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Question Why does Buffy sleeps with Spike *only* after his chip stops working?

DeadlyDuo

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and led Spike to understand to some extent that he was missing something that she needed, forcing him to change.
I've always found Spike getting a soul problematic and this is the reason why. Spike shouldn't be changing just to make Buffy happy. I dislike Spuffy intensely, (it's a toss up between Spuffy and Killow for worst relationship on the show), however it's not necessarily the idea of the ship itself that's the issue but the writing that surrounds it, from the retcon of the Sprusilla breakup to the writers making Spike Buffy's lapdog and then the whole giving him a soul and isn't it romantic! (no it's not, it raises many troubling issues).

I always say, he was not only convenient for sex, but she could also be at her worst around him & not care what he thinks or how he feels because he'd always let her come back. I see Buffy's feelings toward Spike as that of a stress release toy.
Sums up an abusive relationship in a nutshell and proves that Buffy had an EQUAL hand in the mess that Spuffy became. Spike isn't without fault but it seems like Buffy's part in Spuffy is always overlooked and the blame solely laid at Spike's door.
 
BuffyLover88
BuffyLover88
I only agree with the second part of your argument.

DayDreamer27

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Sums up an abusive relationship in a nutshell and proves that Buffy had an EQUAL hand in the mess that Spuffy became. Spike isn't without fault but it seems like Buffy's part in Spuffy is always overlooked and the blame solely laid at Spike's door.
I think that's because Spike is still evil, and he manipulates an PTSD Buffy. Buffy isn't in the right head space, and shows signs of severe depression & trauma at her relationship.

When she hits Spike, it seems to annoy him at best. Other times, he takes it as a sign of love "always hurt the one you love." Then his comments that trust has nothing to do with love, it's wild, passionate, and dangerous. It even comes up before Joyce dies. She asks if Buffy did anything to lead Spike on & Buffy says no. She punches & kicks him a lot but that's second base for him.

  • We don't see Spike sitting in the dark wanting to keep Buffy away.
  • We don't see him pulling out his hair because of Buffy.
  • We never see him on his knees sobbing to someone about a sick relationship he's in.
  • Buffy never forced him to watch friends / comrades while she sodomizes him with a strap-on in public.
  • We don't see Buffy wrestle Spike to the ground while he's in tears & yelling for her to stop.

So I can understand why Buffy's "abuse" isn't counted as much given Spike never acts like an abuse victim. He thinks what he & Buffy had is completely normal & hot, which real love should be. He's a demon, where what's abuse to humans would be foreplay for them. He even mentions tying up Dru and torturing her until she likes him again.

Meanwhile, Buffy was human and Spike's behavior toward her is something that is measured by human standard. All the signs of a trauma or abuse victim were shown on Buffy's end. Meanwhile Spike came off like a thirsty guy who settled for a f. buddy relationship while wanting more. & being annoyed he wasn't getting it.
 

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
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I've always found Spike getting a soul problematic and this is the reason why. Spike shouldn't be changing just to make Buffy happy. I dislike Spuffy intensely, (it's a toss up between Spuffy and Killow for worst relationship on the show), however it's not necessarily the idea of the ship itself that's the issue but the writing that surrounds it, from the retcon of the Sprusilla breakup to the writers making Spike Buffy's lapdog and then the whole giving him a soul and isn't it romantic! (no it's not, it raises many troubling issues).
I know how you feel about this, but ultimately, it was Spike decision, not Buffy’s request. Having a soul didn't mean that she’d resume their relationship, he knew it, but as he said to Riley:

Riley: You actually think you've got a shot with her?
Spike: No, I don't. Fella's gotta try, though. Gotta do what he can.

Spike’s views of love are extremely passionate and raw, he loses himself into the woman he loves. If it weren’t Buffy, he’d probably do something equivalent for the next woman with whom he falls head over heels for. Maybe he could even try to get Drusilla back and use torture to make her love him, is that better than getting a soul? It could always backfire, and Drusilla could dust him instead.

