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Why do some hate the Angel series???

Anyanka Bunny Slayer

Hail Hydra 💀
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Black Thorn
It seemed like the writers were saying, "That's not a good enough idea for Buffy, let's use it on Angel."
Especially for seasons 1, 3, and 4.

Big evil law firm - the premise might've worked as a one/recurring joke/theme, but got kind of old quick
What REALLY amused me was how they used the Sony Pictures Building for exterior shots of Wolfram and Hart.

I thought everyone knew that lawyers are bloodsucking, evil cretins?
 

katmobile

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Yeah I went years refusing to see Angel because I thought he was really boring. I ended up watching Faith’s angel episodes first starting with ‘Five by Five’ and ‘Sanctuary’ and it totally transformed my impression of Angel- from then on he was my hero and I watched all of Angel☺
I was about 13 so I realise now that’s it’s immature to refuse to watch a whole show because you find the main boring... you’ll never know until you try.
The great thing about ensemble shows is you don't have to love the lead. I hated Jack but managed to enjoy Lost. I originally loved Willow more than Buffy too.
 
Athene
Athene
That’s true there’s more than the lead to love

DeadlyDuo

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The great thing about ensemble shows is you don't have to love the lead.
The problem with that though is that love triangles involving the lead tend to occur with two supporting characters so that the lead remains the focus.
 

Heljar

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Angel seemed to take story lines that were too outrageous for Buffy as central arcs. The Jasmine arc never would have gone over on Buffy and many think it was the downfall of Season 4 on Angel so it really didn't go over on Angel all that well. The Pylea arc never would have gone over on Buffy. Lorne and Caritas never would have gone over on Buffy because it was an adult place, unlike The Bronze. Wolfram & Hart would never have gone over on Buffy although it was an interesting concept - a law firm that was run by the Senior Partners i.e. Satan himself, but it never could have been part of Buffy.

The characters were also a problem. Angel, the taciturn vampire with a soul, did not promise to be any more communicative than he was on Buffy and a series based on a character known for brooding sounded like an invitation to watch paint dry. Cordelia was never a favourite and Charisma Carpenter was never that great an actress, certainly not in the same league as Buffy. Wesley had been a buffoon on Buffy, a compendium of every negative stereotype of the British aristocrat but on Angel he suddenly becomes a demon-hunting badass. There is quite the jarring disconnect between how we see him in the two shows.

It seemed like the writers were saying, "That's not a good enough idea for Buffy, let's use it on Angel."
I think you're being too nice to Buffy. I think the whole Glory/Dawn story line was very out there and wasn't your regular demon baddie. The whole Trio storyline was kinda stupid. I'm rewatching the season now and I still don't know why they decided to get on Buffy's radar. If they wanted to take over Sunnydale they could easily have done that without Buffy interfering. They were tech-geeks. They could easily have robbed banks and whatnot without Buffy caring because it wasn't supernatural.
 

Btvs fan

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I think this is probably the main problem, people cared more about the Buffy characters than the Angel characters. It's quite telling that Buffy characters crossed over on Angel yet none of the Angel characters crossed over on Buffy. I do think Angel, whilst not a bad show, did rely a bit on the Buffy show as support rather than being completely independent. They brought Cordelia and Wesley across full time, then of course added Spike for the season after Buffy had finished because he was one of Buffy's most popular characters. Not forgetting Faith and Willow in guest roles, plus Oz.
They didn't bring Cordy over because she'd developed so much on Ats, it would've really shown up how immature the other characters acted in comparison imo. The only other option was a reset which is what happened with Angel when he crossed over and it was never a good look, him going back to Buffy S3 mode
 

vampmogs

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Well, I think AtS and BtVS are very different shows with very different sensibilities so I can understand why some BtVS fans would dislike it. I know my sister never really got into AtS because she thought it was much more serious then BtVS, that it was more farfetched in terms of the world it inhibited (Caritas etc), and she never warmed to the characters in the same way. Generally speaking, she's not into supernatural-type shows but BtVS appealed to her because of the comedy and the fact it was somewhat more grounded in the "real world" with high school/college storylines etc. She was able to love BtVS in spite of it's supernatural elements whereas AtS is far more engrossed in that.

