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Would you have forgiven Wesley?

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Ripper666, May 7, 2012.

  1. SlayerPrincess

    SlayerPrincess Potential

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    [MENTION=12490]NightLady[/MENTION] I would have done the same thing but it would have been my call not somebody kidnapping my baby behind my back and bringing him to my enemy. I think if Wesley would have told Angel he would have sent Conner away to protect him (he likes doing that anyway lol)
     
  2. slayer6

    slayer6 Potential

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    Yes I agree that it may have been a good idea to keep Angel away from Conner but Angel would have thought so too. The issue is Wesley just took him without talking to anyone and got the kid kidnapped into a hell dimension. That is what is unforgivable because had Wesley came to them they could have kept the kid safe. Wesley didn't trust anyone enough to talk to them about it so the kid was gone forever (that's what they believed at the time)
     
  3. NightLady

    NightLady Potential

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    I understand your point and I'm not saying that what Wesley did was right. Kidnapping a child is wrong... even if in a world made of demons, and magic and prophecies, perspectives change IMO
    But Wesley was without doubt in good faith.
    It's easy to say in retrospect that he should have done differently, because it turned out that he was fooled... but what if the prophecy was authentic? And why should have he doubted it? I don't remember anyone ever questioning the authenticity of a prophecy before, not in BTVS or in ATS.
    That's why I stand in my answer to the question of the topic that I would have maybe not forgiven but at least understood. And while I would also have understood if Angel could not forgive Wesley (which by the way he did in the end) I could never think that he was right in trying to kill Wesley. Not out of morals, but because of the motivation behind Wesley's action. And seeing that Angel forgave Wesley, it presumably means that he eventually understood it and maybe was happy that he didn't succeed in killing his friend. Not 'perfectly' happy, luckily :p
     
  4. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    I think what makes it such a murky topic is that you're right, Wesley was acting in good faith. He was trying to do the right thing. But there was no reason for him to act the way he did, even with that in mind.

    And Wes should have vetted that prophecy, to the very best of his ability. Look at S1 of BTVS. The Master kills Buffy because of the prophecy, but he laughs at her beforehand because she failed to realize the execution of the prophecy depended solely on her. If Buffy hadn't listened to the prophecy, hadn't panicked, nothing would have happened. The Master would have remained trapped under that church.
     
  5. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

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    More than once, Angel has questioned the authenticity of at least two prophecies. In BTVS first season (Prophecy Girl) and in ATS first season (To Shanshu in LA). Besides in the fifth season he signed the renunciation Shanshu, thereby nullifying the possibility that the prophecy can be fulfilled.
     
  6. NightLady

    NightLady Potential

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    I'm not sure about the meaning of the word 'vetted'. It's 'avoided' or 'checked on'?
     
  7. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    Yes, it means to check something out, to find out as much as possible about it. I know Wes looked into the prophecy, but it clearly wasn't deep enough, because it was a lie.
     
  8. NightLady

    NightLady Potential

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    Ok, thanks for explaining the word 'vetted'.
    You are right, if Buffy hadn't panicked or Wesley had discovered that the prophecy was falsified maybe things would have gone differently in both cases, and that I think could be said for a lot of other situations. History is full of what ifs but ultimately they are not really useful.
    I cannot fault Wesley for not discovering the truth, because I have no way to know if it was even possible and also because if memory serves me well (and wiki is reliable ^_^), he didn't have much time to investigate further because the portents descripted in the prophecy started to happen (and I don't understand how it was possible...) and Angel was acting weird due to his blood being poisoned with Connor's. Wesley honestly believed Connor was in danger and that he had to do something. Quickly. So he decided to leave with Connor but was attacked by Justine that kidnapped the child.
    Holtz, the demon and Lilah were all bent in getting Connor and this is a thing that makes me think that Wesley was not really essential to their plan. What I mean is that they would have eventually succeeded in any case. But this is another what if...
    Anyway, it was because of other's actions that the child ended in the hell dimension, not directly Wesley's. Angel knew that, because he was there when Holtz went in the portal with Connor, and then learned the truth about the fake prophecy. But he still went to the hospital and cold-bloodedly tried to kill Wesley while he was helpless in his bed. It was an act of revenge that ultimately would not have brought Connor back and I believe that Wesley's actions were understandable and maybe even forgiven, and that he didn't deserve to be killed.
     
    slayer6: If Wesley didn't take conner then Justine doesn't have the opportunity
  9. janas

    janas Bangel in the soul

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    Wesley knew that Angel loved Connor and would never, ever hurt her. This that shows this episode, is the betrayal of Wesley. He believed in a prophecy, rather that believe in his friend, and it is a mistake that Wesley will do also in the fifth season, when he breaks the window Orlon, thus releasing the memories of Connor. But in this case, he helps to re bring Connor from his father..
     
