffy's pain and trauma and I will never like that the show wrote Buffy to have romantic feelings for Spike after everything he put her through. But I have never said that Angel deserves forgiveness but Spike doesn't.
You seem ok with the idea she still loves Angel after what Angelus put her through. I get why but all the same.

Ok I hear you I don't agree with you but I understand where you're coming from. I've stated why I think the abuse was a two way street but I get why you don't see that and ultimately it's more important that you believe what keeps you healthy than try and damage yourself to fit what I consider to be the truth. Fictional characters being hated is only important if they're a minority. However I can't not see things how I do. I guess as long as you don't assume I'm sick then we can agree to disagree.
 
RachM
RachM
I have never and would never say or think that you are sick.

AstridDante

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There's a whole lot of interesting discussion on authorial intent/death of the author which I'm going going to skip right over to say:

Why do people retcon the'I Love You' in Chosen?

I think one reason it's because the love story that Buffy and Spike have over this season doesn't follow a structure that we're very familiar with.

We Consume a lot of stories where love and romance are presented as one and the same thing, so when we come across a love story which looks different to that, we're not as good at recognizing what the story is trying to tell us about the relationship

...and in my opinion, that's great!
It allows for greater nuance in the relationship and provides a framework for us to think about love-relationships in our own lives beyond those which are strictly romantic.

Also, because we aren't as familiar with the 'structure' stories like this, the way the story ends isn't as clearly defined as a more traditional romance story would be. Hence, this thread :)
Very insightful reply. I agree their relationship throughout the seasons has been anything but the traditional romance. You could argue it falls within some of the standard tropes of good girl falls for bad guy or bad guy changes for love of a woman but neither of these fully explains it. I think their relationship was constantly evolving. I think in Season 7 it was focusing on element that was missing from their relationship, what Buffy said was a prequisite to love...trust. It is no doubt to me that Season 7 was romantic complicated relationship. I like the mystery and complexity of their dynamic

My personal take on that scene is that Buffy means in when she says it. Her feelings for Spike are complicated and contradictory, but in that moment, she loves him. It would be different if he survived, because then everything else would have to be considered, but in the moment of his sacrifice, she means what she says.

But for Spike, the price of the soul was losing the certainty of Buffy's love. When soulless, he never once doubted that Buffy loved him or couldn't be made to love him. The soul has introduced doubt into his mind. His reason for getting it was to win Buffy's love, but he has instead made himself unable to receive it.
I disagree. Seeing Red yes that was AR and it cannot be excused. However Spike didn’t sexually and emotionally abuse Buffy for a year. She was using him sexually so she could feel in order to distract from her depression. Spike loved her so went along with the physical relationship . Although he clearly wanted more emotionally
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
I guess it was closer to two years, but I don't see what this has to do with my post.

RachM

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You seem ok with the idea she still loves Angel after what Angelus put her through. I get why but all the same.
Sigh. Buffy fell in love with Angel before he lost his soul. She didn't love the murderous vampire who tried to kill her and her friends, she loved the person he was before, the one who took her ice skating and gave her a claddagh ring for her birthday, who identified with her loneliness and isolation and who loved her and had her back. She never engaged in a relationship with Angelus. Additionally, had Buffy said to Angel in Season 3 that she couldn't forgive him and it was too hard to move past what he did, I would have been fine with that.

I would have been okay with Buffy falling for Spike if it had happened at the end of Season 4 or Season 5. At that point, he hadn't done anything to her that she couldn't have got past, especially because he hadn't done anything Angelus hadn't done. Stalked Buffy? Check. Snuck into Buffy's room at night? Check. Threatened Buffy's friends? Check. Tried to kill Buffy? Check. Tried to end the world? Check. But none of that truly victimized Buffy or stripped her off her agency (either Angelus or Spike). There's always a certain amount of darkness and twisty-ness that comes with having vampire love interests and as long as it's not victimizing the human, I'm okay with it. I could accept a Spuffy relationship pre-Season 6.

But in Season 6, Spike truly damages Buffy. He victimizes her. Her makes her feel ashamed and degraded and traumatized. She cries to Tara, begging her to tell that she's wrong. He touches her without her consent. He manipulates her fragile mental health. He tries to alienate her from her friends. And he sexually assaults her in the most brutal manner and then her trauma is ignored so he can evolve as a character. So that's why I can't condone, accept or like Spuffy post-Season 6 and why I truly hate Spuffy Season 7, because it sweeps all of that under the rug in favor of turning Spike into a "hero".

