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Why do you think Cangel is forced?

BaskingINBangel

"Peanut butter, preferably crunchy!"
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There is a third solution that he will never experience true happiness because he's aware of the consequences. For him that shadow is always going to be there when he experienced it before it wasn't.
I know a lot of people subscribe to this theory, but I don't. Once again it's something that doesn't work in my brain. Going with this theory, for me, would invalidate one of the main reasons that Angel actually leaves Buffy in the first place. It also invalidates IWRY. If there is no longer a threat of him losing his soul, then there really is no reason for them not to continue being together after IWRY. Or even getting together later on down the road.

It's just not believable to me that one can control the amount of happiness that the person they are deeply in love with might cause them to feel, regardless of past experiences. Therefore, if I'm to believe that Angel was deeply in love with Cordy, then the threat of him losing his soul is still very much there for me.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

Potential
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For me my problem with CAngel is that I never really saw any potential between them before it became text - and then it was done so clunkily as to render the whole thing pointless.
For example I like Spuffy - except that I hate their s6 relationship and I can't support it at all. I like the potential of what they were - I don't like where the writers went with it.
My main ship is Cordy/ Doyle - and that's pretty much all potential because it's over before it begins - but the fact that they both had feelings is made explicit. And it is very sweet.
But Angel and Cordy, I don't see them as anything but friends. And they don't see themselves as anything but friends. There is no potential. But then Fred pronounces Kyrumption and that's enough to make Angel start acting twitchy! But then of course Darla show up pregnant and it's all put on the back burner. Cordelia, who knows herself and is more sure of herself more than anybody else on the planet, is completely clueless as to how Angel feels about her, is rendered completely unaffected by the spell in Waiting in the Wings and has to be told by the Groosalug - of all people - that she loves Angel. She doesn't even believe that until she has a vision of herself saying it. She literally sits staring at a photo and commenting how she doesn't feel anything. And then of course they miss their window and nothing ever comes of it. Even if it was a terrible story line so far, they could have gone on to have a cute relationship that I could understand people shipping - but they didn't. There's just nothing followed by more nothing.

I get that other people will see more potential in their relationship in earlier seasons - read situations differently than the way I read them. So I don't think it's strange that there are people who might ship the potential of CAngel. But what we actually get is so badly written and goes no where and adds nothing other than a bit of extra melodrama that I find it difficult to understand why people like what we get.

As for all the reasons they can't be together that are linked to the Bangel stuff - I do completely agree, and I agree that Cordelia would not actually be happy playing second fiddle to Buffy, but I can accept them ignoring it in the story (I mean Cordy only knows CAngel is happening for two minutes before she becomes a higher power - she didn't exactly have time to think through all the ramifications) because people often act against their actual best interests, or selfishly or thoughtlessly - especially when they are reaching for something they want. Especially if they have been lonely and the thing they are reaching for is companionship. I wouldn't mind if they didn't tackle it during the build up, if their ignoring these facts ultimately ended in the disaster that was clearly waiting. That would have made for a good story.

But what we get does seem to be the writers ignoring the problems rather than the characters. And that's no good.
 

Bluebird

two by two, hands of blue
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Messages
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Black Thorn
I can't add much more of a reason than what people have already mentioned. I really valued their platonic relationship. They're not similar people but they grew to have a lovely appreciation and respect for each other, but then they ruined it by remembering she has a vagina and he has a penis, so they must interlock because...

To me it is as bad as Connor and Cordelia, because Angel and Cordelia have the same family vibes. All the accusations that get thrown at Conner and Cordelia can be applied to Cangel in my view. I've always felt that - maybe that's why Connor and Cordelia never bothered me too much, it was more of the same weirdness. I won't mention the "i" word this time but it felt that way to me. Now I just see that as a failure in the writing to so quickly change their dynamic, for whatever reason, but I get why people would want to see it if they enjoyed their interactions over the years. I guess sometimes it just doesn't work out in reality, like when you realise you have no sexual or romantic chemistry ie Wes and Cordy.