I personally enjoy both series but I can understand people's issues with AtS. It's terribly inconsistent and whilst it has some amazing highs it also has some real lows that BtVS never really sunk to ("She" etc). Objectively I think that AtS certainly ended on a much stronger note (Season 5 >> Season 7 by a comfortable margin) but Season 3 and 4 was a very messy time that bogged the series down. I also think that AtS really struggled with behind the scenes setbacks that routinely got in the way of the story (Darla leaving prematurely in Season 2 is the biggest example IMO) and that it didn't really know what it wanted to be from season to season. When it was able to nail what it was about ("Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been") it was magnificent but it was derailed pretty often.

The one thing that I do dislike about AtS is the preachiness. It tends to take itself far more seriously than BtVS and has a penchant for going on long-winded speeches about heroes and redemption etc. Occasionally these speeches are great but it can often come across as humourless and pompous. I also loathed the whole "Champion" nonsense and never warmed to the PTB mythology either. I wished they'd avoided a lot of that and I generally preferred the tone of BtVS far more.
 

Btvs fan

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Well, I think AtS and BtVS are very different shows with very different sensibilities so I can understand why some BtVS fans would dislike it. I know my sister never really got into AtS because she thought it was much more serious then BtVS, that it was more farfetched in terms of the world it inhibited (Caritas etc), and she never warmed to the characters in the same way. Generally speaking, she's not into supernatural-type shows but BtVS appealed to her because of the comedy and the fact it was somewhat more grounded in the "real world" with high school/college storylines etc. She was able to love BtVS in spite of it's supernatural elements whereas AtS is far more engrossed in that.

I personally enjoy both series but I can understand people's issues with AtS. It's terribly inconsistent and whilst it has some amazing highs it also has some real lows that BtVS never really sunk to ("She" etc). Objectively I think that AtS certainly ended on a much stronger note (Season 5 >> Season 7 by a comfortable margin) but Season 3 and 4 was a very messy time that bogged the series down. I also think that AtS really struggled with behind the scenes setbacks that routinely got in the way of the story (Darla leaving prematurely in Season 2 is the biggest example IMO) and that it didn't really know what it wanted to be from season to season. When it was able to nail what it was about ("Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been") it was magnificent but it was derailed pretty often.

The one thing that I do dislike about AtS is the preachiness. It tends to take itself far more seriously than BtVS and has a penchant for going on long-winded speeches about heroes and redemption etc. Occasionally these speeches are great but it can often come across as humourless and pompous. I also loathed the whole "Champion" nonsense and never warmed to the PTB mythology either. I wished they'd avoided a lot of that and I generally preferred the tone of BtVS far more.
I'm not sure Darla leaving was the issue as Tim Minear says he wanted Angel to stake after sleeping with her in Reprise (with a rather creepy line but that's btb) so it's not like they planned on having her around anyway.
I think Lindsey leaving was a bigger problem because if this Lilah was kept around for reasons.. and was so 1 dimensional and pointless until her relationship with Wesley and even then that wasn't central to the story.

I agree with you that Angel is inconsistent with great highs and equally great lows.
The first half of S1 is meh but the second half is far better and the first half of S2 is the best run of either show for me but then the second half with Pylea is a big meh for me. For S3 I love the Darla and Dark Wesley episodes but the rest I can l leave. For S4 is weird hodgepodge with good and bad bits depending on the episode and S5 the first half is a bit meh but the second half is the strongest since S2
 
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kalike123

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It wasn't Buffy. And like every other show that's ever aired, it wasn't as good as Buffy. But more than any other show, it gets compared to Buffy and suffers for that. So there's that.

