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Question Would Buffy have had an affair with Spike if she hadn't died, not been through resurrection & depression/trauma?

Punkie

Townie
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
44
I don’t agree that there was Chemistry from the get-go.

Spike had a sick obsession. Buffy was just having empty sex. The young women who fall into that vicious cycle will spend years or decades trying to end it. They never know why they do it. Been going on since Christ lost his shoe. Therapists make a fortune off of it. :)
 

TriBel

Scooby
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
3,518
Location
Manchester
The young women who fall into that vicious cycle will spend years or decades trying to end it.
That's a telling phrase. Can the same be said of men? The sex seemed just as empty for Spike - that was his problem. It wasn't that he (initially) desired sex with Buffy (he wasn't the first to initiate it). What he desired was "the desire of the other" and desire of the other is a desire for social acknowledgement - a recognition that you're subject not object...not a "dead THING". He seemed to be getting this as one of the Scoobies until Buffy's return then they dropped him like a hot potato.
They never know why they do it.
Might be true in real life (though I'd question it) but this is a text. Personally, it's fairly clear to me what her predicament was.
Been going on since Christ lost his shoe.
Has it? I'd dispute that. I'd say that for a long time there's been a pleasure gap between men and women because "good" girls, "proper" women didn't "enjoy" sex. The fact that marital rape wasn't illegal until 1992 in the UK suggests different standards for men and women, different entitlements and little concern for women's enjoyment. Traditionally, women's identity has been polarized Virgin/Mother - Whore. The Virgin hasn't had sex. She's waiting for someone to "take" her virginity (another telling phrase. Why is virginity so valued? Why is it "taken" or "lost"?). For the mother sex = procreation not enjoyment. Only the whore "enjoys". Sweeping stereotypes but they still exist. It's really not coincidence that Buffy is seen getting satisfaction from non-vanilla, non-missionary, non-procreative sex (whore) and the text is peppered with references to the Madonna (most obviously in S7) who encodes the impossible Virgin and Mother. Nor is it coincidence that the last conversation she has with Joyce is about sex. It's important because it acknowledges the mother as someone with a life independent of the child - as someone who can enjoy in a way that's not related to the child. That Buffy herself acknowledges this is an important milestone.

In fact, I think this is her predicament. Sex with a vampire threatens her identity as a Vampire Slayer. Enjoying non-vanilla sex with the vampire is a threat to her identity as a "good" girl. Bottomline: what she deems as "selfish" behaviour threatens to leave her "self-less".

Besides, how do we know what women enjoyed? Where's the history of women writing about it? "Samuel Pepys’s diary (1660–69) is notorious for its liberal accounts of his sexual liaisons with women across London. Despite his marriage to Elizabeth St Michel (from 1655), Pepys had regular mistresses and engaged in casual affairs with servants, barmaids and companions alongside the wives, daughters and mothers of friends and colleagues. He flirted with, fondled or slept with Mrs Lane, Mrs Martin, Mrs Tooker, Mrs Burrows, Mrs Pennington, Betty Michell and Elizabeth Knepp in their homes, the backrooms of taverns, in carriages, in theatre stalls and even church pews."

Where's Elisabeth Pepys Diary? What did she think? Did Betty Middleton and Mrs Pennington enjoy their encounters?
Therapists make a fortune off of it
That might be true of private practice but not if they work for the NHS. 😏
 
P
Punkie
Honestly, you sound like a college kid regurgitating all the stuff that you were taught.

Bored now.

