Why so much hate on Angel?

[WillowFromBuffy]

Spike, being a romantic type who thrives on attention is often deliberately melodramatic. It's how he thinks a lot of the time, even when he's not with Buffy he thinks that she's obsessed with him and plotting to screw up his life in some way- this is evident from S4 onward.
Spike has these delusions of his importance in other people's lives (at least whilst he's soulless) and so he plays to that- that's pure melodrama.

I would say Spike is deluded. To say that he is deliberate as well as deluded is a paradox I am unable to quite wrap my head around. The #1 victim of Spike's seductive powers is himself. I think he is pretty sold on his own hype.

The dissonance he experiences from the juxtaposition of how he's perceived and how he wants to be perceived is one of the more amusing things about Angel.

I don't get it. Is this Angel's simultaneous awareness of these two ideas a constant thing, would you say?

I think people ignore that Angel's drama-ness is often appropriate to the situation. Angel's story is a melodrama. Angel himself is just trying to deal.

 

[thetopher]

I would say Spike is deluded. To say that he is deliberate as well as deluded is a paradox I am unable to quite wrap my head around.

Spike is deluded as to his own importance in the scheme of things. He's 'the Big Bad' that's about as deliberately melodramatic and 'attention-getting' as anyone could hope for, but he is deluded by his own hype.
Perhaps its fair to say he gets lost in the role.

I mean, what is his snarky personality if not a constant desire to be noticed and get a reaction. The guy can't stand to be ignored. I think that's one of the reasons that Spike can be seen as one of the more 'sociable' vampires, he goes out and seeks attention.

I don't get it. Is this Angel's simultaneous awareness of these two ideas a constant thing, would you say?

Angel's aware that he puts on a facade- that's deliberate- but the facade has kinda the opposite effect to some people than the one he wants. Angel- generally speaking- doesn't like attention; he lurks and broods He doesn't socialize or dance or sing in public.
If he wants to get attention its usually so he can intimidate a bad guy.

But...it tends to have the opposite effect sometimes; An example- like many people accuse Angel of 'manipulating' Buffy in S1 because he breezes in to her life and is all cryptic, stares at her intently and then leaves mysteriously. 16 year old Buffy thinks this is rather dreamy. But its not intentional, Angel's just doing that because he's trying to avoid being caught up in Buffy's life. He doesn't want to get close. Hence facade (that's melodramatic because its a bit of a cliche persona)

Whenever people critique Angel's image or makes fun of his relationship with Buffy he tends to get uncomfortable or annoyed because 'that's not him, he isn't like that', he's this other type of guy.

So both vampires use a melodramatic persona as a kind of emotional protection? I dunno, I'm sorta riffing as a go here.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I think this Angel and Spike melodrama comparison is interesting. Here's my take. Spike, being a romantic type who thrives on attention is often deliberately melodramatic. It's how he thinks a lot of the time, even when he's not with Buffy he thinks that she's obsessed with him and plotting to screw up his life in some way- this is evident from S4 onward.
Spike has these delusions of his importance in other people's lives (at least whilst he's soulless) and so he plays to that- that's pure melodrama.

Angel can also be melodramatic but never knowingly so. He has an image he has cultivated (like Spike) and its done a lot to hide his insecurities (like Spike) but he's more or less completely unaware of its effects. He never thinks of himself as melodramatic, he just wants the quiet life and maybe to help people.
The dissonance he experiences from the juxtaposition of how he's perceived and how he wants to be perceived is one of the more amusing things about Angel.

This also explains why they never really get along; you just can't have two melodramatic people 'on stage' at the same time. Spike resents how Angel rather effortlessly 'hogs the spotlight' and so he acts out (this is especially notable in AtS S5) and Angel is completely unaware of why Spike is being so irritating in his behavior, and always ends up mirroring Spike to a degree, albeit unintentionally.

I think this is a great character analysis! I agree with all of it.

I was more or less saying how it seems to appear on screen to the viewers, or at least to me.