Fictional characters being hated is only important if they're a minority. However I can't not see things how I do. I guess as long as you don't assume I'm sick then we can agree to disagree.
I don't hate Spike and I don't know why you've decided that I do. I hate the over-adulation he gets in the fandom and I hate how his narrative takes over BtVS. I hate that his "redemption" on BtVS is built on Buffy's trauma. But I don't actually hate Spike. I love him as a villain, I genuinely like and enjoy his character on AtS and I even find Season 4 Chipped!Spike quite entertaining. You decided that I hate Spike and you decided not to like me and to come after me based on that assumption and, to be frank, that's pretty unfair.

Okay. I'm done. Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread again.
 

katmobile

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Sigh. Buffy fell in love with Angel before he lost his soul. She didn't love the murderous vampire who tried to kill her and her friends, she loved the person he was before, the one who took her ice skating and gave her a claddagh ring for her birthday, who identified with her loneliness and isolation and who loved her and had her back. She never engaged in a relationship with Angelus. Additionally, had Buffy said to Angel in Season 3 that she couldn't forgive him and it was too hard to move past what he did, I would have been fine with that.

I would have been okay with Buffy falling for Spike if it had happened at the end of Season 4 or Season 5. At that point, he hadn't done anything to her that she couldn't have got past, especially because he hadn't done anything Angelus hadn't done. Stalked Buffy? Check. Snuck into Buffy's room at night? Check. Threatened Buffy's friends? Check. Tried to kill Buffy? Check. Tried to end the world? Check. But none of that truly victimized Buffy or stripped her off her agency (either Angelus or Spike). There's always a certain amount of darkness and twisty-ness that comes with having vampire love interests and as long as it's not victimizing the human, I'm okay with it. I could accept a Spuffy relationship pre-Season 6.

But in Season 6, Spike truly damages Buffy. He victimizes her. Her makes her feel ashamed and degraded and traumatized. She cries to Tara, begging her to tell that she's wrong. He touches her without her consent. He manipulates her fragile mental health. He tries to alienate her from her friends. And he sexually assaults her in the most brutal manner and then her trauma is ignored so he can evolve as a character. So that's why I can't condone, accept or like Spuffy post-Season 6 and why I truly hate Spuffy Season 7, because it sweeps all of that under the rug in favor of turning Spike into a "hero".


I don't hate Spike and I don't know why you've decided that I do. I hate the over-adulation he gets in the fandom and I hate how his narrative takes over BtVS. I hate that his "redemption" on BtVS is built on Buffy's trauma. But I don't actually hate Spike. I love him as a villain, I genuinely like and enjoy his character on AtS and I even find Season 4 Chipped!Spike quite entertaining. You decided that I hate Spike and you decided not to like me and to come after me based on that assumption and, to be frank, that's pretty unfair.

Okay. I'm done. Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread again.
Sigh....I'm trying to be fair and I did say your mental health was more important than changing your mind which I know you're not gonna do anyway.

It's my issues I've been called nasty things in the past by Bangel extremists so I guess projection if you want to dislike me ....feel free I guess I've earned it and I live with it.
 

RachM

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Sigh....I'm trying to be fair and I did say your mental health was more important than changing your mind which I know you're not gonna do anyway.

It's my issues I've been called nasty things in the past by Bangel extremists so I guess projection if you want to dislike me ....feel free I guess I've earned it and I live with it.
Okay but I have never called you anything nasty. I don't dislike you but you do dislike me for things you've assumed about me. You can understand why I would be a bit upset about that and why it feels like you have some sort of personal vendetta against me?

Of course I'm not going to change my mind. Are you going to change yours? That's not the point here, at least IMO. I've explained why I see things the way I do, I've even shown that I would be open to a Spuffy relationship under different circumstances. I don't know why this is such a big deal to you or why you've singled me out, when I've never been nasty or cruel or mean to you and there are plenty of other people on these Boards who hold the same views as I do.
 

DeadlyDuo

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But in Season 6, Spike truly damages Buffy. He victimizes her. Her makes her feel ashamed and degraded and traumatized. She cries to Tara, begging her to tell that she's wrong.
I disagree. It is Buffy who CHOOSES to initiate a lot of the sexual contact especially early on in the "relationship". Gone is a prime example. Also Buffy's so desperate for Tara to tell her she's come back wrong because it gives her an excuse for what she's doing with Spike, it gives her "permission". When Tara says she didn't come back wrong, Buffy is upset because she has no excuse. She can't blame her actions on her resurrection, the reality is that she chooses to engage in sex with Spike of her own free will and she does it repeatedly.