BuffyNvrForgets

Slayerette
Joined
Aug 10, 2021
Messages
152
No. She states herself it’s because of her depression and apathy she just used him to feel something. I personally feel he also manipulated the situation, constantly telling her that her friends won’t ever understand or accept her again, and that she is dark, and wrong now. That he is the only one she can come too. I feel if he hadn’t done that she might not have ether.
 

spikeverse

Townie
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Messages
73
Age
22
My opinion is that yes she would have fallen in love with Spike we already see feelings of friendship in the end of season 5 she trusted him * trusted * treated him like a * man * I think his death just precipitated things and made them made more unhealthy but I think in season 6 would have been a friendship and beginnings of romantic feelings in season 7 she would start fell in love with spike and in the comics he would go out here I think it would have been like that
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,674
Age
49
No. She states herself it’s because of her depression and apathy she just used him to feel something. I personally feel he also manipulated the situation, constantly telling her that her friends won’t ever understand or accept her again, and that she is dark, and wrong now. That he is the only one she can come too. I feel if he hadn’t done that she might not have ether.
I think he did but that's not why she came back. She intiated things before he did that but it's a number of factors what stopped her was seeing concrete proof that he would go behind her back and collaborate in schemes that would result in deaths it didn't matter how high up he was on the food chain or how much he knew - he didn't care even if it was as simple as not caring enough to question that was still morally compromised enough to be too toxic and he was literally incapable of understanding that.

As to the question I don't think Buffy was depressed because she sacrificed herself and was ressurected but she did the former because she was already becoming depressed. Think about it - beverement, relationship break up, work stress, threat to last close relative - all triggers in their own combine them and add money worries and a dead end job. She was seeking an escape and with a lack of help and therapy she got sucked in to what was available and it didn't help everyone around her had their own issues. In a normal state of mind Buffy would have had the ability to set healthy boundaries between her and Spike and maybe he would have made the choice he did without the trauma the damage they did to each other but she definately wouldn't have had the affair if her mother hadn't died.
 
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BuffyNvrForgets

Slayerette
Joined
Aug 10, 2021
Messages
152
I think he did but that's not why she came back. She intiated things before he did that but it's a number of factors what stopped her was seeing concrete proof that he would go behind her back and collaborate in schemes that would result in deaths it didn't matter how high up he was on the food chain or how much he knew - he didn't care even if it was as simple as not caring enough to question that was still morally compromised enough to be too toxic and he was literally incapable of understanding that.

As to the question I don't think Buffy was depressed because she sacrificed herself and was ressurected but she did the former because she was already becoming depressed. Think about it - beverement, relationship break up, work stress, threat to last close relative - all triggers in their own combine them and add money worries and a dead end job. She was seeking an escape and with a lack of help and therapy she got sucked in to what was available and it didn't help everyone around her had their own issues. In a normal state of mind Buffy would have had the ability to set healthy boundaries between her and Spike and maybe he would have made the choice he did without the trauma the damage they did to each other but she definately wouldn't have had the affair if her mother hadn't died.
You make some great points. In terms of the cornering her before their "relationship", there are several instances wehre she goes away to be alone, and he always seeks her out even when she wants some solitude. He makes a point of being there whenever she is upset (not quite as sweet as it sounds, given the motive), in order to establish that when she's not doing well, she should come to him (as seen in "Life Serial). I find that a little icky...Can't really pin point why, (I don't think he starts verbally maipulating her until they are "together") but even so, it doesn't quite sit right.

I think Buffy was extremeyl stressed, yes, but Buffy did not want to die in "The Gift". In my personal opinion, that is the reason the gift is so meaningful and important for Buffy's character. It wasn't two birds with one stone, she wasn't saving Dawn and getting a free ride outta dodge. She wanted to live, but she loved Dawn and her friends/family (heck, even the randos she's never met but lives to protect anyways) she would lay down her own life for them.

"For what greater love is there, than to lay down one's life for one's friends"?

