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Why so much hate on Angel?

Spanky

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I never really thought Angel got that big brooding rep until the third season when he was prepping for the spinoff. The character changed when he came back from the dead.
 
crazysoulless
crazysoulless
"Jet lag from Hell has got to be jet lag from Hell."

Priceless

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Ok so a lot of people seem to think that Angel is the typical brooding Batman hero but to me he is not! The Angel character is complex because I don't think that originaly Angel would be brooding. Liam wasn't brooding and Angelus neither obviously! I always felt the restraint was necessary for him to protect the ones he love from him. He doesn't emote because he is scared he is going to go too far and hurt others. I think this is very visible in the pylea episodes where he is overjoyed with being in the sun and he starts showing emotions and making friends in the new universe. He then turns into the demon and hurt his friends which always happens for him. After Fred help him comeback to himself, he is dark and brooding again because he is reminded of the guilt and why has to always be in control.
You are talking about a different Angel here. This is Angel in his own show, away from Buffy. I agree with you, Angel is much more consistent and authentic on his own show, when he's not acting against/with Buffy's teen drama.
 

EarthLogic

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She was definitely the least talented actor on Buffy...though, she had a few entertaining moments on Angel S1-2. But once her hair was cut, all was lost. I wonder if whatever talent she had was in her hair...? Haha. :p
Remember in 'Spin the Bottle' when we got teen-Cordy back: 'Oh God, my hair! The government gave me bad hair!'
 

BuffyBot22

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She was definitely the least talented actor on Buffy...though, she had a few entertaining moments on Angel S1-2. But once her hair was cut, all was lost. I wonder if whatever talent she had was in her hair...? Haha. :p
LOL it was in the hair, because when she appeared in Veronica Mars, her hair was long and she was back to playing a superficial bitch and CC did pretty well with that
 
Yeah I agree, Spike hugging that cross, pretty melodramatic :D But it comes back to the basic disconnect I feel about Angel. Spike is presented as a larger than life character, and for me his behaviour befits this. Angel is presented as a brooding, angsty introvert, who internalises his pain and is possibly a depressive, but when he's with Buffy his behaviour is that of a 15 year old boy having a melodramatic spat with his gf :D

I think that's partly the writing and direction they wanted to take the character, but I also think it's DB not having a firm grasp on who Angel is, and simply following SMG's lead in ramping up the emotion (acceptable and believable in a 16 year old girl, but not in a 240 year old man) This why I feel a disconnect with his character; we are asked to believe he is one thing, while his behaviour tells us he's something else.
Let's just say I highly disagree with this.

Angel- angst. You said it. Angst usually goes hand in hand with melodrama.

Spike is overly dramatic most of the time. But, he actually isn't involved in much melodrama until it comes to Buffy. He also acts like much more of an entitled brat with Buffy than with Dru. He still acted like one with her, but it was much less intense.
Spike behaved like a child who did not get his way.

Angel behaved like a grown man most of the time. Sure, sometimes he was petty. And sometimes he got heated in an argument. Just because he broods and is often times restrained, does not mean he can't ever show other emotions. That would be ridiculous lol.
 
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Priceless
Priceless
Agree to disagree . . . :-)

Mr Trick

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If we're just talking about Angel the character I'm not sure there is that much hate for him on here. I think one reason many prefer Buffy out of the two shows is because SMG is more engaging to them both as an actor and the character she plays. Which I can understand.
 

thetopher

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Reasons I don't like Angel:
- Eh, I'm not a big fan of Buffy S1 Angel; the acting isn't great and he's not much of a help; gives the occasional bit of cryptic clues, gets beaten up a bit; kinda a bit jealous. I'll pass; its cute that Buffy likes him but that's all.
...
But in S2 he gets a lot better imo and gets better season after season (AtS S3 being the exception for the most part)

- He does dumb stuff like in S3 Amends; all characters do dumb stuff but Amends tends to leave me cold; the guy survives 100 years of Hell, keeps his sanity, still remembers Buffy and after a Christmas night of The First he's blubbering 'I'm weak and I need to die', pfft, dude show some self-awareness!

- Twilight; no longer a hero, more like a mastermind super-villain with very sketchy reasoning; but then not many characters come out of the comics with anything approaching likability so...


Why other people might hate him:
- Big, stupid forehead/hair style.
- He's quiet, which many people mistake as dull
- He's acting 'tics'; well, all actors have these to one extent or another; I think DB avoids this trap fairly well.
- The contrast with Spike (with a soul); Spike is loud and rude and 'fun', has killer abs and sucks in his cheekbones a lot when he's thinking nasty/evil thoughts...and in contrast Angel comes off as a bit staid by comparison; well, you know what they say about the squeaky, bratty, immature, entitled wheel...

- 'He broods all the time! The guilt over what the other guy did! It's so stooopid and annoying!' This is the big one I find; they don't get Angel repenting for something his demon did; whereas I see it as not only very realistic (how could horrific memories NOT affect your behavior going forward trying to live your life?) but also a manifestation/proof of his great empathy/humanity.