In my mind, the Season 6 Spuffy relationship is the more accurate depiction of an addict storyline than the Willow one. Spike is Buffy's drug, she uses him to make herself feel better and she keeps going back to him when she feels down. She hides what she's doing from her friends and feels guilty for doing so, but she's also fearful of how they would react if they found out the truth (and justifiably so given how Xander reacted to Spike and Anya sleeping together). Buffy is initially in charge of how she uses Spike. She picks him up and drops him as and when she chooses. However, as time goes on Spike starts taking more control and infringing on other aspects of her life. He's there at her work, at her house, even when she's out with her friends.

The balcony scene is essentially Buffy shooting up in a dark corner. Spike never forces himself on Buffy (aside from the AR, which could be seen as her "kicking the habit" when she throws him off her). Buffy chooses to engage of her own free will. Buffy's frame of mind caused her to make bad choices but she chose to make those choices. Buffy has agency during Spuffy.
 
RachM
RachM
We definitely see this completely differently but that's okay and I'm going to disengage from this thread :)

katmobile

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Okay but I have never called you anything nasty. I don't dislike you but you do dislike me for things you've assumed about me. You can understand why I would be a bit upset about that and why it feels like you have some sort of personal vendetta against me?

Of course I'm not going to change my mind. Are you going to change yours? That's not the point here, at least IMO. I've explained why I see things the way I do, I've even shown that I would be open to a Spuffy relationship under different circumstances. I don't know why this is such a big deal to you or why you've singled me out, when I've never been nasty or cruel or mean to you and there are plenty of other people on these Boards who hold the same views as I do.
Plenty agree with me too. However can I say sorry and agree to disagree? I don't like letting an opinion I profoundly disagree with stand unchallenged but at the end of the day a fictional character ain't worth damaging a real life person over.
 

RachM

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I was always happy to agree to disagree and I know that plenty of people agree with you, but I don't single you out of all those people and come after you for a belief many others hold. But apology accepted, I'm done. Maybe it really would be best if you put me on Ignore? I seem to upset you just by posting in general and it would probably make your life easier.
 

katmobile

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I was always happy to agree to disagree and I know that plenty of people agree with you, but I don't single you out of all those people and come after you for a belief many others hold. But apology accepted, I'm done. Maybe it really would be best if you put me on Ignore? I seem to upset you just by posting in general and it would probably make your life easier.
I seem to wind you up too if you want to stick me on ignore I'll understand.
 
RachM
RachM
To be fair, I think most people would get "wound up" if someone is deliberately going after them based off an assumption.

AstridDante

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I disagree. It is Buffy who CHOOSES to initiate a lot of the sexual contact especially early on in the "relationship". Gone is a prime example. Also Buffy's so desperate for Tara to tell her she's come back wrong because it gives her an excuse for what she's doing with Spike, it gives her "permission". When Tara says she didn't come back wrong, Buffy is upset because she has no excuse. She can't blame her actions on her resurrection, the reality is that she chooses to engage in sex with Spike of her own free will and she does it repeatedly.

In my mind, the Season 6 Spuffy relationship is the more accurate depiction of an addict storyline than the Willow one. Spike is Buffy's drug, she uses him to make herself feel better and she keeps going back to him when she feels down. She hides what she's doing from her friends and feels guilty for doing so, but she's also fearful of how they would react if they found out the truth (and justifiably so given how Xander reacted to Spike and Anya sleeping together). Buffy is initially in charge of how she uses Spike. She picks him up and drops him as and when she chooses. However, as time goes on Spike starts taking more control and infringing on other aspects of her life. He's there at her work, at her house, even when she's out with her friends.

The balcony scene is essentially Buffy shooting up in a dark corner. Spike never forces himself on Buffy (aside from the AR, which could be seen as her "kicking the habit" when she throws him off her). Buffy chooses to engage of her own free will. Buffy's frame of mind caused her to make bad choices but she chose to make those choices. Buffy has agency during Spuffy.
Completed agree with ALL of this. Buffy started their sexual affair. She was clearly enjoying the physical aspect. Even when she ‘broke up’ with Spike she admitted she still wanted him but she knew it was wrong and she was using him to self medicate like a drug. She found it hard to break away but knew it had to be done for both of their well beings
 

AngelBuffy

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Do people try to retcon it? I don't think so that much.