Poor Cordelia is a bit of a foil for romance.
 

vampmogs

Townie
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I think the biggest mistake they made with Cangel is that they kind of abandoned everything fans loved about the Angel/Cordy friendship when they decided to rewrite them as love interests. I think that's why it feels so forced because the characters, and their dynamic, was written incredibly different in the latter half of Season 3. People adored the Angel/Cordy friendship because they thought Cordy and her no-nonsense, tell it like it is style of communicating with Angel was really good for him. She was snarky, sometimes downright rude, and really critical of him, but there was also a lot of love there. However, when she falls for Angel she becomes this weird cheerleader who condones everything he does, does nothing but praise him and inflate his ego, gives him some really immoral advice ("kill Holtz"), and pretty much abandons all her other friendships for him in comparison to the way she stood up for Wesley against Angel in Season 2 ("If you fire Wesley then I go to!").

Had they kept their dynamic consistent but slowly turned them into love interests it could have potentially worked. Instead, they basically tried to turn it into Bangel-lite. They go extremely overboard with this nauseous "We are Special Champions and worthy of one another" nonsense, Cordy undergoes a major personality transplant upon her return from Mexico, of course she goes blonde, and they even planned to do their own version of Buffy Season 2 with Cordy going evil in Angel Season 4 and Angel having to sacrifice her to save the world.

It's my least favourite major ship in the 'verse (with the exception of Willow/Kennedy if you want to call it a major ship) and I think it was really poorly written. The writers broke the golden rule of 'show don't tell' and literally had Fred declare to us out of the blue in "Offspring" that they were perfect together and then - boom - Angel was in love.

But, honestly, the writing around Cordy's whole character got seriously weird in Season 3. They kept having characters tell us incessantly how heroic and wonderful she was now ("Kyrumption!"/Lorne babbling on to Angel about how she's an "Old School Champion"/the super Cordy birthday cake etc.) which was really off-putting. I mean, she definitely was heroic, but it was bizarre how they tried to shove it down our throats so much. And then they literally had her glow and ascend to heaven and ... blah. It's such a mess.
 
NeddaSai
NeddaSai
Agree with them downgrading the Cordelia/Wesley friendship to prop up Cangel.. that really sucked for me.

WillowFromBuffy

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What I don't get about Cangel fans is ... aren't you bitter that there was all this build up, but that the relationship never actually took place?

What part of their relationship do you actually enjoy? Is it the Angel is to afraid to speak to Cordelia phase or Cordelia and Groo phase or the Cordelia is in heaven phase or the Cordelia has amnesia phase or the Cordelia is evil phase or the Cordelia is in a coma phase or the Cordelia is dead but nobody cares phase?
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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What part of their relationship do you actually enjoy? Is it the Angel is to afraid to speak to Cordelia phase or Cordelia and Groo phase or the Cordelia is in heaven phase or the Cordelia has amnesia phase or the Cordelia is evil phase or the Cordelia is in a coma phase or the Cordelia is dead but nobody cares phase?
All of this!
what do people actually like about it? I started a thread once in an attempt to discover which part was the good part. I never got a clear answer. I think I even listed all the scene specific stuff I like about Buffy and Spike, and all the scene specific stuff I hate about them in order to try and get a break down of where the good Cangel is. At best I got one person listing early season Angel scenes that were a massive reach for them showing an interest in each other (or a complete and utter misinterpretation of the scene) and then more 'I like that they were friends first.' Which is ... right - but then there is no 'next'. So what about the romantic relationship do you like?
 

sharlto

irons her jeans
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30
At best I got one person listing early season Angel scenes that were a massive reach for them showing an interest in each other (or a complete and utter misinterpretation of the scene)
To be fair to them, it's hardly going to be such a massive reach for anyone that actually likes the pairing. Unless there's been Absolute And Official Word Of God With Sources on the scene in question, I'd say everyone's perfectly within their right to interpret it in their own way.

What I don't get about Cangel fans is ... aren't you bitter that there was all this build up, but that the relationship never actually took place?
So what about the romantic relationship do you like?
Isn't half the endless emotional toil fun of any Buffyverse ship wishing the writers liked a certain sub-section of the fandom? :')
 

WillowFromBuffy

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Isn't half the endless emotional toil fun of any Buffyverse ship wishing the writers liked a certain sub-section of the fandom? :')
No. All my ships have great content, and I am generally very happy with what the writers did with them.
 