Ultimately, his journey of redemption led him to be a better man and he died happy in Chosen. He had atoned for his sins and he got to feel the effulgent side of having a soul, no more torment for his past actions, but real happiness for his sacrifice.

Moreover, how could we know that continuing being soulless would have made him happier? We simply don’t. He had a chip in his head preventing him from harming people. He wasn’t a vampire and he wasn’t a man. He was trapped within himself.

Besides, regardless of who is the object of his obsession, he has never been the one in charge because he’s love bitch and he takes it as it comes. He'd always be somebody's lapdog (using your working). Didn’t he suffered when Drusilla was screwing around with Angelous? Or when she was sleeping around with random demons? And yet, he stayed by her side and desperately wanted her to stop doing this and wanted her back all for himself.

At least with Buffy he was able to experience the best night of his life and started building a real connection with a woman that he truly loved and admired and who reciprocated his feelings by the end of the show, that’s something that some people would kill for (a moment of happiness even if it is only one night):

SPIKE. Last night was... God, I'm such a jerk. I can't do this.
BUFFY. Spike...
SPIKE. It was the best night of my life. If you poke fun at me, you bloody well better use that, 'cause I couldn't bear it. It may not mean that much to you, but—
BUFFY. I just told you it did.
SPIKE. Yeah...I hear you say it, but... I've lived for soddin' ever, Buffy. I've done everything. Done things with you I can't spell, but... I've never... been close... to anyone. Least of all, you. 'Til last night. All I did was... hold you, watch you sleep. And it was the best night of my life. So, yeah... I'm... terrified.
BUFFY. You don't have to be.
SPIKE. Were you there with me?
BUFFY. I was.

So yes, the path that led him (them) to this point was tortuous, but I don’t see it necessarily worse than the time he spent mopping around because Drusilla left him or because she was cheating on him. He finally fully experienced love for the first time in his life (yes, the selfless kind) and he happily sacrificed himself becoming a champion (a title that clearly meant something very important for him as he implied when Buffy gave him the amulet).
 
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DeadlyDuo

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I think that's because Spike is still evil, and he manipulates an PTSD Buffy. Buffy isn't in the right head space, and shows signs of severe depression & trauma at her relationship.
Whilst that might inform Buffy's choices, she still makes those choices of her own free will. It explains but it doesn't excuse. Also Buffy does give mixed messages to Spike. In intervention she's ready to kill him on the off chance he might give Dawn up to Glory, yet she kisses him on the lips (which is an intimate kiss) when she finds out he hasn't.

In Season 6, she kisses him (again on the lips) in both OMWF and Tabula Rasa (this time it's a snog) yet then she's telling him to leave her alone. She's the one who initiates the sex in Smashed and Gone. When Spike starts to be the one that initiates things, that's when Buffy starts to feel things spiralling out of control because he's less secretive about it. She was groping Spike in front of Xander when she was invisible because Xander couldn't see her, yet she's more reluctant when there is a possibility of being caught such as the balcony scene.

There is very much a sexual repression vibe around Buffy during Season 6. She enjoys the sex with Spike, hence why she repeatedly seeks him out, yet she only feels the shame of her actions when she is around the scoobies.

I know how you feel about this, but ultimately, it was Spike decision, not Buffy’s request.
The problem is though that, with Angel, the soul was presented as a punishment for a vampire, the worst that could be in inflicted on Angelus hence why the gypsies did it. Ergo a soul is a bad thing for a vampire. Angel made the best out of a situation he had no control over but he SUFFERED. Now the writers want us to see Spike getting a soul as this big romantic gesture, despite it driving him temporarily insane. It's self-harm at best, suicide at worst (depending on whether or not you consider Souled Spike a different person from unsouled Spike) yet ultimately Spike is rewarded for this action because he gets Buffy who now has emotional affection for him.

Moreover, how could we know that continuing being soulless would have made him happier? We simply don’t. He had a chip in his head preventing him from harming people. He wasn’t a vampire and he wasn’t a man. He was trapped within himself.
Yet this angle was never explored because Spike's storyline became solely about Spuffy, and thus everything was done through that lens. Spike ceased to be a character in his own right. It would've been great to see Spike try and find his place in the world but we never got that, because it became all about being "acceptable" to Buffy.