I just think people say buffy loved spike but she loved another more.

I always hate to compare buffy to twilight but bella did sum things up well in Eclipse.

Edward = You love him (Jacob)

Bella = I love you more.


this is pretty much is the same with buffy, angel and spike, twilight's bella/edward/jacob is basically a superficial and shallow version of the buffy/angel/spike triangle or maybe a worthy comparison is X-Men's Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine that Joss Whedon will be famailar with as he is a big X-Men fan.

No matter how much Jean is attracted and possbily loves Wolverine, She will always love Cyclops more.
 
K
katmobile
I'm sorry I disagree it's just different. She meet Angel at an earlier stage and it had the uncompromising nature of first love but mostly first love don't last. Spike's is more complex but I think just as valid. Also quoting Twishite really?!

AngelBuffy

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katmobile -I'm sorry I disagree it's just different. She meet Angel at an earlier stage and it had the uncompromising nature of first love but mostly first love don't last. Spike's is more complex but I think just as valid. Also quoting Twishite really?!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------




Usually the superficial argument that spike was more complex is nonsense or that buffy was young is even more silly. for two reasons

1.
The Angel/Aneglus arc was more layered, surprising and complicated with the overall story telling of the show than buffy screwing spike because she was depressed. infact, buffy and spike were more of the cliche trope, as i said every teen show has a buffy and spike. not many teen shows has a buffy and angel. their love story was ground breaking and changed how people wrote romance.

2. Buffy being young was not really relevant since buffy was not growing up under young circumstances, Angel was no normal first love. please how many first love had to kill their boyfriends.


how many young girls had to bear the pain buffy went through with angel at 17? Unlike spike, angel was an internal truma for buffy, which made her feelings even more intense and genuinely complex.


buffy was a young girl who found herself in a complicated web after her first sexual experience where the weight of the world and her loved ones became at stake and all at the same time she was still in love with the suppose monster she had to kill and did kill and things were never the same again even after they got back together

For spike, it was more about good sex that was why she kept going to him. It was not love. There is nothing complex about that. it is just pleasure. Buffy making love to Angel complicated a lot of things, a truma she had to carry for a long time. I remember the first time she slept with riley, she quickly looked next to her bed the next morning to make sure riley was still there because of her experience with Angel and later Parker.

Also even if I can say buffy was young. Angel was her most mature boyfriend that helped her grow the most and step into adulthood. he was the only boyfriend who always brought up marriage, kids and a normal life. He could look at things objectivity when necessary unlike spike who always had an agenda..Angel broke up with her for mature realistic reasons like him not been able to have kids with her or give her a normal life.

spike was her most immature partner, who borderline abused her, made sex dolls of her, tried to blackmail her, distanced her from her loved ones and used sex as a weapon against her. Not to mention how petty spike always got and vengeful..when buffy broke up with angel in lover's walk, he deals with it , when buffy breaks up with spike, he screws anya immediately.

Riley may have felt emasculated by buffy but spike was so immature not to mention insecure unlike Angel who was always mature enough to respect buffy new love interests. Scott, Riley and even Spike.I think the reason angel maybe never got overly jealous to the point of trying to break up a buffy relationship was because he knew Buffy loved him the most.
he smiled and walked away so she can be with spike in season 7 and he did the same with Riley in season 4.

There was nothing really complex about spike. please stop confusing writers not having the balls to kill of a character that should have been killed off in season 3 and 4 also they had to make him superficially grey to keep him on the show to try and retell another epic slayer vampire love story as ''complex''. its not.
 
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spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
Except that screwing Anya wasn't Spike's plan. Anya & He was drunk. And Souled Spike was quite mature towards Buffy in First Date about Wood.
K
katmobile
No Angel didn't smile and walk away in season seven and if he did it's because of the implication he might get the cookies. She called him out his attitude equality his maturity to a twelve year old. Also see point above.

katmobile

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katmobile -I'm sorry I disagree it's just different. She meet Angel at an earlier stage and it had the uncompromising nature of first love but mostly first love don't last. Spike's is more complex but I think just as valid. Also quoting Twishite really?!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------




Usually the superficial argument that spike was more complex is nonsense or that buffy was young is even more silly. for two reasons

1.
The Angel/Aneglus arc was more layered, surprising and complicated with the overall story telling of the show than buffy screwing spike because she was depressed. infact, buffy and spike were more of the cliche trope, as i said every teen show has a buffy and spike. not many teen shows has a buffy and angel. their love story was ground breaking and changed how people wrote romance.

