Willow was pretty similar to Warren in season 6

[GraceK]

He's still a compassionless villain. Mr Glass orchestrated the deaths of thousands of innocent people in multiple cities. That's high level terrorism. His physical condition sucks but I didn't see Stephen Hawking becoming a mass murderer. There's a whole section on YouTube of inspiring people born with debilitating conditions, none of them crashed planes & derailed trains to find someone with the opposite of their affliction.

Would fans react the way they do about Warren if Tara hadn't of gotten caught in the crossfire?

How would they feel about Faith if the WC goons had raped & murdered Buffy-in-Faith's body (she was sedated & chained up) while Faith was busy using Buffy's body to go clubbing & ride Buffy's boyfriend? If Buffy hadn't of gotten there in time to stop Faith from stabbing Joyce to death? If Angel hadn't of gotten there in time to stop Faith's torture of Wesley and she used the flamethrower on him? If Angel hadn't of gotten there in time to stop Faith from strangling Xander to death? If Angel hadn't of caught the second arrow? If there was no cure for the poison Faith shot Angel with? If Faith had elbowed Cordelia too hard (she is stronger than a vampire) and it smashed her face in? If the Scoobies refused the trade and the Mayor got so angry he told Faith to just slit Willow's throat?

What would've happened if all the Scoobies died in s6? If they were killed by vampires because of the amnesia she caused? Willow tortured Giles to the brink of death, she's lucky he survived. What if that comet had hit Xander & Dawn? If Buffy had died in a hole in the ground from demons Willow created? If Dawn was reverted to Key form and it was irreversible?

Faith chose to change the season *after* she went to the dark side. Warren was killed 7 months after going to the dark side in the same season he began the descent. Faith from s3 jumped off a roof instead of saving the life of the person she shot then woke up the next year and hurt about a dozen more people.

Notice I’m not justifying or making excuses for Mr. Glass. I’m saying point blank that he’s a villain on the scale that Warren wishes he was. Also, Mr. Glass is more interesting. That my point. There IS no comparison between them. Mr Glass is an actual super villain.

You keep mentioning Faith. This thread is not about Faith. At all. Whatever bone you have to pick with Faith and her character progression has nothing to do with this topic. Also, I have already conceded to most of your points.

And to be honest, Warren killing Tara bothers me the least. Unpopular opinion, I know, but it’s the truth. That was pure bad luck and unintentional with absolutely no malice . Warren is just despicable, hands down, and his worst transgression is that he is UNLIKABLE. No one gives a shit about him or wants to see him redeemed, because he doesn’t have one redeeming or sympathetic quality. He’s never remorseful, he’s never nice, he’s not even a good friend. He’s not charming, he’s not fun, he’s just vile. He’s gross and repellent.

Whatever horrible things Willow, Spike , Faith and every other person you keep throwing at this argument to make Warren look somehow better in comparison, what they all have in common is that fans care about their story. From the pilot to the end, we know Willow. We love Willow. We see Faiths fall from grace and her remorse. We see Spike evolution and growth. And there are plenty of fans who hate them anyway. Xander gets more hate in this fandom than almost anyone else and he never did half the shit that everyone else has done.

 

[NeonSlayer]

I think there are a lot of people IRL who would like someone like Warren because of his knowledge of pop culture & technology. Who would commiserate about spending their youth being beat up by bullies, physically attacked at school until he couldn't stop crying. Many would want their own freeze ray, invisibility ray, jet pack, or sex robot. To rob banks, speed up time, etc.

He's not my type of character. That would be Buffy & Gunn (and the Winchesters, Rick Grimes, Elliot Stabler, Jack Shepherd). But I could easily see a tv series with the Trio as the protagonists in a Dr Horrible's Sing Along Blog kind of way. But we saw it from Buffy & the Scoobies perspective.

I wasn't using other characters to justify what he's done. I'm saying what he did wasn't as bad as what they did, that I don't think it should matter if you feel bad while raping & torturing & murdering people. If someone purposely ran over my dog because they were sad their grandma died, I wouldn't have sympathy for them. My dog would still be dead because of their actions and there's nothing they could do to undo my dog being a smear on the street. If they begged or promised never to do it again, I wouldn't care because it didn't stop them from running over my dog.

People hate Xander because in personality they think he's a lot like Warren. A Reddit using Nice Guy.

