• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:

    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!

    2. Fourteen thousand people can't be wrong.

    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.

    4. See 1 through 3.

    Come on, register already!

Would you have forgiven Wesley?

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
1,515
Age
33
Location
Québec, Canada
Sineya
Ok so I am always on the fence with this one.

On one side I understand Wesley's action in kidnapping Connor because he was really trying to save him.

On the other side, his actions really destroyed Angel and Connor's relationship.

What do you guys think? Would you forgive Wesley or try to kill him like Angel?

Let's discuss!
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Am I Angel in this scenario? I can understand that Angel was unable to forgive him, because Connor had made him happy for only the second time in his long (un)life, and he was still grieving Darla's sacrifice.

However, as a neutral observer, I have no problem forgiving Wesley. Intentions should matter more than outcomes, because the control we possess on the world is limited. Everybody believed the prophecy foretelling Buffy's death and it did come true, so I think Wesley had reason to act as he did. Angel is a vampire with man-eating instincts, so it is not inconceivable that something could cause him to hurt Connor.
 

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,278
Age
34
I think I would eventually move on, like Angel did, but I don’t think I wold ever forgive him. I understand that he did what he could to make sure the prophecy was for real, and I do believe he acted on what he thought was for the greater good. However, all of this could have been avoided if he had just confided in his crew. @Ethan Reigns brought up a very good point in another thread, that why didn’t he at least stop to think that even if the prophecy was for real, that maybe Angel had to kill him? This kid was the offspring of 2 vampires, who knows what he was capable of? Instead of considering all the angles, he just went off on the worst possible case scenario and went to Holtz of all people. The whole thing was stupid. If he felt so isolated from Fred and Gunn, he should have gotten in touch with Cordelia, his friend for years and who is directly linked to the PTB. Hell, he should have told Angel directly, and they could have come up with a game plan to protect Connor until they sorted it all out. Basically, what Wesley did instead was the stupidest, most horrible thing. He showed a lack of trust and faith in his friends that resulted in an innocent baby being tortured and raised in a hell dimension.
 
DeepBlueJoy
DeepBlueJoy
I agree. It was idiotic. It was actually out of character, but fear makes people do idiotic things. Forgive yes, trust again, probably not. And forgive would take a long time. Attempted murder also unforgiveable, IMO.
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
Cordelia wasn't directly linked to the PTB. They didn't talk to her, she didn't have a spirit guide, etc. It wasn't like Buffy & her prophetic dreams with people communicating ("counting down to 730" "from beneath you it devours") & vision quests.

Fool for Buffy

I'm just being a big nerd again
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
2,358
Age
20
Sineya
Yes, I absolutely would forgive him. His motivations, though foolish, were admirable. He acted out of love, and I don’t think Angel can blame Wesley when he was only a small part of losing Connor. I think if Angel never forgave him, he’d be going against his entire purpose and understanding of being a hero.
 
K
katmobile
Wes should have talked to people but then Angel didn't listen to people during the previous season. Angel also ought to have told people Connor was starting to smell like food he bears so responsibility for what happened he doesn't accept.

thrasherpix

Scooby
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
3,653
Age
38
If it had been me I THINK I'd have foregone killing him. But I probably wouldn't have visited him in the hospital as he was recovering.


That said, there are caveats. For one, I don't get the "my child" thing that so many do. A great many men will not support a child not theirs biologically (or do so only grudgingly) and this isn't (always) a case of being a deadbeat dad for in some cases a man was involved but, despite years of bonding, coldly abandoned a child upon learning that he was not the biological father. (Many women also cannot find satisfaction in adoption, and I've heard too many personal accounts of women who horribly abused the children they did adopt, possibly because such women were taking out the fact they could not bear children upon the innocent now helpless in their cruel power.) I do not know if this is a cultural thing (where many men and women consider their fertility an important part of their self-worth) or if this is neurological (as many male animals in the wild seem very willing to kill offspring of a different father, though sometimes it seems they're willing to kill their own offspring as well to get the female back in heat so human biases could be messing up observation of the animal kingdom--it would not be the first time.)

