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Would you have forgiven Wesley?

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Ripper666, May 7, 2012.

  1. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

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    I have two sons, and if someone had kidnapped my child, I would never be able to forgive him. I turn into "mother tiger" for much less and I cannot imagine what I would do in front of my son's kidnapper ..but I'm not Angel, and I do not have his strength. In the case of Angel, the tragedy becomes even more dramatically terrifying, because he can never have another son, even if he lived a thousand years. It is a devastating thing, just thinking about it.
     
  2. iShower4free

    iShower4free Scooby

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    and it only made everything worse that Angel thought his son was lost in a hell dimension forever. It wasnt until Connor came back that they even began to talk again let alone Angel forgiving Wesley.

    I can understand wesley not wanting to tell Angel but there was no reason why couldnt confide in Fred or Gunn. They would have wanted to protect baby Connor just as much as him. And then trusting Holtz? Come on Wes.
     
  3. whitewolf

    whitewolf Potential

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    You know having just gotten the chance to finish S3 (thoughts on that later) I really have little love for Angel here. I'm sorry, but maybe if Angel didn't have a history of going evil and murdering everyone around him then Wes wouldn't have taken his son away. When you are one happy moment away from turning into a soulless killing machine you really lose the benefit of the doubt. Especially when someone comes across prophecies that are confirmed by oracles. Besides Wes is just so badass after he's on his own.
     
  4. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    I don't really see how you can blame Angel at all. I talked above about how I would have ultimately been able to forgive Wes (or at least, I think I would be able too), but Angel is in no way the bad guy here.

    And, friends that we are :), I think you're being pretty harsh on Angel. Yes, the danger is always there of him losing his soul, but considering all the lives he's saved, the number of times he's quite literally saved the world, and the fact that him going bad was not his fault (I'm of the firm belief that you can't blame Angel or Spike with souls for what they did without souls, but that's a topic for another thread), that Angel deserves the trust of those around him. At the absolute, very, very least Wes should have talked to him and the rest of AI about what he was going to do. Angel's proven again and again that he can sacrifice when he needs to.

    Besides when he walked away from Buffy, twice (especially IWRY), I've never felt more sympathy for Angel.
     
  5. whitewolf

    whitewolf Potential

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    Yay for friends :). I'll admit I am probably being kind of harsh on Angel. However, if he had told Wes to go to hell and never had anything to do with him again, I would have been far more understanding of Angel. However, he tried to kill him in cold blood. Wes made a huge mistake, but Angel has committed worse crimes in his life than Wes did and yet when the Watcher's Council offered Wes his job back if he would help them kill Angel and capture Faith, Wes stood with Angel. He turned his back on the order that trained him since childhood and risked everything for Angel. Wes deserved better from Angel.

    Oh, and as aside, how the hell did Angel get out of that hospital? He should have been rotting in a jail cell for attempted murder. I've noticed this when it comes to TV shows, comics, whatever, it's always the small things that challenge my suspense of disbelieve the most. The same thing happened when I was watching Arrow this week, billionaire vigilante? Sure I'll accept that. A DA being allowed to defend that someone on death row that her office prosecuted without getting fired? Somehow it's harder to accept than the bow and arrow wielding billionaire or the vampire.
     
  6. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    Lol, I was thinking the same thing about Arrow. I've been really, really liking that show, but when I saw that I had to raise my eyebrows quite a bit. Most non-HBO shows (and Hawaii Five-O, for some reason. Seriously, it might be the single most detailed cop show I've ever seen, in a genre well known for skating over details like that) do that quite a bit. I'm guessing Angel pretty much stormed out. A pissed off, super-powered vampire can pretty much do what he wants, and he's evaded police when he wants to a number of times.

    Thinking about what you said about Wes and Angel, you make a very strong point. Wes has stood by Angel a number of times. Even as far back as S3 of Buffy, he tries to get the Council to help cure Angel after Faith poisons him. I had kind of forgotten about that when I posted my reply. Especially when the Watcher's Council tries to have Angel killed at the same time as Faith. Wes really, really went to bat for him there, at a pretty big personal cost.