 

[GraceK]

People hate Xander because in personality they think he's a lot like Warren. A Reddit using Nice Guy.

And they are wrong because that is completely not true.

d, that I don't think it should matter if you feel bad while raping & torturing & murdering people.

Except that it does matter. Having empathy and feeling remorse is what separates sociopaths and psychopaths from regular people. It’s what separates human beings from monsters.

I think there are a lot of people IRL who would like someone like Warren because of his knowledge of pop culture & technology. Who would commiserate about spending their youth being beat up by bullies, physically attacked at school until he couldn't stop crying. Many would want their own freeze ray, invisibility ray, jet pack, or sex robot. To rob banks, speed up time, etc.

Again, context matters. All of that seems pretty cool when you leave out the gang rape, mindcontrol, and murder. Also, spare me Warrens sob story. He had a beautiful girlfriend who appreciated all of those things about him. Who on his first introduction he told to shut up and wait in the kitchen. If he had been willing to work on his issues and grow up Katrina might have forgiven him in the future. But he didn’t because once again, he had no REMORSE for anything he did. His sex robot he programmed to think crying was blackmail and to be electrocuted if she didn’t answer. I’m over this discussion. I feel like I’m on a reddit thread for MRA.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

It feels unfair to hold it against him that Warren isn't the same fun kind of evil as ... say ... Glory is, because Glory is just an remorsefully evil as Warren.

And to be honest, Warren killing Tara bothers me the least. Unpopular opinion, I know, but it’s the truth. That was pure bad luck and unintentional with absolutely no malice

But if Warren had not hit Tara, then Tara would presumable have stopped Willow from using the black arts to save Buffy, and then Warren would be responsible for Buffy's death. Also, I don't think Warren can blame Tara's death on bad luck when he is firing wildly in a crowded neighbourhood.

If someone purposely ran over my dog because they were sad their grandma died, I wouldn't have sympathy for them.

And if Willow had started killing people's pets because her grandma died, I might not have been a Willow-fan. Willow is an animal lover.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

@NeonSlayer Bambi is not a real fawn. It is some kind of celestial spirit with magic blood she needs to resurrect Buffy.

 

[NeonSlayer]

And they are wrong because that is completely not true.

Except that it does matter. Having empathy and feeling remorse is what separates sociopaths and psychopaths from regular people. It’s what separates human beings from monsters.

Again, context matters. All of that seems pretty cool when you leave out the gang rape, mindcontrol, and murder. Also, spare me Warrens sob story. He had a beautiful girlfriend who appreciated all of those things about him. Who on his first introduction he told to shut up and wait in the kitchen. If he had been willing to work on his issues and grow up Katrina might have forgiven him in the future. But he didn’t because once again, he had no REMORSE for anything he did. His sex robot he programmed to think crying was blackmail and to be electrocuted if she didn’t answer. I’m over this discussion. I feel like I’m on a reddit thread for MRA.

I certainly wasn't crying over him. I'm saying some people, like Reddit users and fans of The Big Bang Theory would relate to him so he is likable to certain people.

We have a very different notion on what makes someone a monster. I think NOT raping, torturing, & murdering people separates humans from monsters. I don't care if rapists & serial killers feel guilty. It didn't stop them from raping & murdering people. Their empathy & remorse didn't stop them from brutalizing others. If Jeffrey Dahmer had a change of heart in prison, who cares? He was still a rapist cannibal killer. There were retired Nazis who led quiet lives in South America, some turning over a new leaf and helping those around them. I would've still wanted them to suffer like their victims from the Holocaust. If you rape or murder people, you're a monster. Their actions spoke louder than anything they felt.

You know what reminded me of Warren telling Katrina to shut up?

Tara: What do you want me to do, just sit back and keep my mouth shut?
Willow: That'd be a good start.

We started Willow's journey in s1 when she was a powerless bullied high schooler. But it could've easily started in s6 and we wouldn't think of her in quite the same way.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

We have a very different notion on what makes someone a monster. I think NOT raping, torturing, & murdering people separates humans from monsters. I don't care if rapists & serial killers feel guilty. It didn't stop them from raping & murdering people. Their empathy & remorse didn't stop them from brutalizing others. If Jeffrey Dahmer had a change of heart in prison, who cares? He was still a rapist cannibal killer. There were retired Nazis who led quiet lives in South America, some turning over a new leaf and helping those around them. I would've still wanted them to suffer like their victims from the Holocaust. If you rape or murder people, you're a monster. Their actions spoke louder than anything they felt.

