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Willow was pretty similar to Warren in season 6

katmobile

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I actually think Dark Willow is WAY worse than Warren and her rage against him was completely hypocritical. He killed Tara BY ACCIDENT and she set out to kill Jonathan and Andrew who had even less to do with it. They weren't quite innocents but certainly didn't deserve to die. Warren was a mortal, non-powered human and both of the women he killed were killed by "natural" means and without forethought. This is not to let him off the hook for what he did because he did wrong but the worst any of The Trio deserved is an ass-kicking courtesy of Buffy and some prison time.
No way and I'm sorry accidental killing as a consequence of a deliberate attempt on someone else's life isn't like he just punched a guy in a bar who fell over and hit his head on a table killing him. Dark Willow pretty much treats that excuse with the contempt it deserves.

Warren would be convicted of second degree murder in the case of Tara and attempted murder in the case of Buffy.

I do agree that trying to Jonathan and Andrew was much worse though.
 

katmobile

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I think there are a lot of people IRL who would like someone like Warren because of his knowledge of pop culture & technology. Who would commiserate about spending their youth being beat up by bullies, physically attacked at school until he couldn't stop crying. Many would want their own freeze ray, invisibility ray, jet pack, or sex robot. To rob banks, speed up time, etc.

He's not my type of character. That would be Buffy & Gunn (and the Winchesters, Rick Grimes, Elliot Stabler, Jack Shepherd). But I could easily see a tv series with the Trio as the protagonists in a Dr Horrible's Sing Along Blog kind of way. But we saw it from Buffy & the Scoobies perspective.

I wasn't using other characters to justify what he's done. I'm saying what he did wasn't as bad as what they did, that I don't think it should matter if you feel bad while raping & torturing & murdering people. If someone purposely ran over my dog because they were sad their grandma died, I wouldn't have sympathy for them. My dog would still be dead because of their actions and there's nothing they could do to undo my dog being a smear on the street. If they begged or promised never to do it again, I wouldn't care because it didn't stop them from running over my dog.

People hate Xander because in personality they think he's a lot like Warren. A Reddit using Nice Guy.
Buffy forgives most of those guys and trusts them because she knows they're sorry. Faith is harder for her because she gave Faith chances which Faith blew and because Faith is kinda a rival and a shadow self but she does forgive her. But they get because Buffy knows they're sorry and sees their remorse - Warren has none. Trust me I get Warren's need to be someone, to prove his bullies wrong and get his own back especially if he's smarter than them BUT.... he doesn't care about anyone or anything else. Faith does and wants so desperately to be loved and on some level just doesn't feel worthy, The mayor gives it to her but it's condition, manipulative and toxic. Spike is a hopeless romantic who embraces life or unlife with gusto. Willow's bad actions come from her insecurities about herself and the scary changeable world. Its the craving of these characters for love and acceptance that leads them back. Warren doesn't have that he's ultimately callous completely towards everyone. Faith wants to help people and goes to prison to save the man who did help her. Spike is redeamed by caring for someone else more than himself. Willow is redeamed because she befriended and loved a kid no one else cared for as a child and that love stopped him becoming a monster like his father like Warren. Warren never seemed care about anyone else.

There's a profound quote from a philosopher at the start of Passion of the Nerd's review of Five by Five saying that although there's misfortune in not being loved, nothing is worse than not loving as it will destroy you and shrivel you up - Warren is that unfortunate soul and that's what doesn't just destroy him but means he's ultimately unwept and unhonoured. Spike dies on fire because of what he believes to be right and is resurrected, Warren dies on fire because of another's vengeance and ultimately stays dead.
 

garfan

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I think it was entirely appropriate to go after Jonathan and Andrew cause they helped put Warren in the position he was in when he killed Tara
 

katmobile

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I think it was entirely appropriate to go after Jonathan and Andrew cause they helped put Warren in the position he was in when he killed Tara
I profoundly disagree especially Jonathan who helped defeat him by giving Buffy the key to do so. He deserves to go to prison for his part in the robberies and for helping to conceal Katrina's murder but he doesn't deserve to die and it actually annoys me that Buffy blows him off when he offers to help in Two to Go.

I completely agree with @RachM's post. Warren was the foil for Willow, his S6 journey paralleled hers quite closely.
Willow killing him was totally wrong not only because his actions mirror hers to an uncomfortable degree. but also because in the aftermath she gets the 'redemption' (in fact the easiest redemption on the entire show) and he gets flayed alive with no possibility of learning anything from his abuses of power. Vengeance is bad m'kay.

I don't see that Warren was sympathetic, but that's mainly because in the writing he lacked depth, but I don't discount the fact that he could've been redeemed in the future.

