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Question Would Angel have killed Connor?

Would Angel have killed Connor?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • No

    Votes: 9 60.0%
  • Is everybody here very stoned?

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Total voters
    15

MarlieTheSlayer

Bangel shipper
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Sunnydale
Black Thorn
So I was reading some reviews and while reading one about the first episode "Deep Down", the following section got my attention:

''But there are limits to his moral triumph. The fact that he could even consider killing his son is a disturbing turn for him. What I find most revealing about the way he confronted Connor at the end is that he put the point of no return squarely before Cordelia, rather than some principle or general course of action. Had Connor admitted wrong-doing towards her, I have no doubt Angel would have killed him.''

Do you agree with the author? Do you also believe Angel would have killed his own son if he was involved with Cordelia disappearance?
 

Antho

Scooby
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No, I do not think so at all. Angel knows the meaning of the word sacrifice, he did things for the good of the world, he also suffered a lot, but killing Connor is not something he would do just out of revenge. I do not see him acting like that for these reasons! Even at the end of Season 4 when Connor is more distraught than ever, Angel refuses to sacrifice him, he prefers to sacrifice himself by fading away from his son's life to allow him to have a better life. So no I do not believe for a second that Angel could kill his son, he would probably prefer to kill himself.
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Yes, this exactly!

thrasherpix

Scooby
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I see the author as more or less correct here (not necessarily as extreme as killing, but possible--he was too weak to do anything right then, however), and it's pretty typical of Joss writing. Love makes people do the wacky, including abandon all their moral and ethical qualms.

It's not even all bad. I actually love where Giles responds to the Mayor saying he's going to eat Buffy by running him through with a sword right there, though granted it would be a lot more gray if the Mayor was still wholly human. But as long as love (especially romantic love, but not limited to that) is involved, then yes, killing is possible. Hell, Angel almost killed Wesley over Connor being lost to a Hell dimension, what would've he done if Cordelia got sent to the same dimension by Connor?

(Not voting yet, I want to mull it over a bit more and look at that link first.)
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
I'm not even sure where the author is coming from. Yes Angel was very serious about questioning Connor about Cordelia. But even if Connor knew where she was, Angel would have handled things exactly the same, except with a lead. One of the last things Angel says to Connor before kicking him out is "I love you." There is no question that Angel's state of mind is pure disappointment and in no way vengeful. He hated what Connor did to him, but, despite it being pure torture, I have no doubt that Angel still had Connor's interests above his own. He knew he needed to put him in his place, but he had no intention of physically fighting for it. Add to all of this the fact that Angel is actually following him around and keeping tabs on him in the next episode and you come to the obvious conclusion that Angel is coming from a mindset of care and concern.
 

thrasherpix

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Angel says and does that AFTER he's convinced Connor didn't kill or otherwise doom Cordelia (probably for being a half-demon). It's an open question what words and actions would still be the same had Connor killed Cordelia.
 

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
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Sineya
Angel says and does that AFTER he's convinced Connor didn't kill or otherwise doom Cordelia (probably for being a half-demon). It's an open question what words and actions would still be the same had Connor killed Cordelia.
Of course it's an open question. But I'm convinced it would have been the same. Think of what Angel did when Connor did try to kill Cordy. It wasn't pretty, but it 100% was still with Connor's best interests at heart.
 

NileQT87

Billowy Coat, King of Pain
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No, this reviewer doesn't understand Angel at all. Yet another Angel-hating 'fan' predisposed to thinking of the character in the worst possible light to the point where they don't know what is in or out of character.

Angel is disappointed in Connor, sure, but he blames himself more. He gives Connor a million chances because 1) he's the only son he'll ever have, 2) he doesn't blame Connor for how he was raised in a hell dimension and sympathizes with the fact that he has no understanding of how the world works, 3) he blames himself for both what Angelus did to Holtz and not protecting Connor as a baby.

Angel would only ever consider hurting Connor (in a permanent way, not to give him a do-over with a new identity) would be if Connor was directly threatening someone at that very moment and he had to be stopped. But even then, Angel would look for a way to avoid permanent harm. He's willing to bloody him up to allow, for example, the Fang Gang to escape Jasmine, but Angel did that knowing perfectly well that there was no permanent injury and he has superpower durability stats. Even though Connor was directly threatening all of them, Angel only stopped him long enough for a momentary escape. However, if he was left with no choice and Connor was threatening a loved one, he'd probably injure him or even 'kill' him to prevent sure death of another.