    I've always said that Wes was trying to do the right thing, and that he had the best of intentions. I really do believe that. I just think that at the same time, considering he just thought his infant son had been condemned to die in hell, Angel's reaction was understandable. Not right, but understandable. Not every superhero adheres to the Batman "don't kill" code. And while Angel has skated the moral line (most notably with the lawyers in S2), I think of him as one of the best heroes I've ever seen.
     
  7. The Thirst Evil

    The Thirst Evil The Un-slept

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    I think it is a huge gesture on Angel's part to forgive Wes, considering how much of a vendetta Angel had for him shortly before that. I think Connor coming back and Angel being rescued from the ocean helped in his forgiveness, but still, it must have killed Angel inside every time he saw how Connor turned out, and knowing it was partly Wes' fault.

    Although in hindsight, Whether Wesley had kidnapped Connor or not, the PTB needed Connor to grow up in Quor-Toth so that Jasmine could be born, and I guess Angel had considered that after the plan being revealed by Skip.
     
  8. itssmiletime

    itssmiletime Potential

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    I'd love to think I could forgive Wesley. I mean, I can really understand his perspective and his actions. I can acknowledge W&H's and Holtz / Sahjahon (I can never spell it correctly) interference in a certain chain of events. But I don't think a man who lost his son can grasp it, and if I was said man, honestly, I would be so enraged and have no emotional control whatsoever and my actions would be very similar to Angel's in Forgiving.

    I think I would hold it against that person for there entire life, and I would never, ever trust or forgive them. But that's me, I mean, I know people who I fully believe can forgive a person who would do that. I do think what changed Angel's attitudes in S4 towards Wesley was that well, he did save Angel's life and he was deeply impressed at his investigation towards Cordelia's disappearance. Although my stubborn 'no' in my first paragraph, actions like those, I imagine, would greatly help in forgiveness.
     
  9. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    My first response to this, and I posted it back at the beginning, was, "Angel could dish it out, but he couldn't take it. He has taken actions just this just this drastic in the past without bothering to consult the affected party, and felt heroic for doing so," and I still feel exactly the same. But that is judging from an unaffected viewpoint. That wasn't my son who was taken into a hell dimension by one of my oldest and worst enemies. If it were, no two or three orderlies would have been able to pull me off of him.

    I still think that Angel was wrong in doing what he did, but I can see why he did it. There were enough mistakes made leading up to and in the aftermath of this to go around. Wes should have discussed his fears with someone else, and if he was reluctant to confront Angel, there were always Fred and Gunn. If nothing else, it would have made taking the baby from Angel easier, and consequently losing him to Holtz much harder. Angel, himself, should have noticed the change in his behavior and the fact that he was suddenly drinking much more blood than he previously had been. For that matter, everyone should have noticed and questioned it. And Gunn and Fred should have remained more loyal to Wes, and worked harder at resolving the resultant situation between Wes and Angel.

    Then again, if everything had gone back to normal over the course of a couple of episodes, then most likely we wouldn't have had the Wes/Lyla relationship, so I guess that pretty much justifies the whole cluster f**k.
     
  10. Blaze

    Blaze Let it Burn

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    Black Thorn
    Now I'm a Wesley fan, and as a bystander I can forgive him. But if that happened to me and my child, no, I could never forgive the man responsible for taking my child. I think Angel's reaction was more than understandable.

    But again, on Wesley's perspective, I also probably could never forgive myself, and it would absolutely ruin my life knowing I'm responsible for the disappearance of my best friend's kid.

    Both situations are a lose lose.
     
