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Why do people try to retcon Buffy's love confession to Spike

burrunjor

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I think the waters are further mudded since you're dealing with multiple creators some of whom change their minds and retcon things in their own minds to suit their understanding - Fury mostly disliked Spike and I don't think fully understood him. I think Fury thinks in binary a tad - did he have much influence on Lost? Because I couldn't stand the so called 'hero' on that show - someone else who thought in binary.
Found this from TV Tropes article on depending on the writer where they mention instances of characters changing based on a writers whims.


  • Buffy and Spike's romance was a particularly bad case. The production staff have openly stated that there were harsh disagreements over whom to portray as the aggressor and whether it was genuine love. So everyone just wrote it their preferred way when their turn came around, with no thought as to whether it made any sense with what came before or would come afternote the result actually invoking Truth in Television: some Real Life passionate affairs simply do not make sense, and sometimes not even the lovers themselves can say who's pursuing who.



I have had some run ins with TV Tropes. They banned me for writing a truthful article about DW that contradicted their agenda, though ironically this very page I'm quoting uses one of my articles as a reference for DW LOL, but still I think there may be a small grain of truth in what they say about Buffy and Spike. Buffy saying "why does everyone still think I'm in love with Spike" in season 7 is a bad example as that makes it look like she already told him and it was known.

Overall though I think it holds together reasonably well to be honest. Most of the time I felt Spike was pursuing her until her breakdown, and then she was disgusted with herself, and then Spike gets a soul and eventually becomes a genuine hero and wins her heart. Even then though it's still him pursuing her throughout most of season 7.

Spike is kind of like a Vampire version of Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia pursuing the Waitress LOL. Both in real life would be seen as really creepy stalkers, but because of the odd sweet moment, like Spike protecting Dawn from Glory, Charlie's day dream, and because both are funny and likable and it's tv and not real, then they both have lots of people routing for them.



The Waitress and Buffy have that same scathing sarcastic look LOL. Obviously Spike though is more charismatic, but he's pretty much Charlie, mummy's boy, hopeless romantic loose canon. I guess that makes Buffy the Waitress (she was actually twice) Cordelia is Sweet Dee, the sarcastic, former high school bully, failed actress, Angelus is Dennis the manipulative bastard with no feeling, and Frank, well I don't think there's any character like him LOL.
 
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katmobile

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I think it's much more complicated than that with Buffy - especially in season six where she's a mess pyschologically but there are some factors in common.

I've never watched Sunny in Philly so idk about that but the You Tuber Curio said one guy's supposed to have borderline personality disorder (although Crazy Ex Girlfriend is a much better depiction of it apparently) and Spike does have some elements of it.
 
burrunjor
burrunjor
I won't derail this to a Always Sunny thread, but obviously I was just joking a bit as Spike and Buffy being a drama are a lot more complicated. You should watch Sunny it's hysterical.

Faded90

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I’ve always thought the biggest stumbling block isn’t ‘does she love him?’ But does she actually LIKE him. Like could she spend non slaying nights and non apocalypse times with him and just enjoy his company, this is where I have doubts. I despise Riley but I have no doubt she enjoyed spending time with him outside of demon fighting stuff

I think this is something the comics alluded to also
 

katmobile

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I’ve always thought the biggest stumbling block isn’t ‘does she love him?’ But does she actually LIKE him. Like could she spend non slaying nights and non apocalypse times with him and just enjoy his company, this is where I have doubts. I despise Riley but I have no doubt she enjoyed spending time with him outside of demon fighting stuff

I think this is something the comics alluded to also
I thought the comics more alluded to her not knowing what she wanted out of life and getting broody plus all of the problems she would have had with Angel too but that's just me.

I think however you read it they definitely have a lot affection and trust for each other - they're very physically affectionate for people who don't even like each other as in huggy. Also what does she really have in common with Riley or Angel - besides beating up demons.
 

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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I know some scenes in Buffy are open to interpretation but when the show creator (Joss Whedon) and producer/writer (David Fury) say Buff was 'in love' with Spike in Season 7, why do ppl try to say she said it as a thank you or in a friends way. I would go with show's creator on this one :)
Because some fans create a narrative to fit their desired outcome for the characters in question. So many fans hate Spike and Spuffy. So they just ignore certain parts of the script that don't fit with their interpretation. Not all fans do this of course. I can't stand Bangel but I don't go around saying that Buffy didn't love him when she so clearly did.