Angel broods quite often and has a lot of angst surrounding his relationships, friendships, and character in general. Angst is usually connected to melodrama.
While Spike is more over the top in all of his actions which comes off as incredibly dramatic. Even if what he is doing is melodramatic, I feel like some viewers see his flamboyance as more dramatic than melodramatic. This is because everything Spike does or says always seems excessive like he is just over dramatic on a consistent basis.

 

[walkthruthefire]

so here's the thing. i dont like offending people, really.
but angel is an exception. i HATE him. HATE JUST HATE CANT STAND.
first off, he only loved Buffy with a soul. spike loved her regardless. he was puppy love. a high school crush. mr oh so perfect. and then he leaves buffy. why? cause they want her to get with spike, and he was in the way. not to mention, then he gets his own spin off? why!??! he's sooooo bland! boring! blah!
any of the other characters would have had better spin offs.
sorry, done ranting.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

but angel is an exception. i HATE him. HATE JUST HATE CANT STAND.

That's what I thought in the first 3 seasons of Buffy.

first off, he only loved Buffy with a soul. spike loved her regardless.

But this is because of their personality as a human - it determines how they act, how they process emotion and yes, how they love. Spike was already a romantic, Angel was a drunk who wasn't really a good person.

why? cause they want her to get with spike, and he was in the way

No, that wasn't why. It wasn't really in their minds at that point, SMG and JM just had good chemistry together. The Bangel love story was told, there wasn't much else they could do with it anyway. Also the tragic love story thing is a bit of a trope and it works better than Angel just brooding about the place.

not to mention, then he gets his own spin off? why!??! he's sooooo bland! boring! blah!

He was boring, which put me off it at first, I was amazed at how much I loved it. He really does gain a personality and is actually interesting.

any of the other characters would have had better spin offs.

I mean, we can never know that for sure, but he was a good choice because:
1. He had an excuse to leave Sunnydale.
2. Has an excuse to continue battling demons.
3. He was loved enough to bring in an audience.
4. He has a lot of history and guilt to explore.

 

[walkthruthefire]

spike still would have made a better spin off. angels story is very basic.

 

[Puppet]

spike still would have made a better spin off. angels story is very basic.

When would spinning off Spike have been a good idea? I genuinely wish to know, because I can't see any moment where him getting his own show would make more sense than Angel. After S3, he was still 'just' a villain, so that wouldn't have worked. In S5 and S6 his story revolved entirely around Buffy, so that would make no sense whatsoever. In S7...maybe? We could've had the recently-ensouled-origin-story that we only briefly got on Angel in flashbacks. But...I still wouldn't say that that's a better time for him than Angel post-S3.

It's cool to like Spike as a character better than Angel, but that doesn't automatically mean that Spike would have a more successful, better-written spin-off. Imo, of course.

 

[RachM]

first off, he only loved Buffy with a soul. spike loved her regardless.

This really has nothing to do with anything; a character's likability should be measured by more than just their love interest. Additionally, Angelus didn't love anyone without a soul, this is just a part of his characterisation, it's not unique to Buffy. And when Angel did have a soul and did love Buffy, he loved her deeply and treated her well. Spike, with or without a soul, regardless of love, treated Buffy very badly and should be judged on his actions, not his emotions.

he was puppy love. a high school crush. mr oh so perfect.

Buffy and Angel were far from Puppy Love. They loved one another very deeply, envisioned their futures together and shared a deep bond/connection built on shared experiences, identifying with the loneliness and isolation they both felt and the burden of walking two worlds without belonging to either. They also never stopped loving or caring for one another and were always there when the other needed them. They stated several times that they never loved anyone the way they loved one another. While they both had other romances and connected with other people, their love for one another never faded. That is hardly Puppy Love.

Additionally, Angel was never presented as "Mr Oh So Perfect". Rather, he was presented for what he was; a tortured vampire with a soul, who had human flaws and faults but who tried his best to make amends for his past.

and then he leaves buffy. why? cause they want her to get with spike, and he was in the way.

