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Why so much hate on Angel?

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
Hey all!

I wanted to discuss Angel with you because before the BB I though everyone loved Angel like me and well that's really not the case. I was curious to know why people felt so strongly against him because to me and from the show's perspective he is a hero, flawed but still a hero.

So here are my questions?

If you hate Angel why is that?
If you love Angel why do you think there is so much hate on him (beside the Bangel vs Spuffy thing that is obvious)?



Why so much hate?!?
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
He looks so sad here :(
D
DanielJoulk
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BuffyBot22

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Besides the Bangel Spuffy feud, I think a lot of people just find him very bland and boring (which btw I totally don't get).
And even if you do find him boring, not sure why that is a reason to afford so much hate. Sure dislike, but hate is so strong for just being boring lol.

I have often found characters on other shows boring. I am usually indifferent towards them or have some dislike if they screw with the plot too much.

Otherwise, I'm not sure. I guess some Angel haters will have to explain. Because he is my second favorite character in the verse after Buffy. And sometimes he even out does her. I'm looking at you s7 Buffy.
 

flow

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I have been considering for the last days to open a very similar thread. Almost the same title. Just one word less.

Why so much hate ?

I don`t think, there is hate on Angel. There is hate on Angel, on Spike, on season 7, on Willow, on Xander, on Kennedy.......

I know, that it is often about Bangel versus Spuffy. But I don`t feel, that that those battle ship threads are the ones, where you find the most hate. At least it is not like that anymore. Maybe it used to be that way, before I joined this forum. And shipwars don`t explain, why Willow and Xander are being targeted as well.

I am not talking about discussing a character, an episode or a story arc. That is, what we are here for. But why can`t we discuss it in a positive way ? Why do we have to start a thread with the title "Kill character X" instead of "Let´s discuss character X" ?

@WillowFromBuffy said shortly ago in another thread, that there is not a single character, not a single epsiode, that she dosn`t love. It is the same for me (well - except for Restless. I wouldn`t go as far, as hating it, but i definitely don`t love it). This is why I watch the show again and again. This is why I am here and talk to people about the show. This is why I even read books about the show and have a Buffy-T-Shirt on my Amazon wish list. Because I love the show so much.

If I`d come to the conclusion one day, that I don`t like the show anymore, I`d stop watching. If I`d come to the conclusion, that I hate the sight of Angel, I`d start my rewatch from season 4 on and would ignore the rest. If I hated Spike, I`d watch season 1-3 again and again and ignore the rest.

I would not waste my time and the life I have been given to hate a fictional character from a tv-series, that has stopped airing almost 15 years ago.

So, I am going to ask again. Why the hate ? Why are you here, why do you watch, if you hate the show or any character or season ?

Angel is a fascinating and complex character. I don`t hate him. I love him. Heck, Buffy loved him. How can I love her and not love him all the same ? I don`t understand, why someone would or could hate Angel.

flow
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Yes this exactly this!!!!
Antho
Antho
I love your post :)

Taake

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I would not waste my time and the life I have been given to hate a fictional character from a tv-series, that has stopped airing almost 15 years ago.

So, I am going to ask again. Why the hate ? Why are you here, why do you watch, if you hate the show or any character or season ?
I'm going to be honest here and say that I always take some offense when people ask hings like this. It's like devaluing someone elses right to be part of the fandom by questioning their presence based on preferences. People react differently to things and I think whether it's love or hate what one can take from it is that the shows are able to engage viewers, in both good and bad ways. This is after all a discussion board, if the show didn't stir heated emotions/interest and if eveyone just loved everything... what would there be to discuss?


As for the thread topic, I'm not sure why people hate Angel. I imagine it's because they can't relate to his story or character in general and therefore find no real points of contact to build interest in him. He also does some really dumb shit sometimes.
 

flow

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It's like devaluing someone elses right to be part of the fandom by questioning their presence based on preferences
But a preference would be something I like or even love, wouldn`t it ? I don`t understand the hate.

flow
 

Taake

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But a preference would be something I like or even love, wouldn`t it ? I don`t understand the hate.

flow
But you don't have to love everything to be a fan. A preference may be that I prefer one season over the other. Hate, in terms of fandom, I view basically as disappointment. Feeling betrayed as a viewer attached to the story, so hate doesn't make you less of a fan, it just makes you a disappointed fan.
 