Can't think of a character I've hated more than (non-baby) Conner. It's not the actor. He did a fine (pretty excellent, actually) job, considering. It's the character & all the situations surrounding him. HATE.

There really should be a "Reasons We Hate Conner" thread.

Jasmine sucked pretty badly, too. Again, not the actress. She was fine. The story was okay (minus the Cordelia/Conner business), it just dragged on a little too long. The Cordelia/Conner stuff...give me a break! Ugh!

Cordy should've been there. Putting her in a coma was ridiculous. "You're Welcome" was great, but still.

Gun's whole purpose once Fred showed up was to be Fred's boyfriend...and then he kind of had no purpose. He was a great character and there was loads to explore there. But nothing.

Instead, we got Coma Cordy, Jasmine and stupid Conner.

I watched the whole thing, so it's not like I hated the show, but Egads, it did suck now and again.
 

RachM

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It wasn't Buffy. And like every other show that's ever aired, it wasn't as good as Buffy.
I know this sort of thing can be subjective but there are plenty of shows that have aired that are just as good as (sometimes better than) BtVS, and IMO AtS is one of them. I think people do unfavorably compare AtS to BtVS but the two shows are so different in tone and themes that I think such comparisons aren't always fair/relevant.
I watched the whole thing, so it's not like I hated the show, but Egads, it did suck now and again.
So did BtVS.
 

Btvs fan

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I know this sort of thing can be subjective but there are plenty of shows that have aired that are just as good as (sometimes better than) BtVS, and IMO AtS is one of them. I think people do unfavorably compare AtS to BtVS but the two shows are so different in tone and themes that I think such comparisons aren't always fair/relevant.

So did BtVS.
Agree with this 100%
To say Buffy is better than say Chernobyl or Breaking Bad/Deadwood/Sopranos/the Shield or the Wire is absurd. I'm on Mad Men at the moment and that's fantastic and I find better than Buffy.

Even back in the day there were issues. I remember during Buffy S5 David Hines gave up because the show would raise an issue but not address it when they did.

Also S7 I found a failure on multiple levels.Look Buffy was fun show but to call it the greatest ever seems a bit mistaken imo
 
RachM
RachM
Mad Men is amazing!
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Black Thorn
Agree with this 100%
To say Buffy is better than say Chernobyl or Breaking Bad/Deadwood/Sopranos/the Shield or the Wire is absurd. I'm on Mad Men at the moment and that's fantastic and I find better than Buffy.
Yeah Buffy isn’t my favourite show either, but I would definitely the best of its kind of show. Teen Dramas are usually awful, or at least don’t stand the rest of time but Buffy is still praised now. Breaking Bad is amazing but my brain struggles to compare them properly because of the different genres lol.

I also think it comes down to what you prefer, not what is objectively better. Lost is my favourite TV show of all time and not many people would agree, it just has themes that appeal to me more. I understand that there are shows that are ‘better’ but it doesn’t make me like Lost any less. I hope you can understand what I’m trying to get at. I’m not a big fan of realism in shows so I wouldn’t personally rank Breaking Bad higher than Buffy, please say you know what I mean because I feel like I’m just waffling right now.
 
RachM
RachM
Ahhh, I love LOST! Def one of my favourite shows of all time.

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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... and whilst it has some amazing highs it also has some real lows that BtVS never really sunk to ("She" etc).
I dunno, are we forgetting Bad Eggs, Beauty & The Beasts, Doomed etc.

Both shows have some spectacularly low points and both shows have some fantastic highs. Saying that AtS sunk further than BtVS is, IMO, just not true. I mean, let's not forget how badly BtVS fell apart in its final two seasons.
 