I'm not like that and I love the children I help to raise as my own, and do not understand the sanctity of one's own child (which means I'm not viewing the incident as Angel would). This could be part of having been raised in an extended family in which I had to adopt street families and the like to survive as I got older that trained my brain (creating neural pathways most lack) which makes this possible for me (and unable to see why most people are the way they are toward children not theirs), and/or it may be a certain level of detachment (some would say dissociation) I developed in childhood as a survival trait which contributes to this. It should also be noted that I never gave birth (and considered the rare episodes when I wanted to get pregnant a form of temporary insanity that I resisted), and perhaps if I had then the experience (and all the hormones affecting my brain--but do men, let alone vampires, have similar hormones affecting their brain?) would've changed me.

Another factor is that I don't believe in a just cosmos and that might affect me as well. While Angel has a similar existentialist view of the cosmos, he does believe in Hell that he's going to for his actions, so he's a hell--no pun intended--a lot closer to believing in a just cosmos that punishes than I am. And believing in that causes people to adopt those values as their own. (As a horrid example, people who try suicide can be treated horribly in hospitals because the medical staff can become outraged that someone would try to sin so bad, and therefore in their religious self-righteousness act with spite rather than compassion, presumably because they think that's what Jesus or whatever god they follow would do.)


But as it is, if I'd been in Angel's place as I am now then I'd have considered the entire incident tragic. I'd avoid Wes for awhile but my head would forgive him that would eventually reach my gut and I'd redirect my anger at other targets.
 
Last edited:

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,541
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
I think intent matters when considering outcome (I don't think it is MORE important that outcome though) and I understood Wesley's intent was noble and he was giving up something of himself in doing so.
But he went about things the wrong way, even if the prophecy were true (and prophecies are by no means a guarantee) he acted in an overly secretive manner and consulted no-one in regards to something that would affect Angel (and mostly only Angel) profoundly.

So I like to think I would forgive him, eventually.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,337
Location
Germany
I think intent matters when considering outcome (I don't think it is MORE important that outcome though) and I understood Wesley's intent was noble and he was giving up something of himself in doing so.
But he went about things the wrong way, even if the prophecy were true (and prophecies are by no means a guarantee) he acted in an overly secretive manner and consulted no-one in regards to something that would affect Angel (and mostly only Angel) profoundly.

So I like to think I would forgive him, eventually.
Depends on if he only had one intent. The problem from the start was that Wesley acted all watcher. He thought he was the only one who could be rational in that scenario. That in itself was one reason for his downfall. He didn't confide in anyone because he figured they would all make stupid emotional choices instead of logical ones. Like all watchers, Wesley thought he was better than others. Last I checked, pride comes before the fall. That in turn made him blind because he was too sure of himself.

It also showed that he apparently doesn't know Angel, at all. Angel had demonstrated with Buffy that he is willing to give up the person he loves most if said person would be better off without him. And Wesley freaking knows this. In fact, that's exactly what Angel does at the end of AtS S4.
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Depends on if he only had one intent. The problem from the start was that Wesley acted all watcher. He thought he was the only one who could be rational in that scenario. That in itself was one reason for his downfall. He didn't confide in anyone because he figured they would all make stupid emotional choices instead of logical ones. Like all watchers, Wesley thought he was better than others. Last I checked, pride comes before the fall. That in turn made him blind because he was too sure of himself.
I really agree with this. This is also a major problem with Giles.
It also showed that he apparently doesn't know Angel, at all. Angel had demonstrated with Buffy that he is willing to give up the person he loves most if said person would be better off without him. And Wesley freaking knows this. In fact, that's exactly what Angel does at the end of S4.
Not here, though. It is really hammered in that Angel is in a fragile emotional state, and even though Angel was often the voice of reason on BtVS, that is not always true on AtS. Angel's patience with Connor in S4 is saintly, but I don't think he was ready to give up his child and only source of happiness in S3.

Wesley should have gone to Fred and possibly Cordelia.
 
NeonSlayer
NeonSlayer
Except the Cordy of AtS s3 was an Angel cheerleader, loyal first & foremost to him.

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,541
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Depends on if he only had one intent.
To protect Connor from danger and to protect Angel from himself. Possibly to protect everyone from Angelus.
Do you he had other, less noble intentions? Genuine interest here.

To be clear I think that Wesley went about things all wrong, even if his intentions were mostly honest.

It also showed that he apparently doesn't know Angel, at all. Angel had demonstrated with Buffy that he is willing to give up the person he loves most if said person would be better off without him.
Eh, Wesley was never up on the whole Bangel romance aspect- or at least the intensity of it, so I don't think he really understood what Angel gave up in Sunnydale.