You are right, she was not depressed because she sacrificed herself, she was depressed because, as she said, she was finally fullfilled, and now, suddenly, she is back playing Sisyphus in Sunnydale. Not only that, but because she's been gone, her whole life is off track. Add to that, she's never had the opportunity to learn how to be an adult in society (though, of course, her attitude and psychology have matured) and thus doesn't know anything about getting a job, paying bills, yada yada yada. She never had the chance. One thing I really don't like about season 6 is Buffy's friends (Except Tara. Tara really proves herself this season.). They pull her out of Heaven (Unknowingly, sure), having used all her money and moved into her house. Then they have the audacity to tell her she has to get a job. I never understood why Willow and Tara couldn't have gotten a job. Plenty of people have Jobs and go to school. If Tara, Willow, and Buffy all got part time jobs, they would probably be much better off than Willow and Tara doing whatever, eating all Buffy's food as Buffy struggles to balance being the slayer, keeping a job, and just generally stay afloat. For get about going back to school, she's drowning in debt and she has no time.

And then Giles come's back. yay, right? No. He comes back, and as soon as Buffy says, "Thank you so much for being here. I've been suffering, and I really needed someone to help me feel stable" (Paraphrased) he decides he has to leave, because this 20 year old who just lost her mom and is trying to support herself, her sister and her two friends, and struggles with a dangerous, unforgiving job, and was never taught how to live as an adult apparently needs to blindly figure out how to support heself, RIGHT NOW.

Unfortunately, it really isn't a stretch fro Buffy to become depressed. The world is almost literally against her.
 

Ann

Nee chatwuann Bangel
Joined
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832
Location
Where I live, but really don't want to be.
Those 3 factors especially being pulled out of what could be described as Heaven and finding herself back in a world that was not that threw Buffy into a depression and a downward spiral which was not mentally healthy. Then she turned to Spike. I personally don’t think he was what Buff really needed. I guess there weren’t a whole lot of therapists for someone such as Buffy in Sunnydale.
 
T
thrasherpix
I hear that Buffy and Dawn needed real therapy. But I dare anyone to go to a therapist (more than Buffy could afford in s6) and pretend you're Dawn or Buffy as you seek help. Be warned that once you're committed, you're labelled for life.

Btvs fan

Scooby
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Messages
1,615
Age
40
I am doing my first re-watch, and watched "Crush" last night. Now that I know they get together in S6, I was struck by the absolute lack of chemistry on Buffy's side in that episode (and the whole season, IMO). She wasn't just "protesting too much," she felt genuine disgust and horror that Spike had a crush on her. It was completely believable, even knowing what I know now. So, if not for Buffy's depression, the way the characters were in S5, I don't think Buffy would ever have accepted Spike.

Having said that, the writers wanted to get them together. So I think if they hadn't written the depression, they might just have had Spike keep trying to better himself and win her over, or get his soul earlier. Some drastic change would have been introduced to make it happen.

At the time of airing David Fury did in an interview stating he was against Spuffy and called Spuffy fans serial killer lovers and the episode was to show how they shouldn't be together. So no not all writers wanted them together.
 
Stake fodder
Stake fodder
It's funny that the writers were arguing over Spuffy as much as some fans do!

Dora

Scooby
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Messages
1,236
Age
55
Mmmm so the vast majority believes as I do that Spuffy would not have happened if all the trauma that Buffy had gone through in S5 and before then being dragged out of heaven back to the hell of fighting for your life every night, Spike was fully aware what Buffy had gone through yet he still stalked her, her still taunted her, he was fully aware that her friends had moved on and had little time for her, So the majority must feel as I do that Spike to advantage of Buffy , that he was fully aware that Buffy behaviour was out of character , that he knew that he would never before been able to initiate sex with Buffy as he did in the Bronze, and the fact that he did not really care what happened to Buffy, her mental health, her problems with Dawn etc he just cared for his own selfishness, that there was no love, if not he would not have taken advantage of Buffy
 

nmcil12

Potential
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
214
Location
USA
I am doing my first re-watch, and watched "Crush" last night. Now that I know they get together in S6, I was struck by the absolute lack of chemistry on Buffy's side in that episode (and the whole season, IMO). She wasn't just "protesting too much," she felt genuine disgust and horror that Spike had a crush on her. It was completely believable, even knowing what I know now. So, if not for Buffy's depression, the way the characters were in S5, I don't think Buffy would ever have accepted Spike.