  10. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    You're right, history is filled with "what ifs". That's not what I meant. It's important to learn from history, and Wesley made no attempt at that. The example of Buffy and The Master is extremely relevant. It proves that prophecies, as The Master says, "don't tell you everything". To not take that into account when you're literally determining the life and future of your best friend and his son, is ridiculously negligent, no matter how pure your attentions are (and I will always maintain that Wes meant well). I don't think you can just write off Wes' failure at looking at the whole picture as "well, history is full of what ifs".

    But like I said, it's murky. You are right, Angel was acting in accordance to the beginnings of the prophecy, so I understand fully why Wesley got freaked out. But still, as others have said, he chose a stupid course of action, when he had options on the table. That's on him. And while Wes was a pawn for Holtz and Saigon (no idea how to spell that), if he'd remained calm and trusted his friends (not just Angel. Fred is very right when she takes him to task for not trusting in her, Cordelia, Lorne or Gunn either) everything that happened, Connor going into the hell dimension, could have been averted. It was his fault, indirectly at the very least, that Connor got taken.
     
  11. NightLady

    NightLady Potential

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    Firstly, I'm not 'writing off' anything, I'm just saying that no one can say for sure what would have happened if... you wrote "if he'd remained calm and trusted his friends... everything that happened .... could have been averted" and well, I wonder how can you tell this for sure, what gives you all this self-assurance? What do you think Fred, Gunn and all the others could have done that Wesley didn't? Also, I don't think the fact he kept the issue to himself was a matter of distrust in the others. I think he didn't want to involve them in the sacrifice he was willing to do.
    Secondly, I've said very clearly that I would have understood if Angel had not been able to forgive him, but trying to kill him is a different matter and I strongly believe that it was wrong.

    I'm quoting some pieces from the transcripts (source buffyworld.com) to show that the members of Angel's team shared this opinion.

    From episode 3x17 "Forgiving":

    And later...


    The last part reveals that despite Angel's assurance of never hurting those he cares about, Gunn thinks he would hurt Fred (and surely Angel cared for Fred?)

    And here we see that even Justine, who had no reason whatsoever to defend Wesley, was on his side:



    And...

    It's interesting that Angel does not contradict Lorne in his initial assessment...

    And this is when Angel tries to kill Wesley:


    And finally, in episode 3 x 18 "Double or nothing" is the part you were talking about (Fred taking Wesley to task etc). She did, but she also said much more...
    (I underscored two phrases particularly meaningful)

    Smaller point, I think Fred's issue when she talks about Wesley not trusting them is more personal. More about the fact that she felt he left her out, that he acted without involving her (and the others) than a honest belief that things would have gone differently if he had, because that she couldn't know.

    And now, as much as I find this debate to be interesting (especially because it made me rub up my memory on the topic) I have to say that I don't really understand your point. You agree with me in saying that Wesley was in good faith but you disagree with the rest.
    Does it mean that you think Angel was right to kill Wesley and wrong to forgive him? That Wesley deserved to die for his mistake? Or is this just a case of wanting to "support Angel until the bitter end", no matter the evidence?
     
    slayer6: If of course because he didn't that is not the same context of if that your making it out to be
  12. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    No, it isn't just a case of that, although I'm sure a bit of it plays in :cool:.

    I never said Angel was "right", not once. I repeatedly said the situation was murky, and I believe that still. If you want to interpret Fred's anger at Wes being that he didn't trust her and not because it could have averted disaster, that's a fair interpretation. I don't agree with it, but at the same time I can see how you see it that way. I remember the scenes you quoted (it was nice having them laid out though, that does help), but the context is important as well. I recall (and I fully admit it's been over a year, easy, since I've seen them, so I could have misremembered) Fred desperately trying to fix the situation, and Gunn being pretty pissed off as Wesley. Like I said, Wes' motivations don't matter. That's what Gunn seems to get in the scene you mentioned. And if you reread my previous post, I didn't say the aversion of disaster was inevitable. I said talking to the rest of AI "could" have changed everything, and it could have. Wes should have known that.

    And no, I don't think Wes deserved to die. Not at all. There's no doubt in my mind that Wes is a good person, even after everything he goes through. My point was that I understand Angel's perspective, and I don't think it makes him this monster you want him to be. Do I think he was right? Of course not. There's a difference. Let me pose you a hypothetical question here. In S5 of BTVS, Buffy says, with deadly assurance, that she'll kill ANYONE, Giles, Xander, Willow, anyone, who comes near Dawn after Giles suggests killing her to save the universe. Does that make Buffy a monster? Is Wes a monster when he thinks he's shooting his father to protect Fred in S5? If you say no, then isn't that a double standard? I get the perspectives of the characters, even though I disagree with them. Both series' go to great lengths to tell the audience that love makes you do crazy things, at times horrible things.

    Was Angel wrong? Yes, he was. Does that make him evil, or some kind of monster? No, it doesn't, no more so than Buffy is in S5 of her own show. And, it's worth noting, as the series progresses, him and Wesley come to terms and forgive one another, just as the Scoobies do with Buffy.