Didn’t he suffered when Drusilla was screwing around with Angelous?
There are underlying issues with the Dru/Angelus dynamic which, whilst not outright stated, were suggested by the reactions of characters eg:

Dru is still sleeping with a paraplegic Spike despite Angelus being on the scene. There is no benefit for Dru to sleep with Spike in terms of power, he's not top dog any more so sleeping with him would not improve her position within the group of vampires working for Angelus. Therefore Dru chooses to sleep with Spike despite his fallen position.

Angelus clearly wields the power within the group (the vampire walked out in broad daylight to give Buffy a message at Angelus' behest despite resulting in death) so it's expected that the dominant vampire rules the roost (we see this in other vampire groups on the show eg Sunday). Angelus is the one more interested in sleeping with Drusilla (just to assert his position of power over Spike) rather than the other way around, he's the one separating Sprusilla either physically (such as pulling Dru away from Spike in Innocence) or saying no when Dru invites Spike along on the hunting trip at the end of IOHEFY. Dru is actually undermining Angelus' authority by sleeping with a vampire in a lower position instead of giving him "exclusive" access.

It's possible Angelus trained Dru to act that way towards him once he sired her as an extra humiliation to her once "chaste and pure" human self.

Spike does not blame Dru at all for what she does with Angelus yet is quick to call her out on the chaos demon which suggests he isn't blind to her transgressions.

Or when she was sleeping around with random demons? And yet, he stayed by her side and desperately wanted her to stop doing this and wanted her back.
Dru "making out on a park bench with a chaos demon" (which the FFL flashback couldn't even get the details right on apart from "Brazil") was her reaction to Spike's supposed betrayal of her trust. Spike wants to prove her wrong. (Also originally Lovers Walk was meant to feature both Spike and Dru in the middle of a Lovers tiff but JL was unavailable so Spike ended coming back alone). The language Spike uses to describe his explanation to Dru about his actions reads like she caught him "cheating" on her eg "I told her I was thinking of her the whole time" therefore Dru is punishing Spike by cheating on him. They're vampires so there'll always be a degree of wackadoodle in their relationship eg their version of going out for dinner is killing a homeless guy together on a park bench.

At least with Buffy he was able to experience the best night of his life and started building a real connection with a woman that he truly loved and admired and who reciprocated his feelings by the end of the show, that’s something that some people would kill for (a moment of happiness even if it is only one night):

SPIKE. Last night was... God, I'm such a jerk. I can't do this.
BUFFY. Spike...
SPIKE. It was the best night of my life. If you poke fun at me, you bloody well better use that, 'cause I couldn't bear it. It may not mean that much to you, but—
BUFFY. I just told you it did.
SPIKE. Yeah...I hear you say it, but... I've lived for soddin' ever, Buffy. I've done everything. Done things with you I can't spell, but... I've never... been close... to anyone. Least of all, you. 'Til last night. All I did was... hold you, watch you sleep. And it was the best night of my life. So, yeah... I'm... terrified.
BUFFY. You don't have to be.
SPIKE. Were you there with me?
BUFFY. I was.

So yes, the path that led him (them) to this point was tortuous, but I don’t see it necessarily worse than the time he spent mopping around because Drusilla left him. He finally fully felt love for the first time in his life (yes, the selfless kind) and he happily sacrificed himself becoming a champion.
I'm going to be brutally honest about that scene so please don't be offended, but I find it to be the biggest load of bollocks on the show. Much like the Sprusilla break up retcon, it's all about the writers pushing Spuffy and going "look how great Spuffy is! Isn't Spuffy the best! Spuffy is so wonderful!".