This is an attractive argument, but it has some problematic implications. Adolf Hitler was an extremely popular leader. Were all Germans monsters? The voters, the enablers, the parents who proudly sent their young sons to war, the people who worked in the industry that fed the war machine, the people who drove the train that transported the Jews, people who ratted out their neighbours, etc?

The world would not work without forgiveness. There are so many conflict were people kill each other and justify it by vilifying the other side. Not everyone who does something bad is a complete monster, and all of us are complicit in terrible crimes, just by being consumers in a society built on exploitation and members of democracies who commit war crimes.

 

[NeonSlayer]

This is an attractive argument, but it has some problematic implications. Adolf Hitler was an extremely popular leader. Were all Germans monsters? The voters, the enablers, the parents who proudly sent their young sons to war, the people who worked in the industry that fed the war machine, the people who drove the train that transported the Jews, people who ratted out their neighbours, etc?

The world would not work without forgiveness. There are so many conflict were people kill each other and justify it by vilifying the other side. Not everyone who does something bad is a complete monster, and all of us are complicit in terrible crimes, just by being consumers in a society built on exploitation and members of democracies who commit war crimes.

I get what you're saying. It becomes murky when large parts of society greenlight the brutalization. Such as slavery. Once it was made illegal the slave owners didn't go to jail even though they kidnapped, held prisoner, beat, raped, & killed scores of Africans & Native Americans.

And now the US has neo Nazi KKK rallies & a POTUS who incites his followers to hate crimes.

But the women in my family were raised to forgive. And it led to still treating their RAPISTS with respect, shopping for them, cooking for them, helping them fill out paperwork, etc. There were times accused rapists were invited to stay at our house and my parents would tell me not to wear certain clothes, they noticed him staring, and they'd put a lock on my bedroom door just in case. I had to put a movie in and give one of my blankets to the pedophile that raped my mom & a half dozen other family members.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

But the women in my family were raised to forgive. And it led to still treating their RAPISTS with respect, shopping for them, cooking for them, helping them fill out paperwork, etc. There were times accused rapists were invited to stay at our house and my parents would tell me not wear certain clothes, they noticed him staring, and they'd put a lock on my bedroom door just in case. I had to put a movie in and give one of my blankets to the pedophile that raped my mom & a half dozen other family members.

That sounds truly horrible. So many families have a "pervy uncle" who everyone try to subtly steer away from the younger women at family gatherings. I don't think we should be lenient with rapists at all ... or with violent people, but we need to acknowledge that there are degrees of depravity. The reason many rapist and abusers go free is that many people imagine that only a true monster could ever rape or hurt someone, so the nice teacher and the doting father must be innocent.

And Willow erased Tara's mind, which does create an issue of consent, but I don't think people in the real world who hide facts from their girlfriends or boyfriends that may have caused them to break off the relationship deserve to be equated with violent rapist and paedophiles. What Willow does is serious, but there are degrees, and she is not a monster.

 

[thetopher]

If everything had gone exactly according to plan, then Warren would still be taking a risk by letting Katrina go.

I'm not sure he would've let her go. He might've kept her indefinably. He might've been the next Joseph Fritzel with a creepy dungeon for all we know.

But we don't know. Making moral judgements based on mere assumptions is always going to be faulty. You or I or anyone don't know what Warren would've done if his creepy plan was successful. Therefore it was no cold-blooded murder because there is no evidence of intent. If Katrina had show signs of knowing what the hell was going on when she came around (which would be an extra level of creep) then your theory would have more foundation.

Also, there comes a point where excuses won't do. In Five by Five, if Wesley had suffocated on his gag and nose blood or if Faith had cut an artery with that massive piece of glass, it wouldn't matter if it was intentional or not. It would still be cold blooded murderer.

You would be right that Faith caused Wesley's death- although its worth noting that she knew enough to cut him whilst keeping him alive and conscious- however it is about intent.
Faith's intent was to punish/payback Wesley so death would've fitting with that. Warren did not want Katrina dead he wanted her to be his. Intent matters in terms of crime and morality. It's why we have different crimes such as 'attempted murder' and 'criminal assault'.