She said she loved him. I believe her. Period.

@white avenger care to weigh in on this one? ;)
 

white avenger

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She said she loved him. I believe her. Period.
This is simply a variant on the classic, "She said it. I believe it. That settles it " that is part of my banner, and I couldn't agree more.

@white avenger care to weigh in on this one?
I already did earlier in this thread, but I'll take another poke at it.

Buffy has a really depressing life style. A constant battle against an overwhelming enemy. A life expectancy of at best, 25 years, which might or might not be extended by a few years due to the advent of an army of new Slayers. Add to that, her love life, regardless of which boyfriend you choose as an example, really sux.

Frankly, none of her past boyfriends could in an way be seen as anything even vaguely resembling normal or an ideal choice.

With all that in mind, I honestly believe that, of all of Buffy's boyfriends, both past and in the foreseeable future (unless, of course, they somehow get Duncan Macleod into the Buffyverse) Spike is the best of her current bad choices.

That's why I stopped shipping Spuffy a couple of years ago, and now only ship Jandy.
 

Btvs fan

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Sigh. Buffy fell in love with Angel before he lost his soul. She didn't love the murderous vampire who tried to kill her and her friends, she loved the person he was before, the one who took her ice skating and gave her a claddagh ring for her birthday, who identified with her loneliness and isolation and who loved her and had her back. She never engaged in a relationship with Angelus. Additionally, had Buffy said to Angel in Season 3 that she couldn't forgive him and it was too hard to move past what he did, I would have been fine with that.

I would have been okay with Buffy falling for Spike if it had happened at the end of Season 4 or Season 5. At that point, he hadn't done anything to her that she couldn't have got past, especially because he hadn't done anything Angelus hadn't done. Stalked Buffy? Check. Snuck into Buffy's room at night? Check. Threatened Buffy's friends? Check. Tried to kill Buffy? Check. Tried to end the world? Check. But none of that truly victimized Buffy or stripped her off her agency (either Angelus or Spike). There's always a certain amount of darkness and twisty-ness that comes with having vampire love interests and as long as it's not victimizing the human, I'm okay with it. I could accept a Spuffy relationship pre-Season 6.

But in Season 6, Spike truly damages Buffy. He victimizes her. Her makes her feel ashamed and degraded and traumatized. She cries to Tara, begging her to tell that she's wrong. He touches her without her consent. He manipulates her fragile mental health. He tries to alienate her from her friends. And he sexually assaults her in the most brutal manner and then her trauma is ignored so he can evolve as a character. So that's why I can't condone, accept or like Spuffy post-Season 6 and why I truly hate Spuffy Season 7, because it sweeps all of that under the rug in favor of turning Spike into a "hero".


I don't hate Spike and I don't know why you've decided that I do. I hate the over-adulation he gets in the fandom and I hate how his narrative takes over BtVS. I hate that his "redemption" on BtVS is built on Buffy's trauma. But I don't actually hate Spike. I love him as a villain, I genuinely like and enjoy his character on AtS and I even find Season 4 Chipped!Spike quite entertaining. You decided that I hate Spike and you decided not to like me and to come after me based on that assumption and, to be frank, that's pretty unfair.

Okay. I'm done. Sorry to OP for hijacking the thread again.
Urghh your talking about Buffy loving a 27 year old guy who'd been stalking her from a Blacked out car when she was 15. Who dated her when she was 16 then slept with her on her 17th birthday and broke up with when she was 18. A person who Buffy also tried to murder a 17yr old girl for.
Thats pretty awful stuff. But because the actress is older than the character and Joss copped out because in his own words he didn't want to make Buffy a murderer, its given a pass. Reality is though it shouldn't be. If Angel started hitting on Dawn who was 15/16 at the time you'd be pretty grossed out.
 
Oromous
Oromous
Context matters. It's been a long time, but didn't Angel "stalk" Buffy because of Whistler's advice that she is the path to his redemption? It was more like he was protecting her, wasn't it? Kinda like a guardian ANGEL. It's literally in the name.

SpikeOrAngel

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I know some scenes in Buffy are open to interpretation but when the show creator (Joss Whedon) and producer/writer (David Fury) say Buff was 'in love' with Spike in Season 7, why do ppl try to say she said it as a thank you or in a friends way. I would go with show's creator on this one :)
Because Spike literally tells Buffy she doesn't love him before he sacrifices himself. He could have said a Han Solo "I know" in response, or "I love you, too". Instead he said what was in her heart. Her heart was with Angel, and Spike was OK with that.
 