Plus the Connor situation is very different; at the end of the day Angel knows that Buffy can lead her own life- hell, he wants that- and protect herself but Connor cannot do either. Connor is a helpless child dependent on Angel and people have been trying to kill him since even before his birth.
With both Holtz and W&H out there do you think Angel would've agreed for anybody to take Connor for a long time without him knowing exactly where his son was?
I really doubt it; in many ways Connor meant more to Angel than Buffy did.
 

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
1,599
Location
Australia
I would have forgiven Wes only if he admitted fault, apologised and acknowledged the consequences of his actions - none of which he does in the series - and only after a significant amount of time.

Wesley acted out of pure hubris. As @RomanticSoul pointed out he allowed his pride to get in the way. He believed that only he knew the solution, that only he could handle the situation. He underestimated Holtz and conferred with him behind Angel's back. He displayed a complete lack of trust in Angel and Angel's love for Connor by not realising that Angel would have done everything in his power to protect his son, including from himself. He showed a lack of respect for his colleagues by excluding them and not confiding in them. And then, in the aftermath of it all, he refuses to admit fault and spewed crap like "I had my throat slit and all my friends abandoned me", conveniently leaving out his own wrongdoings. He also never apologises to Angel or, more egregiously, Connor, nor does he ever acknowledge how his actions affected Connor's life.

I think that Angel was an incredibly big person in forgiving Wes, as it's directly Wesley's fault that Connor was kidnapped. I probably would have held the grudge far longer than Angel did.
 
GraceK
GraceK
Omg YES
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
40
Age
28
I would have forgiven Wes only if he admitted fault, apologised and acknowledged the consequences of his actions - none of which he does in the series - and only after a significant amount of time.
Wesley is made dumb by his injuries and has to suffer verbal abuse and a murder attempt by his friends. Before he recovers, Team Angel has already made the decision to ostracise him and never forgive him. Wesley saves Angel from the ocean, seemingly without any ulterior motives.

When a confrontation eventually comes, Wesley feels the time for him to apologise has passed. Angel&Friends have exacted their revenge on him and he has paid the price for his mistake.
 
ChaseRules
ChaseRules
Wesley had a ulterior motive . It was to prove he was better then Angel other friends

RachM

I'm busy. I'm brooding.
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Messages
1,599
Location
Australia
Wesley is made dumb by his injuries and has to suffer verbal abuse and a murder attempt by his friends. Before he recovers, Team Angel has already made the decision to ostracise him and never forgive him. Wesley saves Angel from the ocean, seemingly without any ulterior motives.

When a confrontation eventually comes, Wesley feels the time for him to apologise has passed. Angel&Friends have exacted their revenge on him and he has paid the price for his mistake.
What revenge? If you're talking about Angel trying to kill him, first of all, it's kind of warranted, secondly it wasn't so much "revenge" as it was a father mindless with grief over losing his son, going after the person responsible.

And even if Wes thought the "time for him to apologise had passed" that doesn't mean it had. In fact, I would say that there was never a time when Wes couldn't or shouldn't have apologised and, as we saw in Angel's "fantasy" in Soulless, one of the things he desired was an apology from Wes.

Kidnapping Angel's kid, directly leading him to be taken by Angel's enemy? I don't think Wes could apologise enough. It's to Angel's credit that he forgives Wes at all.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,541
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
For all the love I have for Wesley as a character I definitely think he could've done more to apologize, but his wounded pride got in the way I think; he felt wronged after the events of 'Forgiving' and that stopped him apologizing, and then the Apocalypse splits everyone's focus and Wesley- to his credit- holds the team together in Angel's absence.
I think its clear that- when he remembers in S5 'Origin'- that Wesley does feel deep regret for what he did to Angel and Connor.
 

GraceK

Grr Arrg
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
1,278
Age
34
For all the love I have for Wesley as a character I definitely think he could've done more to apologize, but his wounded pride got in the way I think; he felt wronged after the events of 'Forgiving' and that stopped him apologizing, and then the Apocalypse splits everyone's focus and Wesley- to his credit- holds the team together in Angel's absence.
I think its clear that- when he remembers in S5 'Origin'- that Wesley does feel deep regret for what he did to Angel and Connor.
I agree that he definitely felt regret. I also don’t think people remember, or give him credit for, that Wesley was the first one in the Fang gang in Power Play to remind people that even if Angel did turn evil, he was still their friend and they had to help him. At that point evidence pointed to Angel having a hand in Fred’s death, and STILL, Wesley wasn’t going to give up on him.
 