- He does some fairly questionable things over the course of his own show- but then so does everybody on either show; and its not like his actions aren't consistent with his character. To me it tends to make him more interesting an not the dull person his critics claim he is.
 
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Mrs Gordo

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- He does dumb stuff like in S3 Amends; all characters do dumb stuff but Amends tends to leave me cold; the guy survives 100 years of Hell, keeps his sanity, still remembers Buffy and after a Christmas night of The First he's blubbering 'I'm weak and I need to die', pfft, dude show some self-awareness!
I get where you are coming from in that he has survived 100 years of hell and kept his sanity (although it did take him some time to get back to sanity) so he has shown, as Giles put it, "extraordinary... will and character" (which incidentally is why the episode "Birthday" is such unimaginable garbage - but I digress). I think what "Amends" shows us is that while Angel has an uncanny ability to survive, what he is grappling with is whether or not he should exist. He is having an existential crisis regarding his return from hell. Why is he here? Why did he come back? Why does he exist? The only reason Angel pulled himself from the rubble in the first place is that the Powers told him that his destiny was to help Buffy. And then he ends up losing his soul, killing her teacher, and causing her pain and suffering. Add to this that TF turns that very mission on its head by saying "You were born to hurt her." Angel decides 'well if that's true then I'll die.' And TF is smart. It prays on his fear. That he could turn again, that he could once again become a monster. And his desire for Buffy is real. He is, after all, still in love with her. Still desires her in a very human way. So it is very reasonable that Angel would think, that if there is even a possibility that he was brought back just to destroy her or hinder her he is NOT going to let that happen.

That is why the magical snow is so important. Buffy doesn't convince him to live. It can't just be about her anymore. He has to believe that there is a greater Power that wants him around. That there is more to this than the dichotomy of will I be good for Buffy or bad for Buffy. That his purpose isn't just tied to her. This is the birth of his greater mission statement. Maybe there is another reason he is spared. And, of course, Buffy's words resonate with him, after all, it forms the basis of what he stands for: "Fighting is strong, it's painful and it's every day." is reiterated in s4 AtS "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions."

Anyway, I rambled a bit, but I think it's very in character for Angel (especially at this time in his unlife) to go straight for "well then I'll die" when he thinks he might be a danger to Buffy. Because if it comes down to her life or his he doesn't give much value, at this time, for his own unlife (and in fact, he will almost always choose to protect a human life over his own - see e.g. The Trial - and yes I say almost always because he does do some questionable sh*t during his beige!Angel days). But in Amends, he is not willing to take a risk with her life or the lives of those she loves if he thinks he could hurt them again. So that's kinda my take on the whole shebang.
 
GraceK
GraceK
This is fantastic
BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
Love this!
Jam
Jam
Well said!

Jam

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'He broods all the time! The guilt over what the other guy did! It's so stooopid and annoying!' This is the big one I find; they don't get Angel repenting for something his demon did; whereas I see it as not only very realistic (how could horrific memories NOT affect your behavior going forward trying to live your life?) but also a manifestation/proof of his great empathy/humanity.
Couldn't agree more! I understand that it's fiction and that the quiet, broody character isn't entertaining for a number of people, but Angel has very good reason to act in such ways and this is often overlooked by viewers. (I'm about to basically re-word a comment I've made on another site here, but it's relevant!) He has 100+ years worth of memories and images of causing devastation, brutality, bloodshed, etc. Those kind of images are deeply ingrained into your memory and will certainly have an effect on a person's psyche and general outlook on things. People can get PTSD from witnessing traumatic events, and people who work with certain populations can experience vicarious trauma; I see Angel's situation along these lines.

I could go on about how after Angel is cursed with his soul, he essentially lives in isolation with no ties to the world, but I'll stop here because it's a topic I could talk about at length.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
OMG! Amends. I love that episode, but it is so hard to forgive Angel for not following Buffy inside. "What about me?" What good is a soul, if you can't be swayed by Buffy crying?
 

spikenbuffy

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Because people think of him as a boring character, for some people he's not interesting but it's not a reason to hate him, people should simply be indifferent. But I hope that some people who are Angel fans and don't like the complaining of Angel being seen as boring don't hate or dislike Riley for being also boring or not interesting because well it's the same thing.
 