Spike wasn't being considered as a Love Interest for Buffy that early. Angel left because he wanted Buffy to have the chance at happiness and normalcy. He couldn't offer her a future and he was a danger to her because of the whole Perfect Happiness thing. After the Angelus period in Season 2, Angel felt deep shame and guilt over his actions and he didn't want to hurt Buffy the way he previously had. He left to give her happiness and peace.

not to mention, then he gets his own spin off? why!??! he's sooooo bland! boring! blah!
any of the other characters would have had better spin offs.
sorry, done ranting.

Have you actually watched AtS? Because, as a character, Angel is hardly bland or boring on his own show (not that he's either on BtVS either). AtS expands his characterisation, giving him many layers and allowing him to grow and change, face challenges and try his best to make the world a better place. It's hardly a "basic story". Angel could carry a spin-off better than many other characters and his show was well-received because of this (and many other factors). Just because you don't particularly connect with his character that doesn't mean that he shouldn't have received a spin-off or that his character wasn't worthy of his own show.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I cannot understand why you, @walkthuthefire hate Angel so much, just because it is a fun thing to do.
That first quote on RachM' s reply has elements that are right even though they are wrong to say so as, first off he only loved Buffy with a soul. The reply being that it must be wrong as even in the nightmare when Buffy was a vampire she had a soul. Also it made false the belief that vampires don't have souls unless forced into them, as wrong! Buggers up what I said don't it?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Evil Spike is definitely a more fun character than Angel, however I think Angel was the best one to use to carry a spin off (or at the very least the first spin off) because he had the whole seeking redemption thing going on.

On Buffy, Angel didn't get the character depth he got on his own show. In Season 1, the writers weren't sure what to do with him for the first couple of episodes before eventually figuring out a backstory. Season 2 is Angel's best season on Buffy because elements from his past (Spike and Drusilla) play a big role plus we get the Angelus arc. In Season 3 the writers didn't seem to know what to do with him after Season 2 so it felt like he was just hanging around and waiting for his show to start. Angel's own show made him a more interesting character than his time on Buffy did.

As for Bangel, they were set up to be each other's one true love and I don't think that will ever change.

 

[Btvs fan]

Evil Spike is definitely a more fun character than Angel, however I think Angel was the best one to use to carry a spin off (or at the very least the first spin off) because he had the whole seeking redemption thing going on.

On Buffy, Angel didn't get the character depth he got on his own show. In Season 1, the writers weren't sure what to do with him for the first couple of episodes before eventually figuring out a backstory. Season 2 is Angel's best season on Buffy because elements from his past (Spike and Drusilla) play a big role plus we get the Angelus arc. In Season 3 the writers didn't seem to know what to do with him after Season 2 so it felt like he was just hanging around and waiting for his show to start. Angel's own show made him a more interesting character than his time on Buffy did.

As for Bangel, they were set up to be each other's one true love and I don't think that will ever change.

If that's true then having him stare at her as a 15 year old from a blacked out car was probably not a good idea.

While on his own show the character is developed so much that its jarring when they did Crossovers and it felt like they reset him almost

 

[Thieving gypsy]

If that's true then having him stare at her as a 15 year old from a blacked out car was probably not a good idea.

How so?
The scene you're talking about isn't the fans introduction to Buffy and Angel. They've known each other for two season (i think) when we are given this scene in a flash back.
You deliberately worded your comment because you want to make Angel seem creepy.
The reality is, Angel wasn't there to watch a 15 year old. He had been sent there to watch a Slayer be called. He was in a blacked out car because it was day and we already know Angel is a vampire. I mean, Spike also has a car with blacked out windows. I guess he too was out watching 15 year olds.

 

[Puppet]

How so?
The scene you're talking about isn't the fans introduction to Buffy and Angel. They've known each other for two season (i think) when we are given this scene in a flash back.
You deliberately worded your comment because you want to make Angel seem creepy.
The reality is, Angel wasn't there to watch a 15 year old. He had been sent there to watch a Slayer be called. He was in a blacked out car because it was day and we already know Angel is a vampire. I mean, Spike also has a car with blacked out windows. I guess he too was out watching 15 year olds.