Priceless

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As a Spike fan I'm obviously not very sensitive to Angel hate, but I really don't think there is much on the board. Are you thinking of a particular thread?
 

Athene

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I don't think there's much Angel hate on here but I've become desensitised to the complaints that Angel is boring, bland, a stalker etc. I don't even considering those things hate anymore.
Are you referring to the redemption thread?
 
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I love Angel because he's the type of guy I go for in real life. He's tall, moody, doesn't talk that much, and he doesn't take any crap from anyone. He doesn't brag about stuff *coughSPIKEcough* and he'd be content to stay indoors avoiding people. Plus, he's great to have in a fight....and of course, his dry humour is very appealing.

I have no idea why anyone would hate him. He's AWESOME.
 

Antho

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I think there is a lot of criticism about Angel because "we" make comparisons between him and Spike. Depending on your preference between the two, in a situation where one is compared to the other, you will tend to favor your favorite and judge more severely the other.
 

MarieVampSlayer

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@Priceless @Athene

I got the idea for the thread in the Mr. Pole redemption thread and because I fell like I had to explain my love for Angel a couple of time. I see a lot of people don't consider him a hero because he has a soul and made mistakes. I guess I just don't understand why people don't treat him like Buffy or other heroes in the Buffyverse. I can accept that you don't find his personnality appealing but to deny him from being a hero is nonsense to me.
 
Athene
Athene
Angel is definitely a hero :)

Antho

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I got the idea for the thread in the Mr. Pole redemption thread and because I fell like I had to explain my love for Angel a couple of time. I see a lot of people don't consider him a hero because he has a soul and made mistakes. I guess I just don't understand why people don't treat him like Buffy or other heroes in the Buffyverse. I can accept that you don't find his personnality appealing but to deny him from being a hero is nonsense to me.
It's because some people think he has no merit to do good things because he has a soul o_Oo_Oo_O Well, I strongly disagree with this me too.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Exactly!!!

Priceless

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@Priceless @Athene

I got the idea for the thread in the Mr. Pole redemption thread and because I fell like I had to explain my love for Angel a couple of time. I see a lot of people don't consider him a hero because he has a soul and made mistakes. I guess I just don't understand why people don't treat him like Buffy or other heroes in the Buffyverse. I can accept that you don't find his personnality appealing but to deny him from being a hero is nonsense to me.
I didn't see any Angel hate on that thread, but like I say, I'm not particularly sensitive to it
 

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To be honest, I find it damn near impossible to hate any fictional television character and the same is true for the Buffyverse; I have an intense dislike for the direction they went with Connor in S4, I often feel like we're supposed to dislike Kennedy so that doesn't count, and Riley just wasn't written right. Straight out hating a character - particularly a main character on his own show - confuses me, though obviously fans are entitled to their opinions.

Angel has flaws but to me flaws are the best parts of a fictional character because it makes them feel real, it means they're not better than us - the viewers - and it makes for the most interesting television, imo. However, those same flaws can sometimes make some fans hate a character. Angel can be a bit pigheaded, self righteous, he tends to make decisions without consulting the other people involved in the fallout of those decisions and so on. While I can understand why such characteristics (and more) might cause some fans to not like Angel as much as other characters, straight out hatred, as I said, confuses me.

However, I don't believe it happens on this board; we have a current Angel appreciation thread, for crying out loud :D
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

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Oh oh oh oh oh! Christmas came early this year :D

So, I have loads of feelings about Angel. Sometimes I love him, sometimes I am indifferent and sometimes I absolutely hate him. He is an integral part of the Buffyverse mythology, I love the Bangel story and he is in many ways one of the most inspiring characters in the 'verse. However, in no particular order, here is my list of reasons for hating Angel. The list may seem a bit chaotic and random. He is the character in the Buffyverse that appears in the most episodes and many of this points are quite personal.

1. His I-know-what's-best-for-you break up with Buffy - I think this was what cemented the idea of Angel as the person who follows his mind rather than his heart (or tries to, at least). That did not endear me to him. I was really happy when Angel came back from Hell, but maybe he shouldn't have bothered. My biggest grievance her is that it should be Buffy's job to decide what's best for Buffy. If Angel does not want to be with Buffy, that is fine, but he should not be making decisions on her behalf.