Spike was with Dru for over a century, their breakup (the Lovers Walk one which I consider the true canon one, rather than the Spuffy retcon in FFL) was about a perceived betrayal of trust committed by Spike in his truce with Buffy. Dru's reaction isn't great but it's an issue between them that Spike decides to try and resolve at the end of Lovers Walk. That century long relationship is suddenly being pushed aside and trivialised by the writers in an effort to push Spuffy eg retconning the break up to be about Spuffy, having the above scene where Spike waxes lyrical about how great being with Buffy is, etc.

It's very telling when a ship has to try and take out another ship in order to fly rather than standing on its own two feet. Spuffy tries to do this to both Bangel and Sprusilla and it's also very telling that Spuffy isn't universally accepted by fans unlike Tillow, Woz, Xanya, Xandelia etc. There's a reason ship wars happen, and it isn't just about which character ends up with whom. It's about how it happens, and IMO Spuffy was forced by the writers rather than being an organic development and was detrimental to the show in the long run. Once Upon a Time suffered the same fate with CaptainSwan (and blatantly ripped off the Bangel Becoming scene).
 

r2dh2

Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain
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Messages
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The problem is though that, with Angel, the soul was presented as a punishment for a vampire, the worst that could be in inflicted on Angelus hence why the gypsies did it. Ergo a soul is a bad thing for a vampire. Angel made the best out of a situation he had no control over but he SUFFERED. Now the writers want us to see Spike getting a soul as this big romantic gesture, despite it driving him temporarily insane. It's self-harm at best, suicide at worst (depending on whether or not you consider Souled Spike a different person from unsouled Spike) yet ultimately Spike is rewarded for this action because he gets Buffy who now has emotional affection for him.
Spike wasn’t oblivious to the cost and consequences of getting a soul. He knew that Angel was cursed, therefore by logical conclusion a soul wasn’t “all about moonbeams and pennywhistles.” He did, however, underestimate the initial turmoil that it would generate (“Angel should have warned him”). But most definitely he didn’t go seeking fluffy bunnies by enduring torture during the trials. He knew (more or less) the price he’d have to pay. Still, he went along. His decision.

Yet this angle was never explored because Spike's storyline became solely about Spuffy, and thus everything was done through that lens. Spike ceased to be a character in his own right. It would've been great to see Spike try and find his place in the world but we never got that, because it became all about being "acceptable" to Buffy.
Well, there’s no point to discuss this. I can give you a grim scenario and you can paint a happier one. Ultimately all we know is that the chip did disable Spike in a huge way. It’s not a stretch to speculate that finding a way of removing the chip wouldn’t be easy (he had been doing it for a long time) and we also know that the chip could have eventually killed him. But that’s about it.

There are underlying issues with the Dru/Angelus dynamic which, whilst not outright stated, were suggested by the reactions of characters eg:

Dru is still sleeping with a paraplegic Spike despite Angelus being on the scene. There is no benefit for Dru to sleep with Spike in terms of power, he's not top dog any more so sleeping with him would not improve her position within the group of vampires working for Angelus. Therefore Dru chooses to sleep with Spike despite his fallen position.

Angelus clearly wields the power within the group (the vampire walked out in broad daylight to give Buffy a message at Angelus' behest despite resulting in death) so it's expected that the dominant vampire rules the roost (we see this in other vampire groups on the show eg Sunday). Angelus is the one more interested in sleeping with Drusilla (just to assert his position of power over Spike) rather than the other way around, he's the one separating Sprusilla either physically (such as pulling Dru away from Spike in Innocence) or saying no when Dru invites Spike along on the hunting trip at the end of IOHEFY. Dru is actually undermining Angelus' authority by sleeping with a vampire in a lower position instead of giving him "exclusive" access.

It's possible Angelus trained Dru to act that way towards him once he sired her as an extra humiliation to her once "chaste and pure" human self.

Spike does not blame Dru at all for what she does with Angelus yet is quick to call her out on the chaos demon which suggests he isn't blind to her transgressions.