B
Btvs fan
I think Wrecked and As You Were/End of Days and Chosen are all pretty terrible imo
Taake
Taake
Take that back! Bad Eggs is amazing!
NeddaSai
NeddaSai
I shudder every time I remember Doublemeat Palace..

kalike123

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I know this sort of thing can be subjective but there are plenty of shows that have aired that are just as good as (sometimes better than) BtVS, and IMO AtS is one of them. I think people do unfavorably compare AtS to BtVS but the two shows are so different in tone and themes that I think such comparisons aren't always fair/relevant.

So did BtVS.
Of course it's subjective. I do not preface every comment with, "This following is my opinion..." because I assume everyone is smart enough to know that.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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Of course it's subjective. I do not preface every comment with, "This following is my opinion..." because I assume everyone is smart enough to know that.
Guess I'm just dumb then :confused:

I said the subjective thing so that my opinion wouldn't be taken as fact and also to make it clear that I wasn't necessarily saying that your opinion is wrong. But thank you for your snarky reply and dig at my intelligence.
 
Bluebird
Bluebird
The snarky responses to people's intelligence are becoming more common round here. Has put me right off posting cos I'm a dummy aswell.
Kratos
Kratos
Same.

Btvs fan

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Yeah Buffy isn’t my favourite show either, but I would definitely the best of its kind of show. Teen Dramas are usually awful, or at least don’t stand the rest of time but Buffy is still praised now. Breaking Bad is amazing but my brain struggles to compare them properly because of the different genres lol.

I also think it comes down to what you prefer, not what is objectively better. Lost is my favourite TV show of all time and not many people would agree, it just has themes that appeal to me more. I understand that there are shows that are ‘better’ but it doesn’t make me like Lost any less. I hope you can understand what I’m trying to get at. I’m not a big fan of realism in shows so I wouldn’t personally rank Breaking Bad higher than Buffy, please say you know what I mean because I feel like I’m just waffling right now.
Yes and no, its attitudes towards both race and sex are dated and very much a writing room of rich white guys imo while Joss Whedon quips is a bit of cliche now but otherwise yes the show holds up well enough.

For Lost a series of JJ Abrams mystery box is a bit of a turn off for me.
 
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Black Thorn
Yes and no, its attitudes towards both race and sex are dated and very much a writing room of rich white guys imo while Joss Whedon quips is a bit of cliche now but otherwise yes the show holds up well enough.
I’m not blind to Buffy’s faults but as far as plot and characters go, Buffy is peak for teen dramas for me. I’m a teenager and a fairly new fan (in terms of a lot on here), it wasn’t as dated as I thought it was going to be. The lack of diversity in the cast is an issue and I honestly didn’t recognise that it had any issues with sex since joining this forum. Although diversity among other things are important, it’s not usually that that makes something good.
 

Taake

Raise your hand if... EW
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Black Thorn
Of course it's subjective. I do not preface every comment with, "This following is my opinion..." because I assume everyone is smart enough to know that.
There is no need to insult other members. You could’ve politely stated that you didn’t think it was necessary to clarify that it was your subjective opinion, rather than being flippant about responses. You can do better. This is a discussion board, people will discuss the opinions you post.
 

katmobile

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Of course it's subjective. I do not preface every comment with, "This following is my opinion..." because I assume everyone is smart enough to know that.
Idk ..... There are some pretty opinionated folks who seem to regard their opinions as gospel truth....are they on here? You might think that I couldn't possibly comment.
 

thrasherpix

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Angel and Buffy aren't that bad for writing relating to gender, race, and sex. There's room for improvement, but I've seen much worse even today...and I won't mention the name of the movie I saw twice a few months ago, just say I liked it despite its flaws, but all it's racial diversity was actually cringe-worthy just because of how...absurdly stereotypical it got, and seeming to want to address racial issues in our society in a very tone deaf way (I have much bigger complaints than that about it, but still loved it and thinking of buying it). Even Joss Whedon does better than that, including in Buffy and Angel. Still liked it. And still a fan of Buffy and Angel.