2. Buffy being young was not really relevant since buffy was not growing up under young circumstances, Angel was no normal first love. please how many first love had to kill their boyfriends.


how many young girls had to bear the pain buffy went through with angel at 17? Unlike spike, angel was an internal truma for buffy, which made her feelings even more intense and genuinely complex.


buffy was a young girl who found herself in a complicated web after her first sexual experience where the weight of the world and her loved ones became at stake and all at the same time she was still in love with the suppose monster she had to kill and did kill and things were never the same again even after they got back together

For spike, it was more about good sex that was why she kept going to him. It was not love. There is nothing complex about that. it is just pleasure. Buffy making love to Angel complicated a lot of things, a truma she had to carry for a long time. I remember the first time she slept with riley, she quickly looked next to her bed the next morning to make sure riley was still there because of her experience with Angel and later Parker.

Also even if I can say buffy was young. Angel was her most mature boyfriend that helped her grow the most and step into adulthood. he was the only boyfriend who always brought up marriage, kids and a normal life. He could look at things objectivity when necessary unlike spike who always had an agenda..Angel broke up with her for mature realistic reasons like him not been able to have kids with her or give her a normal life.

spike was her most immature partner, who borderline abused her, made sex dolls of her, tried to blackmail her, distanced her from her loved ones and used sex as a weapon against her. Not to mention how petty spike always got and vengeful..when buffy broke up with angel in lover's walk, he deals with it , when buffy breaks up with spike, he screws anya immediately.

Riley may have felt emasculated by buffy but spike was so immature not to mention insecure unlike Angel who was always mature enough to respect buffy new love interests. Scott, Riley and even Spike.I think the reason angel maybe never got overly jealous to the point of trying to break up a buffy relationship was because he knew Buffy loved him the most.
he smiled and walked away so she can be with spike in season 7 and he did the same with Riley in season 4.

There was nothing really complex about spike. please stop confusing writers not having the balls to kill of a character that should have been killed off in season 3 and 4 also they had to make him superficially grey to keep him on the show to try and retell another epic slayer vampire love story as ''complex''. its not.
He was also equally unaccepting of Riley saying 'do you sleep with this guy?' and 'I don't like him'. Admittedly Riley behaved like a dick too and didn't make a great impression but let's not kid ourselves here. If you dump someone you don't get to police who they date next unless they're really toxic.
 

AngelBuffy

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He was also equally unaccepting of Riley saying 'do you sleep with this guy?' and 'I don't like him'. Admittedly Riley behaved like a dick too and didn't make a great impression but let's not kid ourselves here. If you dump someone you don't get to police who they date next unless they're really toxic.
that was suppose to be a burn joke when angel asked buffy if she sleeps with this guy.
Angel let buffy move on. when he says riley, i dont like him , it was actually a compliment that buffy chose good and that was why she smiled and said thank you.

Now compare spike and riley, spike basically stands next to her house with riley and buffy in her bedroom being initiate, he was stalking her being intitmate with her boyfriend. then he outs riley as a vampire drink machine, which ultitmely led to the break up of buffy and riley, he did that not because he cared about buffy, he outed riley because of his own growing obsession with buffy and wanted riley out of the picture.
 

DeadlyDuo

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then he outs riley as a vampire drink machine, which ultitmely led to the break up of buffy and riley, he did that not because he cared about buffy, he outed riley because of his own growing obsession with buffy and wanted riley out of the picture.
Even if his actions were selfishly motivated, Spike actually did Buffy a favour there. Riley was displaying a lot of "red flag" behaviour (and even showed shades of it in Season 4 eg The Yoko Factor). After getting caught out, Riley tries to blame his actions on Buffy (he wanted to "even the score" because she "let" Dracula bite her despite the fact Buffy made it very clear it was against her will) When Buffy doesn't take the bait, Riley gives her an ultimatum which is basically "give me a reason to stay or it's your fault if I leave". Buffy missing the helicopter was a good thing because otherwise she would've "owed" Riley to make the relationship work even if she was unhappy because she would've cost him his chance to re-join the military. Even n The Yoko Factor, he immediately assumes Buffy cheated on him with Angel despite her giving him no reason to think that, then he tries to justify his jealous behaviour with "I'm so in love with you, I can't think straight". He becomes obsessed with wanting Buffy to need him and gets pissy when she doesn't. Note how in Out of My Mind, Buffy and Graham have been telling Riley all episode to get himself checked out by a doctor and he's refused. However, the moment Buffy tells him that she "needs" him to get better, he immediately agrees to see the doctor. I've listed other examples in the Is Briley Abusive? thread.
 