"I fell in love with you the first time I saw you." I believe that sentence from Angel is what the previous poster is talking about - though I'm not trying to make assumptions here. While I wouldn't say that their relationship is creepy, this part always squicks me out. She is 15, she is shallow AF and she is sucking on a lollipop. I don't know what the writers were thinking with that one.

 

[RachM]

"I fell in love with you the first time I saw you." I believe that sentence from Angel is what the previous poster is talking about - though I'm not trying to make assumptions here. While I wouldn't say that their relationship is creepy, this part always squicks me out. She is 15, she is shallow AF and she is sucking on a lollipop. I don't know what the writers were thinking with that one.

I think one of the issues with the whole "Angel sees Buffy called as the Slayer" sequence, is that there are some very weird choices made which make the scene feel squicky if the context is ignored. But I think knowing the context and realizing what the writers were trying to achieve removes much of the squick.

Putting Buffy in bright pink and extremely young/girly clothes and having her suck a lollipop? Bad move. The writers were clearly trying to demonstrate that Buffy was a very different person at that point and wanted to show how being called as the Slayer changed her life but they chose the wrong way to do so. Honestly, just listening to her dialogue would have been enough to let us know how different she was. But because she looks so young, it makes Angel come across as creepy, if the context of the scene is ignored (ie that he was sent there by TPTB to see the Slayer get called).

We're not supposed to feel any connection between Buffy and Angel until he sees the toll that being the Slayer is already taking on her and sees how her life is not perfect, with her parents arguing because she came home late. Angel identifies with the loneliness and isolation he sees in Buffy and he wants to help her, to ease her burden, because he knows what that burden is like. I don't even think we're supposed to read the scene as overly romantic and definitely not sexual at all, but rather as one lonely soul recognising another.

When Angel tells Buffy that he loved her from the moment he saw her, it's obviously supposed to be an exaggeration. In the scene in question, Buffy is worrying about who she will be without her Slayer powers and is scared that she will revert back to the shallow girl we saw in Becoming. Angel is trying to reassure her that she wasn't a bad person before she became the Slayer and tells her how he could recognise that she was a good person with a good heart, even back then. Again, a two-hundred-and-forty-year-old vampire saying that he loved a fiften/sixteen-year-old girl out of context is squicky, but not within the context of the scene and the show.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Angel identifies with the loneliness and isolation he sees in Buffy and he wants to help her, to ease her burden, because he knows what that burden is like.

I really love the scenes in "Becoming," but Angel's words in "Helpless" makes no mistakes. Angel could have said, "I saw you conquer your fear and fight the vampires, and I loved you," or he could have said, "I saw you try to be a hero, as your home life fell apart, and I loved," but that isn't what he says. First he says this: "
It was a bright afternoon out in front of your school. You walked down the steps and I loved you," and then he says this: "I could see your heart. You held it before you for everyone to see."

Buffy doesn't hold her heart out. She is clutching it so tight to her chest that it should be breaking from pressure. We know Buffy is worried about her parents' marriage and her father's supposed affair, but she is exuding an ice front, as she tells her girlfriends about some boy she is going to manipulate. There's no way Angel could look past that thick shield and into Buffy's essence.

The scene doesn't work as a comment on "Becoming" and it doesn't work in the context of "Helpless." Angel is supposed to convince Buffy that she has worth without her super powers, so he starts talking about seeing her act conceited and mean, but misrepresents the memory completely.

It could have been a great scene, because Buffy clearly has admirable qualities outside of her strength, but Angel goes with, "smthn ... sthmn ... heart ... beautiful ... love."

 

[SpikeRocks]

Soooooo, I made a list of 18 reasons why I “hate” Angel lol. I’m very sure this is biased, but everyone’s opinions are….

I was kind of happy to find this thread (late though, as I may be), because I’ve been needing to vent my hate-y feelings about Angel for a while now lol…Good-naturedly! I’ll preface by saying, I do love ATS (most of the time), and there’s plenty of times when I’m quite tickled by Angel and enjoy him. But simply put, he’s just not my cup of tea as a hero or a person/man(-pire). I pretty much love the Angel series IN SPITE of Angel….donno how I manage that lol. I put up with him, I guess. The times I appreciate him and enjoy him just tend to pale in comparison to my “can’t stand him” feelings, or my “don’t care” feelings about him.