  11. slayer6

    slayer6 Potential

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    I have a 4 year old daughter and I understand the difference here. When Angel meddles in peoples lives it is because they are doing something evil. When someone has a child the bond is not comprehensible to someone who has none. It is beyond rationality. No matter if Wesley thought he was doing the right thing he still kidnapped Angel's son and that is unforgivable to any parent. Not only did he kidnap him but failed to protect the child in the process so that makes it even worse. Had it not been for Wesley Angel's son would have been safe at home not with Holtz in the worst hell dimension of all. Wesley was 100% wrong in the way he handled things in that situation. Angel has every right to be furious with him. To say Angel can dish it out but not take it is in my opinion ridiculous because Angel has sacrificed more for the cause than anyone. Not to mention if Wesley would have done thew right thing and told his friends about the prophecy they would have figured it out like they did. It was a fake prophecy to begin with. Even if it was a real prophecy how many times has there been a prophecy that Angel and Buffy have foiled? The master will rise and reign for 1000 years. Only half came true there so it proves to me that prophecy's are not absolute and that they can be stopped.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2013
  12. Anya2012

    Anya2012 Floppy, hoppy, bunnies!

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    While I love Wesley (he's my favourite Buffyverse character) he could have handled it a lot better. Sure he thought Angel was going to kill his own son, but he could have talked to him first. Or to Fred and Gunn and they could have all talked to Angel about it.
     
  13. Ethan Reigns

    Ethan Reigns Scooby

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    Sineya
    So far, nobody has mentioned an obvious objection - what if the prophecy said that Angel would kill his son because his son deserved to be killed? We are in uncharted waters with the son of a vampire. He may have turned out to be a Jasmine-type demagogue who needed to be killed.

    Wesley was extremely short-sighted in thinking that he was just going to be a normal child. He could, for example, end up like "Billy 3ADH06" on Angel, who could transform a man into a violent misogynist with just a touch or any of a number of things that could be imagined of a unique character whose origins were inexplicable and whose parents were at one time, among the most evil beings around.

    Of course, we on the internet all know that everything is exactly as presented, right? The idea that the prophecy might be bogus never occurs to Wesley. Just as I could say I am a black woman living in Louisiana or a student living in Belgium or a construct designed by a psychologist to determine what goes on in this forum, you know nothing about me other than what I want you to believe and Wesley should have known that there are malicious entities that he deals with who would have no compunctions about presenting a bogus prophecy.

    Wesley's pride in his Council education would keep him from admitting the enormity of his decision to take unilateral action to break up a family without consulting anyone else or even thinking whether the predicted course of events would be a bad or a good thing. Forgiveness is for people who can admit they have done something wrong. I suspect Wesley would consider his action to be what the military call collateral damage or acceptable losses caused by his bad judgement. Someone who believes he has done everything right or at least justifiably is not eligible for forgiveness, which only applies to someone who is certain he has done something wrong.
     
  14. slayer6

    slayer6 Potential

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    Not only does Wesley do the wrong thing but then afterwards he gets mad at the people at AI for being mad at him. He acts like they were mad for no reason and shunned him for a minor mistake. It seemed to me Wesley thought everyone should just kiss his ass and say he did what he thought was best and move on. Things don't work that way so what does he do? He goes and literally begins sleeping with the enemy. Saving Angel from the ocean was great but that does not change the fact that he went all dark and isolated acting like he was the one wronged.
     
  15. white avenger

    white avenger white avenger

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    ***EffieT1 disagrees: I couldnt disagree more strongly (in the nicest way possible) wesley's decision resulting in HIS CHILD BEING TAKEN,TO A HELL DIMENSION NO LESS,BY A MAN WHO DESPISED ANGEL. This isnt a case of can dish it but cant take it, its a flat out betrayal***

    ***slayer6 disagrees: kids make it a new ballgame***

    Certainly, Wes was doing what he did to save Connor, but he was also doing it for another reason, arguably as important, or even more so, than that. HE WAS TRYING TO SAVE ANGEL. There wasn't any actual betrayal involved in getting Connor away from Angel. as far as he knew, Angel was going to kill his miracle child, which would have obviously destroyed Angel totally. That wasn't an act of betrayal, it was loyalty in the highest order. He knew that Angel would hate him for what he was trying to do, possibly even kill him in a most unpleasant manner, for what he did, but he was willing to accept that to save Angel the grief of knowing that he had killed Connor.

    Any betrayal was on the part of Holtz, who duped and betrayed Wes, turning his attempted good deed into something almost as bad as if Angel actually had killed Connor. If there was anyone betrayed in this action, it was Wes, betrayed by the people he believed were actually helping him, and by the man who he was trying to help.