Anyway, this is off-topic. Suffice to say that the similarities regarding some of Warren and Willow's motivations and intent (fear of loss of control, untargeted rage/vengeance) seem very deliberate rather than superficial. One could say that Warren is a distorted mirror or 'shadow self' of Willow. I think there's a debate to be had there.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Making moral judgements based on mere assumptions is always going to be faulty.

It is not an assumption. Warren does kill Katrina. He kills Katrina because she might go to the police. My point is that it wasn't something that just happened. Once Warren abducts Katrina, he should know he would have to make a choice of what to do when she wakes up. All evidence suggest Warren would attack Katrina if she tried to escape, and if he kept her locked up until she died of malnutrition or disease, then that would be murder, too.

deliberate rather than superficial

Superficial is not the opposite of deliberate.

 

[Altoz]

Buffy was in just as dark a place during Season 6. It could easily have been her that flew off the handle at the end of Season 6 and had to be restored to the light. I can see why Dark Willow happened, given the character's addiction to darkmagick and Tara's murder at the hands of Warren Meers. Hell, if someone killed my husband and I was a powered up wiccan like Dark Willow was, I might have taken out my revenge on the perpetrator. Which doesn't justify her doing it, but I can understand Dark Willow being in that dark a space.

 

[Altoz]

Say Buffy also lost Spike as well as Xander. Granted, she'd broken up with him by then, but if darkmagick is Willow's addiction, Spike could be said to be analogously addictive for Buffy. Suddenly, Spike is staked. How does Buffy react?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Warren wouldn't mess with Spike. Just look how quick he folded when Spike made him look at the chip.

 

[Puppet]

I just don't think it's a part of Buffy's 'makeup' to go dark. When faced with emotional distress, her reaction is to shut down, like in Weight of the World. Or her response to Angelus back in S2, which is an inability to harm him, even after Jenny is killed. I find it OOC for canon-Buffy to go dark, even if we're talking about Dawn being hurt.

 

[Altoz]

Arguably. Buffy hardened during the course of the series. Ultimately, she did kill Angelus, ironically just as Willow mastered the Kalderash spell and returned his soul to him. Yes, that did devastate her, enough for her to leave Sunnydale. After her resurrection at the beginning of Season 6, she seemed lost for a while, hence the inappropriate relationship with Spike. However, she cut it off with him and then, in Season 7, she reacts to a whole string of events- the destruction of the Watchers Council, the battle against the First Evil, and the arrival of the Potentials consummately. She is curt when confronted with a Potential's suicide, and frustrated at the uncertain status of her assets, and doesn't shed a tear when she loses Spike at the end of Chosen. Is hardness akin to darkness? As the case of Faith shows, it's easy to cross over. You might argue 'yeah, but that was Faith," but how do we know that Faith was the first slayer that happened to?

 

[Puppet]

I never said she didn't harden, but I don't see her growing dark, in the sense of being 'evil' and dangerous to the good guys. The closest she ever actually came to it was while under the effects of a demonic virus (Normal Again).

 

[DeadlyDuo]

You might argue 'yeah, but that was Faith," but how do we know that Faith was the first slayer that happened to?

Giles said that accidental killings by slayers weren't unusual. Also, given that the Watchers had a special team sent to capture Faith, chances are she's not the first slayer to go "dark". The watchers probably kill them off quite quickly though so they can get a new slayer.

Also Sunday was originally supposed to be a former slayer who was killed and sired, hence why Buffy struggled in the first fight against her.

I never said she didn't harden, but I don't see her growing dark, in the sense of being 'evil' and dangerous to the good guys. The closest she ever actually came to it was while under the effects of a demonic virus (Normal Again).

Also when Kathy was stealing her soul. Buffy wasn't a threat to the scoobies or other civilians but she was growing more homicidal towards Kathy much to the concern of the scoobies who thought Kathy was normal. If Buffy was in her right mind, then she's quite amenable to all those not posing a threat of some form.

 

[thrasherpix]

Wishverse Buffy was cold, blunt to the point of rude, and hard, and yet even she wasn't ruthless or a danger to general society.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I think the closest Buffy comes to going Darth Rosenberg is "Graduation." If the Scoobies had tried to stop her from harming Faith or harming herself to save Angel, it could have gotten ugly. But Buffy wouldn't be able to absorb the kind of dark juice that turns Willow crazy, nor would she need to, as she is already stronger than everyone else. Therefore, it would still be possible to reason with her.