AstridDante

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Because Spike literally tells Buffy she doesn't love him before he sacrifices himself. He could have said a Han Solo "I know" in response, or "I love you, too". Instead he said what was in her heart. Her heart was with Angel, and Spike was OK with that.
Spike doesn’t know how Buffy feels or what’s in her heart. He has been proven to be wrong many times in the past. He was convinced she loved him in Season 6 when she told him she didn’t. Buffy said she had feelings for him in Seeing Red but couldn’t love him a she couldn’t trust him. The trust came in Season 7. As for his response in my opinion that spoke more about him and his lack of confidence in himself since he got his soul. He couldn’t actually accept or believe in the love when actually came. No one is saying that she still didn’t love Angel but I think she was starting to fall in love with Spike towards the end of the show and if it had continued on tv, we would have seen more.
 

Btvs fan

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@Oromous No because Angel specifically says to Buffy that he loved her the first time he saw her while also confessing to her the he saw her when she turned.
Its one of those creepy things that writers knew was wrong and even mention but carry on with anyway because you know marketing.
 

Oromous

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@Oromous No because Angel specifically says to Buffy that he loved her the first time he saw her while also confessing to her the he saw her when she turned.
Its one of those creepy things that writers knew was wrong and even mention but carry on with anyway because you know marketing.
Yeah, I could see how that would be creepy. But like I said, it's a long time. lol Can't remember how many months it's been since I last saw season 1.

But on the other hand...

I don't really see any mention of love here. He specifically said 'friend.' Maybe it's a later episode, but it doesn't seem to be during "the first time he saw her."
 
B
Btvs fan
It was S3 Helpless

TriBel

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Because Spike literally tells Buffy she doesn't love him before he sacrifices himself. He could have said a Han Solo "I know" in response, or "I love you, too". Instead he said what was in her heart. Her heart was with Angel, and Spike was OK with that.
Hmmm...
ANGEL Aha! [said of Spike] Boyfriend!
BUFFY He's not. But...he is in my heart.

Doesn't that kinda unravel your argument? Or at least, send it down a rabbit hole? Why would Spike know what was "in her heart"?
 

CHK DeWilSon

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But is it really a retcon or just people's perception on how it was all played out on screen.

And yes given that JW has stated that Buffy meant was she said in saying the words, 'I love you', then yes we can take on board that she wasn't lying when she said it.

However it's all about interpretations and what the individual will see and understand in their thoughts and feelings. And saying I love you to someone doesn't always mean that it's the same connotation for every person you say those words to.

Like I understand and see that Buffy is saying in those words to Spike but they don't feel to me in the same meaning of what others think is what Buffy is saying because of the actions that had previously play out with the arrival of Angel, I just don't see Buffy as 'in love' with Spike.

Whatever their 'relationship' is in the last series and I don't doubt that it is something important to them both despite my absolute dislike of it, I don't think in Buffy's heart at the time she is totally in there in the real romantic and exclusive sense as her kissing and basking in Angel's presence shows to me that he's still there massively in her heart. And while it may be unrealistic that she still has a little possible hope that maybe one day they could still make it as a couple, I feel it is there for her.

And then when it comes down to it, I don't see Buffy as a girl that would cheat on someone she was with in a relationship and this is from the time where she was with Riley and there was still her conflicting and complicated feelings towards Angel still in her but she was very loyal to Riley in the sense of not getting close and personal with Angel once she was with Riley even though it could have happened anytime they met up if they had let their obvious feelings for one another get the better of them.

And then the big one for me was in how she was when they escape Sunnydale being destroyed and how she reacted in her thoughts of what they had gone through and losing Spike. She showed how proud she was for what he had done but there was no big heartbreak in her reaction about him dying and I honestly don't believe she would have been like that if it had been Dawn, Willow, Xander or even Giles if they had willing giving their lives to save the world. But again this is just MY perspective on what unfolded on screen.

And one more thing, it can be easy sometimes to fit something into your own narrative given feelings about certain characters or storylines that could be viewed as possible being bias even if it's played out a particular way on the show when it clearly states one thing but it is twisted into something else to serve the purpose of making a character's behaviour worse than they actually are....
 
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