Dru "making out on a park bench with a chaos demon" (which the FFL flashback couldn't even get the details right on apart from "Brazil") was her reaction to Spike's supposed betrayal of her trust. Spike wants to prove her wrong. (Also originally Lovers Walk was meant to feature both Spike and Dru in the middle of a Lovers tiff but JL was unavailable so Spike ended coming back alone). The language Spike uses to describe his explanation to Dru about his actions reads like she caught him "cheating" on her eg "I told her I was thinking of her the whole time" therefore Dru is punishing Spike by cheating on him. They're vampires so there'll always be a degree of wackadoodle in their relationship eg their version of going out for dinner is killing a homeless guy together on a park bench.
Sure, whatever reason she had for doing it is fine. My point is only that Spike spent a lot of time mopping around and feeling miserable because of Dru’s behavior. With Buffy he finally found a better kind of love, rooted in trust, respect and admiration, after a period of adjustment (getting his soul, learning to live with the guilt and shame of the past and getting de-triggered, etc.). People have different tastes, I personally prefer the second type of love. (And by the way, sometimes very long relationships end for the best).

I'm going to be brutally honest about that scene so please don't be offended, but I find it to be the biggest load of bollocks on the show. Much like the Sprusilla break up retcon, it's all about the writers pushing Spuffy and going "look how great Spuffy is! Isn't Spuffy the best! Spuffy is so wonderful!".
Certainly, it’s your prerogative to have a different opinion and explore potential scenarios that could have been better for Spike in theory. But given the scenario that we are presented with, I completely buy the scene.

We have an individual that never knew romantic love when he was alive and who only knew soulless love when he was a vampire (duh), so for the first time in his life/death, he emotionally connects with someone and experiences the joy of connection, something that most of us look for in our lives. Buffy finally fully trusted and respected him, the Ensoulled!Vampire who is a man between William and Soulless!Spike. Is this a long-term love that will have a "happy ever after" ending? Who knows, people and circumstances change, but he’ll always know that he experienced real intimacy for the first time in his life.

And I’m not gonna discuss what the writers did or didn’t do, because I’d need a lot of time to catch up with you in terms of knowledge.
 
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Stephan

It's a great show. But no need to get all riled up
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Spike wasn’t oblivious to the cost and consequences of getting a soul. He knew that Angel was cursed, therefore by logical conclusion a soul wasn’t “all about moonbeams and pennywhistles.” He did, however, underestimate the initial turmoil that it would generate (“Angel should have warned him”). But most definitely he didn’t go seeking fluffy bunnies by enduring torture during the trials. He knew (more or less) the price he’d have to pay. Still, he went along. His decision.
Moonbeams, pennywhistles and fluffy bunnies 🤣. He should have gone looking for those and spare himself all the torture 🤣.
 

DeadlyDuo

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@r2dh2 I don't think we'll agree on this point because our view points are complete opposites in regards to Spuffy and Spike getting a soul, and that's okay. (Sprusilla is still the better ship though :p)
 
r2dh2
r2dh2
Haha, ok, and Kennedy is the most amazing potential :-P (well, not really, but I needed to throw you something back).
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Spike’s views of love are extremely passionate and raw, he loses himself into the woman he loves. If it weren’t Buffy, he’d probably do something equivalent for the next woman with whom he falls head over heels for. Maybe he could even try to get Drusilla back and use torture to make her love him, is that better than getting a soul? It could always backfire, and Drusilla could dust him instead.

Besides, regardless of who is the object of his obsession, he has never been the one in charge because he’s love bitch and he takes it as it comes. He'd always be somebody's lapdog (using your working). Didn’t he suffered when Drusilla was screwing around with Angelous? Or when she was sleeping around with random demons? And yet, he stayed by her side and desperately wanted her to stop doing this and wanted her back all for himself.
I agree with this so much! It's fine, that's how he is. But I think that it's unfair to say that this behavior surfaced only when he fell in love with Buffy.
 
KatrinaL
KatrinaL
Yup.

BuffyLover88

Townie
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May 24, 2019
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Could it simply be that once the chip stops working she can have sex with Spike without holding back? We know that their brief relationship was very passional.
 
Annie Hall
Annie Hall
Nice theory.
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