    I understand if you see it differently. That's cool. There are certainly instances where characters act in ways I just can't begin to understand, even when other posters on this site try and explain it to me. That happens. I hope you understand at least that I'm not trying to just blindly defend Angel. Sure, he is my favorite character, but a big part of that is I always seem to be able to get where he's coming from. This instance is no different.
     
    thetopher likes this.
  13. NightLady

    NightLady Potential

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    Well, I appreciate your honesty :)

    As I said, it's a smaller point and doesn't really change anything (of what I'm saying of course).

    I don't want to start another argument but you are putting words in my mouth: when and where did I say Angel is a monster?

    No, to both your questions. Because saying or thinking or even wishing something is totally different than actually doing it. A double standard would be if I said Buffy wasn't wrong in trying to kill Faith (in season 3?) while blaming Angel for his trying to kill Wesley. Which I don't do. Both were horrible actions to me.

    Agreed. But it seems that what I get from the perspectives of this particular character is totally different from what you get. And it's okay to me.

    Well, I already mentioned the fact that Angel forgave Wesley but actually I think it proves my point :p

    Uhm... I still do not see your point, because you seem to agree with me (Wesley was in good faith, Angel was wrong and so on) but keep disagreeing. With what, I truly don't understand :confused:
    Unless it's the fact that I dislike Angel?
    Anyway it seems we have reached the point where we have to agree to disagree... or not?? I feel a bit confused now! ^__^
     
  14. Robb Stark

    Robb Stark King in the North

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    Sineya
    [MENTION=12490]NightLady[/MENTION],

    Yeah, I think agree to disagree is the right way to go. You don't see it from my perspective and I don't see it from yours. No problem.

    I was just trying to explain why Angel did what he did, and why I feel it isn't a pertinent example of him being a bad guy. You've been very, very critical of him in, well, almost every Angel-related post I've read, and that's fine, but in this instance I was just trying to explain it from another stance.

    Anyways, we're good. I'm bowing out from here on.
     
  15. AnthonyCordova

    AnthonyCordova Apocalypse Engine

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    Sineya
    Forgiveness is one of the noblest things you can do. Everyone deserves that chance, so long as they seek it. I don't care who we're talking about. It may take longer for one action than another, but for a well-meaning person it should always be possible in the end.

    Now to Wesley. The results of his action was bad, no doubt. But on top of the fact that the humane thing to do is always eventually to forgive, his motivations were good. He made his decision from a good place. The result was terribly unfortunate, but still. And yes, he should have informed Angel what he was thinking of doing. But hindsight is 20/20, not foresight. Everyone makes choices based on the best they can think of at the moment; sometimes our thinking isn't good enough in the moment though. When someone is trying to do a good thing, you shouldn't hate them if it turned out wrong because their thinking skills weren't up to the task. Angel's made those blunders too. Forgive Wesley? Of course.

    And doesn't every fan wish Holtz had forgiven Angel and seen Angel had become a good person? Doesn't every fan think Holtz had become a monster by not (eventually) forgiving Angel and seeing him for the good person he had become? Holtz lost his humanity because he couldn't forgive a good person. Don't be hypocritical.
     
    FlowerPower: Your Holtz/foregiveness point was brilliant!
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  16. chasesummers

    chasesummers Cordy Lives

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    I can't really relate to Angel here so I can't put myself in his shoes because surely I would have tackled things more differently (but what's a show without drama right? lol)

    It's understandable that Wesley felt uncomfortable and probably scared to talk about it with Angel (even though I still would have). At least, a talk with Cordelia might have also made some difference but if I'm not mistaken she was away at that moment.

    As it has been said, the Angel Investigation team has always worked close together & their friendship is much stronger than that of the Scooby Gang. I had no doubt Angel could forgive Wes with his time. All the mess happened because they lack communication here.

    I would definitely forgive Wesley.
     
  17. Cocogurl

    Cocogurl Townie

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    I want to say yes, because I do believe in forgiveness and redemption. But if someone had taken my child, even if they had the best of intentions, I most likely would've reacted the way Angel and I just don't know if I could forgive that. All I can say is I hope so.

    I don't believe Wesley is a monster and I know, he truly believed he was doing what was right. But he put more faith in a prophecy then he did in his friends and the consequences were tragic. And it's not like Wesley didn't have options. He could've talked to Gunn, Cordelia, Lorne, Fred. But he didn't.
     
  18. Buffy Summers

    Buffy Summers Yataro Staff Member

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    Sineya
    I don't know that I would have been able to forgive him, but I think trying to kill him was way OTT for Angel. Wesley was trying to protect the child - it's not like Wesley tried to drown Connor or something. It wasn't a normal situation and Angel & Connor aren't a normal father & son. I feel like you would feel more betrayed than murderous in this case.
     
  19. Xin Rong

    Xin Rong Killed by Dissertation

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    People get crazy when their children are involved. Angel lost a son, and Connor lost his chance at a happy childhood because of Wesley.

    If I were either of those characters, I'd never be able to forgive Wesley for the life he took, no matter what his intentions.
     
  20. sosa lola

    sosa lola Scooby

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    No. Period. I will never forgive him for taking my child away from me. I will hate him even more if that child returned suddenly as a teenager who had the worst childhood possible.