1) The acting: I don’t want to be harsh, because I think sometimes David was able to really go there (what immediately comes to mind, is when he tells Darla that she damned him)….but these two series’ were at the beginning of his acting career, and he just didn’t have the chops. So, when I looked into his eyes, when I watched his face, when I took him in on-screen, I rarely ever got “sucked-in” by his performance. I think the number of times I did over both shows, is under 5. So that’s no bueno in terms of leaving an impression, making me care, or fostering Angel-love from me. His acting as Angelus is far better, quite possibly because Angelus is written more compellingly….This is with the exception of Angelus in S4 of ATS and in S5 flashbacks, which don’t land well for me. I heard somewhere David had more free-reign in his portrayal of Angelus at these times….it was not good.

2) His hero’s journey and personal arc: just not into it.

3) He’s boring/not compelling: I’m happy when I learn more about him and learn more of his backstory, but flashbacks are pretty much the ONLY time my interest is sparked for digging into Angel and learning more about him. I’m not compelled to see what he does with his weekend. I don’t care. I don’t WANT to watch him. I honestly don’t think I’ll be surprised or learn anything new. Layers and depth, just aren’t there.

4) The one-note moping and brooding, and his constant blank-face (It doesn’t matter WHY he is this way, I get why, but this is not something an audience can connect with).

5) His personality: bounces between absent and bland. The most we get from him, are when he’s being petulant/immature, or when he’s being overly-male and testosterone-y.

6) His lack of communication skills and his stereotypical “I’m a guy, so I’m going to bottle up my feelings until they explode in anger or violence” schtick…..I have no patience for it. It happens a lot, and I think it’s to give us a different note from his usual moping/brooding, but come on….is this really the only way to open him up and get our attention? The one time I liked it for his character, is when he “tells-off” Buffy at the end of Sanctuary. I really liked him expressing himself there, that was good.

7) He’s petty (sometimes it’s funny, but MOST of the time it's extremely annoying and tiresome)

8) He’s vain and image-obsessed….Can’t stand it.

9) He’s very clearly obsessive (sometimes, in a VERY creepy way) and controlling.

10) He’s an alpha-douche A LOT of the time…….That is not my kind of hero.

11) His jealousy….way too much of it.

12) He’s emotionally stunted/immature to an annoying degree for someone his age.

13) His old-fashioned attitude towards women and “damsel-ing” them. It’s relentless, and never improves over the series.

14) He’s REGULARLY an asshole and a bully.…I’ll cite all of Season 5 for this one, but that’s just where it happens to be most concentrated episode after episode.

15) He’s extremely overbearing and patronizing towards other characters. Buffy especially.

16) His “I know best” attitude, and his habit of making huge unilateral decisions that affect others, reprehensibly without their knowledge.

17) He’s just kind of a shitty person…not too great….this goes all the way back to who he was when he was human. I think I would normally respond well to this being a part of his story: the type of person he’s trying to grow away from being…….the very, unhero-y, weak parts of himself that constantly resurface, that he has to overcome……….BUT for some reason, his flaws don’t endear him to me or make him a more interesting hero or anti-hero, they just make him kind of sucky.

18) This falls low on my list, because I consider it a misguided writing decision/a product of the times more than anything else, but I can’t ignore it: Angel starts a romantic relationship with a 16yr old….and by his own admission, “fell in love with her” when he first saw her when she’s 15yrs old, sucking on a lollypop outside her school, and as a child crying in the bathroom as her parents fight. Forget his vamp years, because if he was an immortal teenager, this wouldn’t at all be a problem for me. But he’s a grown adult man, who happens to be immortal/a vampire. I know there was some retconning about his specific age at the time he was turned (26 yrs old) because of David visibly aging, but he was written and portrayed as an adult from the get-go. I first saw the show as a young adolescent myself, and I did not swoon over the mysterious older man lurking around the high-schooler……I was more like, WTF? It was fine at first, he wasn’t being overly creepy or predatory or ill-intentioned……but the MINUTE he started being all “overcome with feelings” for this young girl, and started pursuing/allowing that relationship, it really tainted Angel’s likability for me. Some of the cringiest things springing to my mind right now: Angel being in Buffy’s girly teenage bedroom while she calls him her “cradle-robbing boyfriend”…….Angel picking up her notebook in The Prom, with the Angel + Buffy 4 Ever hearts scribbled all over it…..every time Buffy was so obviously a young, immature teenager and Angel was, well, Angel. Like, dude, what are you doing?