2. The way he treated Buffy in Sanctuary - Faith may be the single cruellest villain in the entire Buffyverse. I mean, she is right up there with Angelus. I like that Angel wants to help her, but he let Buffy leave LA thinking her ex-boyfriend cared nothing about all she had suffered.

3. Having sex with Darla in Reprise - I have never hated Angel more than this scene and the scene that starts the next episode. It is very violent. He scares Darla by throwing her through a door, before picking her up and start kissing her again. He is deliberately attempting to remove his own soul.

However, the thing that bothers me the most has to do with my quite conservative views on sex. You don't have to love someone to boink them. You don't even have to know them very well. I once realised I had forgotten someone's name. However, at the very least, you should like them and try your best to treat them well. When Angel wakes up and has his great epiphany, he appears gloating. Angel gets to go back to the good guys and be a hero. Darla does not have that option, and I don't see a shred of vampire-solidarity in Angel. Uncle Tom, indeed.

4. His sometimes jarring lack of empathy and general concern for others - Angel can be a great guy, but quite often, he just isn't. There are few characters in the 'verse that irritates me as much as Angel the irritable, broody misanthrope. The quintessential appearance of this character is in Harm's Way, though we see him quite often in early seasons of AtS.

5. The way he is used as a foil to characters such as Spike and James - For those who don't know, a foil is a character that is presented as a contrast to another character. The purpose is to highlight the strengths and flaws of each. Whenever Angel is contrasted with someone else, he is usually shown as being cold and detached. The main example is when James's grief of losing his fellow vampire lover is contrasted with Angel being able to come to terms with Buffy's death.

Spike is clearly not a better person than Angel, but in episodes such as Destiny, Spike is both more compelling and more relatable than Angel is.

6. The speech in Helpless - The idea of Angel guarding Buffy's innocence from the harsh realities of the world is such a major turn off for me. Buffy needs help. She needs her friends, a mentor and a boyfriend/life partner. What she does not need is some fatherly guardian to protect her inner child.

7. His inconsistency - In the Buffyverse, Angel and Giles are the two main characters who stand for logic and reason, and I hate them both for their constant failure to live up to their own standards. Angel tells Buffy to find a nice normal guy she can have a life and babies with. Buffy does as she's told, and Angel shows up and beats the guy up. What gives?

Sometimes this inconsistency works, because Angel's struggle is to be better than anyone possibly could be. However, sometimes Angel is just so petty that he comes off as hypocritical rather than simply less-than-perfect.

@WillowFromBuffy said shortly ago in another thread, that there is not a single character, not a single epsiode, that she dosn`t love. It is the same for me
We're just bursting with love, we are :D
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Thanks for the details!

MarieVampSlayer

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Sineya
4. His sometimes jarring lack of empathy and general concern for others - Angel can be a great guy, but quite often, he just isn't. There are few characters in the 'verse that irritates me as much as Angel the irritable, broody misanthrope. The quintessential appearance of this character is in Harm's Way, though we see him quite often in early seasons of AtS.
I can understand all your point except this one. Maybe my memory is bad but where did Angel lack empathy in Harm's way?

Also, I think it is hard for Angel to have empathy for others because it is hard for him to connect with others. He connected with Buffy because they both were exceptionnal being (slayer w/humans and Souled vampire w/evil vampires) and they couldn't really be understood by others. Even Buffy can lack empathy when she has to do the good thing because at some point when you are the leader you have to put your emotions aside to make rational decisions. I also see Angel as very empathic especially in the later seasons and with the Connor new family storyline.
 

EarthLogic

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I think @Taake is right about hate often being rooted in disappointment. Though sometimes it comes from character traits or quirks that people find very annoying or distasteful. Obviously with shipping wars it's often rooted in a 'my character/pairing is better than yours' mentality.

I don't often hate characters. When I do it's usually because I think they're either poorly written and detrimental to the story in some way or on rare occasions because they horrify me, though usually characters that horrify are also fascinating.

-For example I really hated Eve. She was irritatingly peppy, had no chemistry with the rest of the cast and I felt she was a poor fit for the 'seductive liaison' role she was supposed to fill.
-Example no.2: Watching The Sopranos I've really come to detest Ralph. I find him abhorrent (even though most of the characters are abhorrent in one way or another) and even though he does have a function within the story I just can't stand him and want him to die very soon so he's just off my screen.
 
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