Bluebird

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Black Thorn
I don't really understand the question from the OP. It's not a retcon to percieve things differently when the situation is written purposely ambiguous. I don't much care about the love interests, but I respect fans interpretation either way without thinking some are nefariously retconning because of some bias.
If Joss wanted it to be explicit he would have, as much as Buffy and Angel was, but he didn't. I honestly think it works so much better the way it was presented. I mean shouldn't the question be why don't people blindly follow the opinions of Joss? It's his opinion, as actors have opinions too. Do people go after SMG for retconning too?
Like someone said above, if we just go by the word of almighty Joss, then may as well give up discussion as a concept as he's right and everyone else is wrong regardless of context or interpretation or personal perspectives and preferences.
 

katmobile

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that was suppose to be a burn joke when angel asked buffy if she sleeps with this guy.
Angel let buffy move on. when he says riley, i dont like him , it was actually a compliment that buffy chose good and that was why she smiled and said thank you.

Now compare spike and riley, spike basically stands next to her house with riley and buffy in her bedroom being initiate, he was stalking her being intitmate with her boyfriend. then he outs riley as a vampire drink machine, which ultitmely led to the break up of buffy and riley, he did that not because he cared about buffy, he outed riley because of his own growing obsession with buffy and wanted riley out of the picture.
You're not being fair comparing souled with unsouled. Souled Spike is fine with Buffy dating Wood and isn't petty about it.
 
S

SpikeRocks

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But in Season 6, Spike truly damages Buffy. He victimizes her. Her makes her feel ashamed and degraded and traumatized. She cries to Tara, begging her to tell that she's wrong. He touches her without her consent. He manipulates her fragile mental health. He tries to alienate her from her friends.
After their involvement is over, the AR absolutely damages Buffy, and the writers made her a victim there.....but I get the impression you're talking about during their involvement (?). I could go point by point, but instead I'll just say that overall this is a radical spin on S6 that undermines Buffy's story/journey. Spike is an "ingredient" that Buffy adds to her trauma-soup (their relationship is her coping mechanism)....and in some ways, he is a comfort and an escape for her (making the soup more tolerable).....and in other ways, he's a bad addition that exacerbates and prolongs the awful taste of the soup (idk why the **** I’m talking about soup, I’m sorry lol 😂).

her trauma is ignored so he can evolve as a character. So that's why I can't condone, accept or like Spuffy post-Season 6 and why I truly hate Spuffy Season 7, because it sweeps all of that under the rug in favor of turning Spike into a "hero".
Totally agree, but that's not so much a Spike/Spuffy thing, as it is a BTVS writing thing.....Both Spike and Angel's redemption stories are borne on the back of Buffy's pain and trauma. It's ****ed up. I don't like it, but it certainly isn't relegated to only Spuffy. S2 soulless Angel focused his every moment on victimizing Buffy in the cruelest emotional, psychological, and purely evil ways he could devise, with no pause of remorse. S3 Bangel is then all about sweeping away the trauma soulless Angel caused her/her family/her friends, and elevating Angel back to a "hero" standing through Buffy's (rather quick) acceptance of him. They even went so far as to restart their romantic relationship despite the events/trauma of their involvement the prior year, and despite the potential consequences it could once again have. Whereas Spike and Buffy in S7 didn't. Their "relationship" was platonic, albeit with romantic undertones. It was explored in the background, in a state of continual repair, support and rebuilding of trust, over the entire season. Overall, it was handled much better, much more healthily, and with more maturity than S3 Bangel IMO. I can see Spike/Buffy S7 co-dependence and reliance on each other, which can be criticized, as well as Buffy's complicated feelings for Spike that have an influence on her........but it doesn't remotely approach the Angel/Buffy co-dependence in S3, and how dangerously/recklessly teenage-Buffy is influenced and ruled-by her complicated feelings for Angel.
 
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