OldSchoolVamp

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While I am fond of Angel, it isn't really all that ard to understand why Mr. Takinghimselfsoseriously can be annoying. I rarely get why people bother to hate a fictional character, though.
Well said. Angel happens to new my character but I get why people can hate
 

Antho

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But I hope that some people who are Angel fans and don't like the complaining of Angel being seen as boring don't hate or dislike Riley for being also boring or not interesting because well it's the same thing.
I don't think the two thing are uncomparable. It's all subject to the feeling of the person. I mean I don't find Angel boring, for me he is complex and I think I understand his character pretty well and I relate to him, so I enjoy watching him and his development but maybe others struggle with him and don't find him interesting. Riley on other hand isn't a character with the same level of development than Angel, he isn't as much deeper and his personality isn't as much interesting. I like Riley but I think it can be realistic that someone love Angel and hate Riley.
 

spikenbuffy

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I don't think the two thing are uncomparable. It's all subject to the feeling of the person. I mean I don't find Angel boring, for me he is complex and I think I understand his character pretty well and I relate to him, so I enjoy watching him and his development but maybe others struggle with him and don't find him interesting. Riley on other hand isn't a character with the same level of development than Angel, he isn't as much deeper and his personality isn't as much interesting. I like Riley but I think it can be realistic that someone love Angel and hate Riley.
Ok, It's just that some Angel fans who don't like or HATE riley because they see riley as boring or not interesting, I think they should understand what people mean when they think Angel as boring (even if they don't think Angel as boring) because those people feel the same about riley (even if riley is not as developed like Angel). But still to hate a character because being boring or not interesting is a little harsh (Angel or riley). They should just be indifferent.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Ok, It's just that some Angel fans who don't like or HATE riley because they see riley as boring or not interesting, I think they should understand what people mean when they think Angel as boring (even if they don't think Angel as boring) because those people feel the same about riley (even if riley is not as developed like Angel). But still to hate a character because being boring or not interesting is a little harsh (Angel or riley). They should just be indifferent.
Yeah, no because Angel is an incredibly rich and well developed character with a deep history, a destiny that is tied to Buffy, with a wonderful arc, and who is the cornerstone of one half of the buffyverse.

Riley is a cardboard box that was only around for about a year.

There really is no comparison.
 

RomanticSoul

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Ok, It's just that some Angel fans who don't like or HATE riley because they see riley as boring or not interesting, I think they should understand what people mean when they think Angel as boring (even if they don't think Angel as boring) because those people feel the same about riley (even if riley is not as developed like Angel). But still to hate a character because being boring or not interesting is a little harsh (Angel or riley). They should just be indifferent.
So what exactly is so 'boring' about him? The word keeps being used as an explanation for hate/indifference without actually going into detail as to what constitutes as boring. The comparison with Riley doesn't even work and it's weird to use Riley almost as an excuse. 'Well if you hate Riley for being boring you should understand how people feel about Angel'. Why though? Angel and Riley are vastly different characters, with different mentalities/morals/characteristics and a very different past. You simply can't compare their 'boring-ness'. Even if someone finds both characters boring, just throwing the word around won't mean anything due to the major difference between the 2 characters.
 
spikenbuffy
spikenbuffy
I don't think Angel is boring, in your post you say, there is no comparaison between riley and Angel. Ok.

thetopher

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Also point out that Angel's both a love interest on one show and the title character on another, so if you don't like him, its gonna become really intolerable really quickly and you're gonna want to express this; probably often and loudly because Angel is a big slice of screen-time.

It's not like hating on a guest-star who rarely shows up like Faith or Harmony, or somebody who has a definitive arc/time on the show like Darla or Lindsey; Angel is a major aspect of the Buffyverse; impossible to ignore; people who hate him probably hate that fact a lot as well.
 

Antho

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Is Angel one of the most hated character on Buffy ? If so why he got his own show ? I don’t understand why we have a spin-off if the character wasn’t popular !
 

thetopher

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Angel- angst. You said it. Angst usually goes hand in hand with melodrama.

Spike is overly dramatic most of the time. But, he actually isn't involved in much melodrama until it comes to Buffy. He also acts like much more of an entitled brat with Buffy than with Dru. He still acted like one with her, but it was much less intense.
Spike behaved like a child who did not get his way.

Angel behaved like a grown man most of the time. Sure, sometimes he was petty. And sometimes he got heated in an argument. Just because he broods and is often times restrained, does not mean he can't ever show other emotions.
I think this Angel and Spike melodrama comparison is interesting. Here's my take. Spike, being a romantic type who thrives on attention is often deliberately melodramatic. It's how he thinks a lot of the time, even when he's not with Buffy he thinks that she's obsessed with him and plotting to screw up his life in some way- this is evident from S4 onward.
Spike has these delusions of his importance in other people's lives (at least whilst he's soulless) and so he plays to that- that's pure melodrama.

Angel can also be melodramatic but never knowingly so. He has an image he has cultivated (like Spike) and its done a lot to hide his insecurities (like Spike) but he's more or less completely unaware of its effects. He never thinks of himself as melodramatic, he just wants the quiet life and maybe to help people.
The dissonance he experiences from the juxtaposition of how he's perceived and how he wants to be perceived is one of the more amusing things about Angel.

This also explains why they never really get along; you just can't have two melodramatic people 'on stage' at the same time. Spike resents how Angel rather effortlessly 'hogs the spotlight' and so he acts out (this is especially notable in AtS S5) and Angel is completely unaware of why Spike is being so irritating in his behavior, and always ends up mirroring Spike to a degree, albeit unintentionally.
 
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