Overall, Angel with Buffy is some of the WORST Angel to me (and vice versa)….it stunted him, and also consistently brought out some of his worst characteristics. One time I really loved an Angel/Buffy interaction, is when Angel shows up to Buffy’s mom’s funeral. It was so refreshing to see them together minus all melodrama, minus all teenage angsty nonsense, minus all jealousy, minus Angel’s patronizing/overbearing/dismissive attitude towards Buffy….and to just see them there as friends, and supportive, and engaging in a truly REAL way. It landed, it was very relatable, and I get sucked-in to that moment……….Of course, the moment gets totally ruined for me when they start kissing hahaha….I guess because I don’t give two figs about their high-school, melodrama romance that’s LONG over, or the “instant and enduring” connection they supposedly have (NEVER picked up on that myself)….Or maybe because I don’t find Angel/David at all sexy?? I don’t know lol….whenever David is going for sexy/passionate, I just get taken right out of the moment because it makes me laugh. And SMG was doing her mouth-not-moving/lips-pursed/brow-furrowed/up-down neck movement thing she does, when she’s trying to go for “passionate/losing herself” in the kiss, like with Parker. Too contrived for me. Anyway…..

I love what Cordelia did for Angel’s character. Faith also made Angel more interesting. And I love Angel as a dad and what that did for him….pretty much loved all of Angel’s “dad-ing”. I think Wesley, Cordy, Darla, Faith, and Connor (hate him) did the most for Angel’s character. Buffy’s presence/influence makes me not-stand Angel, and Spike’s presence/influence makes me not-stand Angel. If we want a good Angel who develops and grows, Buffy and Spike shouldn’t be anywhere near him IMO lol

 

[burrunjor]

Hey all!

I wanted to discuss Angel with you because before the BB I though everyone loved Angel like me and well that's really not the case. I was curious to know why people felt so strongly against him because to me and from the show's perspective he is a hero, flawed but still a hero.

So here are my questions?

If you hate Angel why is that?
If you love Angel why do you think there is so much hate on him (beside the Bangel vs Spuffy thing that is obvious)?

Why so much hate?!?

I didn't think they did?

He is the leading character in a big series so he must have some fans.

I think Angel was pretty boring for the most part on Buffy. Clearly there was potential there, but other than when he became Angelus, Angel was generally just Buffy's love interest, the guy who sometimes helps her out, but is a big sap.

On his own series however he became one of the best characters in anything. He was a total badass, but we also saw his more humorous side through his awful singing, petty dislike of Spike, and his world class dancing.

Angel I don't dance

Overall I'd still say he was a better love interest than Spike for Buffy, as he was created to fit that role, but then escaped it and became a rich character in his own right. Spike sadly it seems wias the reverse.

I can’t ignore it: Angel starts a romantic relationship with a 16yr old….and by his own admission, “fell in love with her” when he first saw her when she’s 15yrs old, sucking on a lollypop outside her school, and as a child crying in the bathroom as her parents fight. Forget his vamp years, because if he was an immortal teenager, this wouldn’t at all be a problem for me. But he’s a grown adult man, who happens to be immortal/a vampire. I know there was some retconning about his specific age at the time he was turned (26 yrs old) because of David visibly aging, but he was written and portrayed as an adult from the get-go. I


I generally like Angel/Buffy. I think that Buffy's love for him was more in character and Angelus being let loose is the show at it's absolute best. However I can't disagree that this was a really, really creepy aspect to it.