Having said that, the writers wanted to get them together. So I think if they hadn't written the depression, they might just have had Spike keep trying to better himself and win her over, or get his soul earlier. Some drastic change would have been introduced to make it happen
Joss and the writers had a pretty huge "cake and eat it too" regarding their relationship. I think Spike was the second most popular character next to Buffy - so they got to introduce a relationship, all cleaned and justified eventually with their Buffy is so depressed, emotionally cut off, and disgusted with herself that she feels justified in using Spike as her self whipping post. They continued to play to all the fans by keeping the BA relationship as Good status with direct contrast to Spike as the Bad Boyfriend premise. The true status of both relationship, IMO, is that both relationships had huge negative factors. From the start of Crush - all the friends, Joyce and even Dawn, followed by Giles in his "there is no possible way to Buffy" (paraphrase) it was set as an unacceptable/bad. Even worse, again in my opinion, the extreme depression as justification for how Buffy acts out their relationship is extremely problematic - since when is depression a justification for physical and emotional abuse?
 

Faded90

Scooby
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
895
Age
63
Joss and the writers had a pretty huge "cake and eat it too" regarding their relationship. I think Spike was the second most popular character next to Buffy - so they got to introduce a relationship, all cleaned and justified eventually with their Buffy is so depressed, emotionally cut off, and disgusted with herself that she feels justified in using Spike as her self whipping post. They continued to play to all the fans by keeping the BA relationship as Good status with direct contrast to Spike as the Bad Boyfriend premise. The true status of both relationship, IMO, is that both relationships had huge negative factors. From the start of Crush - all the friends, Joyce and even Dawn, followed by Giles in his "there is no possible way to Buffy" (paraphrase) it was set as an unacceptable/bad. Even worse, again in my opinion, the extreme depression as justification for how Buffy acts out their relationship is extremely problematic - since when is depression a justification for physical and emotional abuse?
Does anyone (other than some fans) use Buffy’s depression to justify her behaviour? Buffy certainly doesn’, she’s genuinely appalled with herself and this goes right throughout S7. She actually shows more contrition about her S6 behaviour than ensoulled Spike does about his to be honest
 

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,674
Age
49
Mmmm so the vast majority believes as I do that Spuffy would not have happened if all the trauma that Buffy had gone through in S5 and before then being dragged out of heaven back to the hell of fighting for your life every night, Spike was fully aware what Buffy had gone through yet he still stalked her, her still taunted her, he was fully aware that her friends had moved on and had little time for her, So the majority must feel as I do that Spike to advantage of Buffy , that he was fully aware that Buffy behaviour was out of character , that he knew that he would never before been able to initiate sex with Buffy as he did in the Bronze, and the fact that he did not really care what happened to Buffy, her mental health, her problems with Dawn etc he just cared for his own selfishness, that there was no love, if not he would not have taken advantage of Buffy
Never make the mistake of believing the 'vast majority' thinks like you. Trust me no matter who you are they don't. Anything you regard as self evident isn't to some people. I'm speaking generally here not just about you. Your statement isn't just kinda arrogant but it flies in the face of reality and what is evident. I find it frustrating that I regard as self evident really isn't to some people.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
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Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,802
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Shame that this wasn't a poll; would've been nice to separate those who believe that Spuffy was purely situational from those who thought it was inevitable.
 
T
thrasherpix
On a side note I think it purely situational taking it at face value, but from a meta perspective as an audience member I'd know it would be inevitable (and just impressed it wasn't as contrived as some of their other ships).

katmobile

Scooby
Joined
Jun 17, 2018
Messages
1,674
Age
49
Shame that this wasn't a poll; would've been nice to separate those who believe that Spuffy was purely situational from those who thought it was inevitable.
All a poll would really prove is what the people on here believe. This place is NOT the be all and end all of fandom believe it or not.
 
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