Home had such an incident where Connor was threatening to blow up comatose Cordy with a room full of hostages. The line in Deep Down is all about foreshadowing the scene in Home (which further makes the reviewer's assertion bogus). And yet, Angel still managed to find a way to 'kill' his son that actually gave Connor a fresh start at life where he could understand the world.

Angel still didn't blame Connor for anything, though. He vacillated between blaming himself for being unable to protect Connor as a baby and what Holtz did to him; a train of thought which usually went right back to blaming himself for what Angelus did to Holtz. That's why Angel couldn't even blame Holtz properly in Benediction for what happened to Connor; he went right back to blaming himself.

Angel's comment in Not Fade Away says it all: no one can truly hurt him as long as Connor is safe.
 
MarlieTheSlayer
MarlieTheSlayer
''no one can truly hurt him as long as Connor is safe.'' - beautiful

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
I voted is everyone here stoned because this is a crazy loco proposition that I never considered. Angel loves Connor above everyone else in his life. He has only told two people in his life he loves them in his 250 years, and Connor was one of two people and the most important person in his life.

Love may make you do the wacky but the person Angel loves most in his life at this juncture is Connor. Sure he is worried about his friend but no, no absolutely not Angel would not kill Connor. It’s bonkers. It’s bananas.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
"When Angel forgives Connor, it’s a reminder of why he’s the 'champion.' Throughout the series Angel probably experiences more pain most other characters in the Whedonverse put together. He lost Buffy, spent eternity in hell, lost her again, moved to LA, started a new life, and lost again: Doyle, Darla, Connor, Cordelia. Here’s a guy for whom living must be a daily chore, and yet he soldiers on. His ultimate realization is that the world is harsh and irredeemably cruel no matter what he does; the value of champions then, is in setting an example for others by embodying the mere possibility of a better world. He forgives Connor merely to live up to that example, even in spite of the violent impulses deep inside of him."

I dunno, sounds like the reviewer understands Angel pretty well, in my opinion. I think the problem with these 'modern' reviews is that they are reviewing the episode with full knowledge of whats coming. He even mentions the season finale when they agree to go to work for Wolfram & Hart. In my opinion the reviewer mentioned the Angel killing Connor line to strengthen his position further in the review that that season was no longer about 'doing right' but protecting his family.
 

Puppet

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Yes, much like @dcai0830 I voted the third option, because I find it ludicrous to even consider, especially at this point. Angel is far from perfect, like everyone else, but kill his own son? And for Cordelia? Was this written by a Cangel shipper? (no offense to other Cangel shippers). There is no one in the world, imo, that Angel would kill Connor for, not Cordelia, not Buffy, not anyone, and no one will ever convince me otherwise. Angel loves Connor more than anything, and he has already done and sacrificed so much for the safety, security and happiness of his child (even if I don't agree with his actions, I'm aware that his intentions weren't evil.)
 
Antho
Antho
Right ! Completely !

EarthLogic

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Black Thorn
No, this reviewer doesn't understand Angel at all. Yet another Angel-hating 'fan' predisposed to thinking of the character in the worst possible light to the point where they don't know what is in or out of character.
I'm not sure you can say the reviewer is an 'Angel-hater'. I've read some of his S1-2 reviews and his analysis is often quite interesting and not what I'd call 'bashy' or 'hatey' but I'd have to read his reviews from end of S3 - S4 first to get a fuller idea of his POV on the character arcs at that point. However I do think his reading here is off. I can see how the shape of immediate events would lead him to that conclusion- in that episode Angel hallucinates about killing Connor, then says 'I should have killed you' to Wesley while thinking he is Connor - but IMO he fails to consider Angel's character as a whole. Yes he has violent impulses in him, which are obviously exacerbated by being starved at the bottom of the ocean and nearly losing his mind, but his action speak louder: face to face with his son there is only the hurt and anger that comes from being betrayed by someone he loves, so no I don't believe he would have killed Connor. If Connor had done something to Cordy Angel would have been scary-harsh - though how, I don't know, but I don't believe he would have killed him.
 