Cangel1987

♥ Cangel ♥ Spuffy ♥
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Personally, I started to like them as more than just friends in the first season. And every other season would be more and more.

First, I enjoyed their development from strangers to friends, and then they both fell in love. And yes, it frustrates me that the two never really got together.

I can say the same thing about the topic that nobody seems to remember her in season 5. That`s with a reason, why I can´t enjoy season 5 even with Spike. And the fact that they mourn Fred more than Cordelia. Don`t get me wrong I like Fred but in the same time it makes me upset.

Maybe that's why I protect her like that. But this is just my view.
 

AngelsCordy

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The first visible emotions could already be seen in season two. Just before Cordelia was sucked into Pylea. Then in one episode, Cordelia was not yet a blonde. When Angel described her as the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. That does not include Buffy and Darla, or?

No offense, I like the two too, but then you should observe everything correctly. And not only what seems important to you.

What I find ridiculous is to treat Cordelia/Angel as equivalent with Cordelia and Jasmine and Connor. There is a huge difference.
 
sharlto
sharlto
I don't think Cordelia going blonde was even That Deep; a short pixie cut looks nothing like Buffy or Darla's. It really seemed like Charisma just changed her hair...

sharlto

irons her jeans
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No. All my ships have great content, and I am generally very happy with what the writers did with them.
Alright. What's your point, then? I don't actually even like S3, but say I did: am I not going to answer your question with more or less the same thing?
 

WillowFromBuffy

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Alright. What's your point, then? I don't actually even like S3, but say I did: am I not going to answer your question with more or less the same thing?
I was just answering your question. I don't think half the fun of any Buffyverse ship is wishing the writers liked a certain sub-section of the fandom.
 

Myheadsgonenumb

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Then in one episode, Cordelia was not yet a blonde. When Angel described her as the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. That does not include Buffy and Darla, or?
That's in Waiting in the Wings - when he's already 'in love' with her. Waiting in the Wings is probably the best actual (let's be honest - only) CAngel we ever get. But it must be an incredibly frustrating if this is your ship because the end of the episode sees the return of Groo.
 

AngelsCordy

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Is not every ship a bit frustrating at a certain point? Not only Cordelia and Angel, but others too?
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
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Is not every ship a bit frustrating at a certain point? Not only Cordelia and Angel, but others too?
I think it's a bit general to say every ship is frustrating. From my experience, the ships which seem to frustrate fans the most are the ones which are either clumsily written (such as Cangel) or are missed opportunities (like Fuffy). Well-written ships with actors who have good chemistry seem to be well-received with little frustration on the part of the shippers.
 

katmobile

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I think it's a bit general to say every ship is frustrating. From my experience, the ships which seem to frustrate fans the most are the ones which are either clumsily written (such as Cangel) or are missed opportunities (like Fuffy). Well-written ships with actors who have good chemistry seem to be well-received with little frustration on the part of the shippers.
That's not entirely true Rachel and it's also entirely subjective.
 

Taake

Prophet of the Lord
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That's not entirely true Rachel and it's also entirely subjective.
This doesn't contribute much to the discussion, it's essentially like saying "well, that's your opinion", which is kind of the point of a discussion forum. We're all giving our opinions and discussing them. RachM did say "from my experience", which is an opening for others to share their perspective from their own experience.

To bring it into a discussion format - what about it do you think is untrue and entirely subjective? And if you give your opinion, won't that be entirely subjective as well?
 

katmobile

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I guess and I suppose it's more it irks me more the examples attached than the principles. I don't agree with the examples and also I know Rachel hates something I love that colours things. I do think Joss doesn't let any ship sail smoothly though.

Why isn't Cangel forced and what do I like about it. I like that she challenges him especially telling him not to lie to Connor with Bangel I feel they have each other on pedestals and that's not healthy ultimately. Angel does great things but he does questionable ones when no one is his Marge Simpson telling him that something isn't a good idea or he's not listening. I think Angel ultimately likes that quality in Cordy and it's good for him.
 

AngelsCordy

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To put it in Buffy's words, What was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you? - And even tell Angel, that Spike was her boyfriend...it`s nothing about Cangel or Bangel - is that just okay? that she rubs again something in Angels Face - but Angel wasnt allowed to do the same to her. And Cordelia would never have been a second fiddle.
 
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