I think a lot of that had to do with his own feelings of remorse and regret for the Connor situation.
 

RomanticSoul

Frell Me
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,337
Location
Germany
Not here, though. It is really hammered in that Angel is in a fragile emotional state, and even though Angel was often the voice of reason on BtVS, that is not always true on AtS. Angel's patience with Connor in S4 is saintly, but I don't think he was ready to give up his child and only source of happiness in S3.
Wasn't Angel's blood spiked during that time which made him fragile and weird to begin with? If Wesley knows Angel as well as he and others think he does, he might have caught on to that and approached Angel when he was free and of sound mind.

Do you he had other, less noble intentions? Genuine interest here.
The one I mentioned. It's not just about saving Connor. If that was his only intention he would never have gone to Holtz no matter the circumstances unless he planned to do everything in his power to kill Holtz to protect Connor. Wesley, in true watcher fashion, wanted to prove to himself and others what he was made of.

Eh, Wesley was never up on the whole Bangel romance aspect- or at least the intensity of it, so I don't think he really understood what Angel gave up in Sunnydale.

Plus the Connor situation is very different; at the end of the day Angel knows that Buffy can lead her own life- hell, he wants that- and protect herself but Connor cannot do either. Connor is a helpless child dependent on Angel and people have been trying to kill him since even before his birth.
With both Holtz and W&H out there do you think Angel would've agreed for anybody to take Connor for a long time without him knowing exactly where his son was?
I really doubt it; in many ways Connor meant more to Angel than Buffy did.
Buffy quit the Watcher's Council when they refused to help Angel. Angel risked his life to save Buffy. While that doesn't indicate feelings he knows how long Angel was in Buffy's life. He also knows the depth of Angel's feelings because back in 'Eternity' he himself mentioned that Angel lost his soul with Buffy because of the feelings he had for her.

And there are plenty ways to protect Connor, taking him away from Angel and W&H temporarily. Plenty super powered people in the world for whom Holtz wouldn't be a problem either. And again, in the end that's what Angel chose for his son, a life without Angel in it. It's similar to Buffy S3 where it took all Season for Angel to come to the conclusion. Letting go is hard but if he knew his child would be well I don't see why Angel wouldn't agree to part from his son.

And even if Wes thought the "time for him to apologise had passed" that doesn't mean it had. In fact, I would say that there was never a time when Wes couldn't or shouldn't have apologised and, as we saw in Angel's "fantasy" in Soulless, one of the things he desired was an apology from Wes.
It's not in most watchers to be humble, sadly. Angel knows he can't make up for the lives he took but that's no reason not to show regret and if you think the other person needs it, apologize. Not so you can feel better about yourself but because the person you have wronged needs it.

Kidnapping Angel's kid, directly leading him to be taken by Angel's enemy? I don't think Wes could apologise enough. It's to Angel's credit that he forgives Wes at all.
And more importantly screwing Connor up for life which literally resulted in Connor's death. The only reason why Connor is still alive is thanks to them living in a supernatural world. If they lived in the real world the only way to stop Connor would be to kill him or institutionalize him possibly for the rest of his life or jail. It's bad enough that he did this to Angel (make him lose his child) but IMO what he did to Connor via his actions was even worse.
 

brinkster130

Riley's BFF
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
6,247
Location
Los Angeles
Sineya
Nope. If Wes could have apologized and acknowledged his mistakes, I might be able to live without hating him, but forgive...lol not a chance.

Wes not only took any chance at fatherhood away from Angel, but he basically ruined Connors childhood/life too. His good intentions don't begin to make up for all the damage he caused because he was unable to trust or have faith in his team/friends.
 

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
Joined
Sep 7, 2017
Messages
1,515
Age
33
Location
Québec, Canada
Sineya
I never thought Angel was trying to kill him. I just assumed if he wanted Wes dead, then Wes would be dead.
Well he tried to kill him once at the hospital on the day Connor went to the demon dimension. That was the moment I was referring to.
 

Spanky

Scooby
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
23,912
Black Thorn
Well he tried to kill him once at the hospital on the day Connor went to the demon dimension. That was the moment I was referring to.
I knew the moment you were talking about, I just never saw it as him trying to actually kill him.
 
Top Bottom