Antho
Antho
I agree with you :)
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Preach!

white avenger

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If Angel was faced with what he considered to be a sufficiently dire circumstance, where the only possible choice would be killing Connor and saving the world, or saving Connor and letting the world be destroyed, he would do exactly the same thing that Buffy did to him at the end of Season 2. If for some reason, the only way to save Connor would be to sacrifice his own life, the way that Buffy did for Dawn in Season 5, he would do that. Angel loves Connor. He is his miracle child. But above and beyond all else, with all of his faults and shortcomings, Angel is every bit the Champion, and he will always do what the Champion should do. To say that he would do anything other than that only belittles the character.
 

EarthLogic

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If Angel was faced with what he considered to be a sufficiently dire circumstance, where the only possible choice would be killing Connor and saving the world, or saving Connor and letting the world be destroyed, he would do exactly the same thing that Buffy did to him at the end of Season 2. If for some reason, the only way to save Connor would be to sacrifice his own life, the way that Buffy did for Dawn in Season 5, he would do that. Angel loves Connor. He is his miracle child. But above and beyond all else, with all of his faults and shortcomings, Angel is every bit the Champion, and he will always do what the Champion should do. To say that he would do anything other than that only belittles the character.
If faced with the choice of Connor vs the world/rest of humanity then yes he probably would do what Buffy did: find another way/sacrifice himself/or sacrifice Connor as a very last resort. But the reviewer implied that he would have killed Connor just in response to finding out that the kid had done something to Cordelia, which I think is ridiculous.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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If Angel was faced with what he considered to be a sufficiently dire circumstance, where the only possible choice would be killing Connor and saving the world, or saving Connor and letting the world be destroyed, he would do exactly the same thing that Buffy did to him at the end of Season 2. If for some reason, the only way to save Connor would be to sacrifice his own life, the way that Buffy did for Dawn in Season 5, he would do that. Angel loves Connor. He is his miracle child. But above and beyond all else, with all of his faults and shortcomings, Angel is every bit the Champion, and he will always do what the Champion should do. To say that he would do anything other than that only belittles the character.

I agree with you on this. But that is not the point made by the reviewer. The reviewer posits that Angel would kill Connor for what he believes he may have done to Cordelia. Not because the world was at stake. Different scenario.
 
And @EarthLogic basically beat me to it...lol
 

Spanky

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Didn't Angel kill Connor at the end of Home? It wasn't even to save the world or humanity.
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Didn't Angel kill Connor at the end of Home? It wasn't even to save the world or humanity.

I’m not clear on whether he killed him or just stabbed him because of the way the scene is done. But if he killed him it was so he could live a better life. Obviously Connor was still alive and well and he knew he would be.
 

Spanky

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I’m not clear on whether he killed him or just stabbed him because of the way the scene is done. But if he killed him it was so he could live a better life.
For a long time I had massive arguments that Angel never killed him because hello! he's alive but "everyone" was all like "sure he did" so I finally I'm like whatever (as I am typing this I am thinking it would have played out better as one of those gif messages) so I just assumed everyone figured he killed him nowadays.... anyway... point being:

It would have be an interesting way to frame the season if he in fact did kill Connor, when you can look at it a large part of why he had to kill Connor was due to his being forced out of the hotel in the episode in question. The two episodes would really bookend one another quite well. Even moreso when you take the notion (right or wrong) he was "close" to killing Connor in the first episode, and Angel's own actions forced him to kill him in the finale.
 

EarthLogic

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I’m not clear on whether he killed him or just stabbed him because of the way the scene is done. But if he killed him it was so he could live a better life. Obviously Connor was still alive and well and he knew he would be.
Angel makes a slashing motion just as the scene dissolves so it's not clear whether he actually killed him. Certainly would have drawn blood though - I guess the time shift/mind wipe ritual required the drawing of blood (as usual!)

The two episodes would really bookend one another quite well. Even moreso when you take the notion (right or wrong) he was "close" to killing Connor in the first episodes, and Angel's own actions forced him to kill him in the finale.
Nice point. They do mirror each other well. In fact the beginning and end of S4 is pretty good when you think about it. It's just that horrible middle...ugh!
 

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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For a long time I had massive arguments that Angel never killed him because hello! he's alive but "everyone" was all like "sure he did" so I finally I'm like whatever

You should never give in. That was your first mistake.
 
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