I would also point out that Willow's magical abuses started well before S6, a few years before in fact, and yet everyone close to her chose to ignore the danger signs, so that by 'Wrecked' everyone looks incredibly blinkered after Tara straight up flees in fear of her mind.
I think Warren is a dark mirror of everyone including the entity he ought to have better than by rights. A line in the film Insomnia comes to mind crossed the line and didn't even blink - everyone else when they crossed lines or got close to it blinked and pulled back. Xander says about his wedding all Anya's friends are demons his family are monsters - a monster is something that chooses to be one and has the potential to change but never does. If a demon can regret attempted rape and attempt to reform but a man murders instead which is actually the monster. Warren was not redeamable - he should have gone to prison and stayed there for the rest of his life though but I can understand why Warren flayed him. Also I think we despise the most those who we see our own flaws in.

Xander tried to murder someone for having consenting sex with his ex I think we can understand why Willow snapped when Warren killed someone she loved.

I don't think anyone here is really defending Warren, just pointing out the double standards.

Andrew & Jonathan were also going to gang rape Katrina yet fans love both of them. Andrew even getting to be a Scooby, a freakin Watcher in charge of 20 Slayers, and one of the main characters that survives to the end of the franchise.

Marcus from AtS s3 was going to have lots of sex & commit murders in Angel's body without consent while Angel was going to be forced to die of old age. He wasn't tortured to death and accused of being the biggest piece of shit.

Faith committed rape by fraud when she tricked Riley into making love to her as well as *raping* Buffy when she had sex with Buffy's body & fondled her in the bathtub without Buffy's consent. Fans felt worse in that episode for Faith than they did Buffy who was falsely arrested for murder, strapped to a gurney, injected with sedatives, kidnapped by 3 men, chained in the back of a van, spit on the face, nearly executed, and viciously attacked. When she confronted Faith a few months later fans called Buffy a self righteous bitch.

Yeah, Warren came to the house to murder Buffy. Willow tried to murder Buffy just 2 days after that. She zapped her with mystical energy and created demons to attack her. "I was the one who took you from the earth and now the earth wants you back."

Yeah Warren did horrible things to Buffy all season. Because she's the Slayer. That's actually a better reason than Faith hurting her out of jealousy and Willow hurting her out of grief.
Andrew and Jonathan - Jonathan realises Katrina was right and feels guilt for what happened. I think the only reason he doesn't do something earlier is he's scared of Buffy, of Warren and of prison. He isn't a hero but he isn't a villian either but someone who's need for company and validation leads them down bad paths. He'd have found his way with the right friends to encourage him and we see signs in season seven that he cares about people even knowing that it probably isn't returned.

Andrew is an infactuated accomplaince but he's kinda divorced from the consequences of his actions and those he cosigns. It's significant when he murders he's possessed but he does the set up of his own free will. Once faced with the real consequences in Showtime his remorse is immediate and geunine that's what his tears represent. Buffy is right he isn't evil he just picks up it's flavour if he's surrounded by it with Storyteller we see he's willing to own that and try to change and with season five of Angel he's acquired some agency and a moral code he'll follow. Andrew gets it wrong a lot but he tries and he's got a conscience that keeps him trying.

Marcus is a scumbag and we see him have a heart attack which will probably kill or permanently delibitate him. Why kill or jail someone who will die soon anyway.

Faith becomes suicidal after the acts you describe, she is saved and then atones by going to prison. She only escapes to help the man who helped her. I understand Buffy but we're in Faith and Angel's POV they know she was crying and begging for death Buffy doesn't. Angel knows and understands both the temptation and remorse in a way she can't.

Everyone else makes some effort to atone Anya accepts the price as her life and soul Spike risks his life and endures torture to do so.

Had Warren shown any real remorse or active atonement some fans would have embraced that but he doesn't.
 

garfan

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I profoundly disagree especially Jonathan who helped defeat him by giving Buffy the key to do so. He deserves to go to prison for his part in the robberies and for helping to conceal Katrina's murder but he doesn't deserve to die and it actually annoys me that Buffy blows him off when he offers to help in Two to Go.
Warren wouldn't have had the orbs if not for Jonathan, he undid something he helped cause
 

AlphaFoxtrot

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Yeah, Jonathan was a penitent sinner, he had seen the error of his ways, and was trying to take corrective action. Andrew was not. But it wasn't about them, this is about Willow going mad with rage and dark magic, and convincing us, the audience that Buffy may have to sanction Wil. Which I thought it did well, say what you want about season 6, the finale arc was the best of the college years.
 

garfan

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But he did undo it and by then causation was the result of cohersion.
Yeah, Jonathan was a penitent sinner, he had seen the error of his ways, and was trying to take corrective action. Andrew was not. But it wasn't about them, this is about Willow going mad with rage and dark magic, and convincing us, the audience that Buffy may have to sanction Wil. Which I thought it did well, say what you want about season 6, the finale arc was the best of the college years.
You know Jonathan was only in jail cause he didn't get a jetpack. He took corrective action because it was right in front of him, but he would have run if given the chance. He even whined that he didn't get one

And as for penance, well forgiveness is up to the people you wronged.

I hated the finale arc, betrayal and random deaths were the worst of Joss' work and that's all that this is
 
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