If they did reboot Angel and Buffy they'd need to cast a younger actor as Angel, or have him meet her when she is older.

 

[katmobile]

I don't hate Angel but I'm more ambivalent towards him than many. There are times he makes me want to punch the air, there are times he makes me want to punch him. I guess justifying everything he does as right by some makes me annoyed.

It is textual that Angel isn't perfect and some of his decisions are morally grey buttt for me - I think he could have fought harder for Lindsay's soul. He basically leaves him to probably die in Blind Date for a scroll and yawns during his backstory I'm not woobifying Lindsay here who made some bad choices but if you compare how hard Angel fought for Faith - a punch the air moment - then it shows he didn't care and never really believed in Lindsay. Plus putting cops suckon his car was just petty.

I feel Angel can be petty and vindictive sometimes and his fans don't notice or justify it.

I'm very ambivalent about a lot of Angel's Daddy Knows Best attitude towards people especially Buffy in IWRY and the mind wipe of his friends at the end of season four - on the one hand aultruistic and on the other it robbed people of agency and in the case of his friends the ability to learn from their mistakes and each others. He makes a lot of morally grey decisions in early season five which aren't called out too.

I do understand why he's vile towards Wes better now than I do at the time.

On Buffy - the whole I loved you as a fifteen year old is a bit creepy but it's a bit love at first sight retcon and a bit of him carrying forward an attitude in which people women in particular were expected to take on adult roles at younger ages in the past. Teenage is a concept that really started in the 1950s.

I just don't think Angel's is a redemption story - it's more a living with consequences one. I think it's because he didn't choose to become redeamed or accept redemption like Faith did. It's heroic he sacrifices to remain Angel but for some me it's not a redemption story it's something else.

 

[burrunjor]

I don't hate Angel but I'm more ambivalent towards him than many. There are times he makes me want to punch the air, there are times he makes me want to punch him. I guess justifying everything he does as right by some makes me annoyed.

It is textual that Angel isn't perfect and some of his decisions are morally grey buttt for me - I think he could have fought harder for Lindsay's soul. He basically leaves him to probably die in Blind Date for a scroll and yawns during his backstory I'm not woobifying Lindsay here who made some bad choices but if you compare how hard Angel fought for Faith - a punch the air moment - then it shows he didn't care and never really believed in Lindsay. Plus putting cops suckon his car was just petty.

I feel Angel can be petty and vindictive sometimes and his fans don't notice or justify it.

I'm very ambivalent about a lot of Angel's Daddy Knows Best attitude towards people especially Buffy in IWRY and the mind wipe of his friends at the end of season four - on the one hand aultruistic and on the other it robbed people of agency and in the case of his friends the ability to learn from their mistakes and each others. He makes a lot of morally grey decisions in early season five which aren't called out too.

I do understand why he's vile towards Wes better now than I do at the time.

On Buffy - the whole I loved you as a fifteen year old is a bit creepy but it's a bit love at first sight retcon and a bit of him carrying forward an attitude in which people women in particular were expected to take on adult roles at younger ages in the past. Teenage is a concept that really started in the 1950s.

I just don't think Angel's is a redemption story - it's more a living with consequences one. I think it's because he didn't choose to become redeamed or accept redemption like Faith did. It's heroic he sacrifices to remain Angel but for some me it's not a redemption story it's something else.

Yes that's a good point about how his arc might not be seen as a redemption story, as ultimately he gives away his main shot at redemption, being made human again.

He definitely was too hard on Lindsey compared to Faith and Darla (who in contrast to Lindsey saving the children even as a human never showed any desire for redemption,) but to be fair he does mention this in Epiphany. Not saying it justifies it but ti shows that it was the writers acknowledging his bias towards people he had cared about like Faith and Darla.

 

[SpikeRocks]

5) His personality: bounces between absent and bland. The most we get from him, are when he’s being petulant/immature, or when he’s being overly-male and testosterone-y.

To my #5 point, I will add that I do like when his "old man" personality comes out. I find that endearing