    I can certainly understand Angel's initial anger, but for a man with the habit of making decisions for others without so much as asking them their feelings on the matter, who supposedly sees "the big picture" so clearly, there should have been a point where he looked at all of the facts in the matter and realized that Wes was actually, sincerely, trying to do what was best for all concerned.
     
    slayer6: Sometimes the intention is not as important as the result.
  16. slayer6

    slayer6 Potential

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    It was a betrayal by Wesley because he showed that he had no faith in Angel and the rest of AI to deal with the situation so he snuck off and made things much worse. I have said before no prophecy so far has been 100% guaranteed. The master was supposed to rise which he did but then was supposed to reign for 1,000 years. The Master didn't reign for 1,000 minutes. I am sorry but in no way did Wesley do the right thing regardless of what his intentions were. Some of the worst things ever done have been done with the best of intentions.
     
  17. SlayerPrincess

    SlayerPrincess Potential

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    Yeah...I don't know about everybody else but I have a 4 year old son and if my best friend was to kidnap him and something like that was to happen to him (of course he wouldn't be taken to a hell dimension but you know what I mean) I would kill her. And I love my bestie to death, I can't even imagine her doing something like that. Wesley should have said something if not to Angel then to somebody else. I did feel bad for him after a while but that's only cause I'm not Angel and it wasn't my kid. He did save his life after that and Conner is the one who tryed to kill him so maybe that made it easier to forgive him...Idk, but at that moment when his little infant baby got taken to a hell dimension, no he was not wrong in how he reacted.
     
  18. NightLady

    NightLady Potential

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    Maybe I wouldn't be able to forgive, but if I was a dangerous demon and I knew that it was something done to protect my son from me, maybe I would understand.
    One way or the other, trying to kill Wesley was just so, so wrong and it made me despise Angel.

    ---------- Post added at 03:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 AM ----------

    1. vampires do not stop being demons only because they have a soul
    2. Angel's soul is so fleeting that it makes him dangerous
    3. he is dangerous even with his soul because as he says in Amends "It's not the
    demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man."

    I'll add that I strongly believe that had Angel been the one to find the false prophecy he would have done exactly what Wesley did. Seeing that he is such a selfless person ;D
    But of course he wouldn't have send Connor in a hell dimension...
    And here I'm puzzled: did Connor really go in a hell dimension? :confused: because apart from the fact that he hated Angel he didn't seem so affected by it.

    Also, that makes me believe that Connor's hatred was what really angered Angel and drove him to seek revenge trying to kill Wesley. Again, a world of wrongness! :(
     
    slayer6: Angel was not a dangerous demon. He is not Angelus
  19. slayer6

    slayer6 Potential

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    How could conner's hatred have anything to do with Angel attacking Wesley when conner had not yet returned when the attack happened? And the vampire being the same with or without a soul is for another thread but I disagree with your point of view on that particular subject. Angel was not dangerous at all uless he became Angelus which he had to have perfect happiness which is not easy to come by.
     
  20. NightLady

    NightLady Potential

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    yes, you are right, that was crap :eek:
    I realized it later but couldn't edit the post.

    It seems I explained myself wrongly... what I said has nothing to do with the soul debate. You wrote "Angel was not a dangerous demon. He is not Angelus." And I thought you were stating that he isn't a demon and he isn't dangerous, so what I wanted to say first is that he is a vampire hence he is a demon. But I see now that I may have misunderstood? maybe you only wanted to say he isn't dangerous? because I think the fact that Angel is a demon is one of the few, if only, thing that's not up to debate.
    anyway, for the 'dangerous' thing, you said that it's not easy for Angelus to come back, but if I remember well, in ATS they made him come back with magic, so it doesn't seem so unlikely for it to happen. But the mere fact that it may happen makes him dangerous.

    Angel is like a sleeping volcano. It doesn't stop being dangerous even if it's sleeping, because the risk that it awakens it's always there. So, again, if I had been in Angel position I would have been the first to send my son away to protect him from me.