I do want diversity simply because there are too many people out there who are inspired by it, some of them finding the will to escape poverty because of that inspiration, and it does help some feel more able to insert themselves into a story and enjoy it, and that means there are more people I can geek out over it with. But that's meta, and it's the story that counts, not the demographics.

I keep hoping for someone to make an ElfQuest miniseries, animated or CGI, but I suppose the main characters (*) race mixing with race-mixed children--at least that's how it would be perceived by too many--is still a bit too daring, and even wannabe progressives would try to twist it into something racist just as genuine racists would also hate it. Because it's cool to hate on media, it makes you look all smart and edgy (at least you think it does), it gets you the Likes and thumbs up, and the clickbait articles to inflame all that will naturally happen. Not that the race mixing was what made it good or even what it was about. It was just an awesome story that happened to have it.

(* Main characters can't get away with as much as side characters. In the first time I participated with the Buffy fandom online in the mid-2000s, some were outraged over Buffy having a one night stand with Satsu, not because it felt contrived, but because this was the Jossverse where a straight character can turn instantly gay, but once they do they can't turn straight again, nor is bisexuality an option. Therefore, one night stand with a female meant Buffy was now a lesbian, or that's how it felt. And many who were okay with Willow being gay were NOT okay with Buffy being gay, because she's the lead. This was stated bluntly and had supporters. It's too much like if the Lone Ranger was the sidekick to Tonto rather than the other way around. Side characters can get away with more as long as they remember they're to uphold the main character who is going to conform pretty close to the norms and standards, that is the target audience, no mater how much of a "rebel" s/he might be.)



I went to multiple schools in Texas and none of them had a gothic library with a cage like that, and both Buffy and Cordelia would've got sent home a lot if they came to any school I went to (season 1 came out just before I went to high school myself). About the only episode that made me think of the high school I went to was Go Fish (jock bullying and privilege and the community's bizarre worship of school sports, among other things, which was much worse at the high school I went to) and yet most people hate that episode (though I find the juvenile humor of the writers a bit annoying myself, but I'm not going to hate on it just because it didn't preach hard enough how this was wrong, wrong, wrong--it had enough funny moments like Willow interrogating Jonathan that I still like it), but oddly that element doesn't seem to show up again. On top of that I personally never went to any school dance like prom or homecoming, and yet I love the Buffy eps involving those. Heck, I didn't even graduate (I left in my second year and never went back, getting a GED instead). It doesn't mean I'm unable to relate to the characters despite that they're so different from me and having a different background.

Back when I was a kid I spent some time on the streets as a runaway, which inclined me to media involving runaways. Out of all the fiction I saw, only ONE made me think the author actually knew what she was talking about, that is either she'd been there, or she'd gotten to know kids on the street. And yet...I got bored half way through and can only vaguely remember the ending, despite liking and really relating to the character in the scifi story. I much prefer the "that's not realistic at all" portrayal of runaways and life on the streets in Buffy and Angel, I guess for the same reason as I love the don't-bet-on-it high school. It's about the characters and just a fun story.

One could even bring that up with weapons. If they were realistic, many would hate it and it would confuse most viewers. Tropes and cliches exist for a reason, for better and worse.

But I do miss being a teenager back when all the tropes and cliches were still new to me rather than all too predictable. I enjoyed shows and movies much more back then.
 

Kratos

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I know this sort of thing can be subjective but there are plenty of shows that have aired that are just as good as (sometimes better than) BtVS, and IMO AtS is one of them. I think people do unfavorably compare AtS to BtVS but the two shows are so different in tone and themes that I think such comparisons aren't always fair/relevant.
Agreed. I started watching The Fugitive (the tv series with David Janssen) a few years ago and it quickly surpassed both Buffy and Angel to became my favourite show, though they’re still in my top 3. That might change in time, though, as you’ve only seen a few eps here and there of the ‘big’ shows such as The Sopranos so I can’t pass judgment on them at the moment.
 
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