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Would you have forgiven Wesley?

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
I knew the moment you were talking about, I just never saw it as him trying to actually kill him.
I really think he did because like a lot of people on this post, it would be very likely that you would want Wes dead after he stole your baby. It's also not very OCC for him to do that.
 

Spanky

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Black Thorn
I really think he did because like a lot of people on this post, it would be very likely that you would want Wes dead after he stole your baby. It's also not very OCC for him to do that.
I just figured why dick around and just snap his neck if he really wanted him dead. I mean, he's a vampire after all, would have been very easy to kill him. Just seemed like he was angry and taking out the anger versus wanting to actually kill him.
 

MarieVampSlayer

Bloody hell, Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers..
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Sineya
I just figured why dick around and just snap his neck if he really wanted him dead. I mean, he's a vampire after all, would have been very easy to kill him. Just seemed like he was angry and taking out the anger versus wanting to actually kill him.
It's true but I guess you don't kill the traitors quick...you make it last ;)
 

EarthLogic

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I really think he did because like a lot of people on this post, it would be very likely that you would want Wes dead after he stole your baby. It's also not very OCC for him to do that.
I just figured why dick around and just snap his neck if he really wanted him dead. I mean, he's a vampire after all, would have been very easy to kill him. Just seemed like he was angry and taking out the anger versus wanting to actually kill him.
I think it's somewhere in between. He did try to kill him, but it was in a moment of blinding rage because of the grief he was feeling, not because he actually wanted him dead and out of this world for good. As Mr. Pole has said, it would be very easy for Angel to kill Wesley and he could very well have continued trying to kill him if he truly wanted him dead. But I'm sure if he'd succeeded in the hospital he would have regretted it deeply once the anger had passed. I suppose it's kind of similar to Buffy and Faith in 'Graduation Day': Buffy doesn't actually want Faith dead but is angered enough by what she's done to Angel that she resolves to kill her anyway (and also because she needs the cure).
 
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MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
You told it so much better then me!

Antho

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The problem I have with Wesley’s actions is more with the way he acted than the reasons. I understand his reasons, he has good reasons in my opinions. But come on, no talking to his friends, talking to Holtz, stole Connor and hit Lorne by the way..... not the solution. And what was Wesley’s plan ? Just run the city. He should knows that as soon as Angel realise his child was gone he would pursuit him. And honestly, maybe I’m naive but I believe that Angel loved Connor so much and is quite smart to stay away from Connor if he knew he is a potential danger for him. What Wesley did proved that he had no confidence in his friends
 

Mrs Gordo

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I think there are some things for which apologizing seems empty or hollow. I think his pride did get in the way though. But he did his best to earn Angel’s trust and by s5 they seem to be on much better terms.

Would I have forgiven him? Probably not. Would Angel? Yes (with time and distance of course to reflect). Angel is a man who believes in redemption above all else. Even when the wrongful acts are committed against him. Remember when Faith tried to kill him (twice) and then he became one of her most loyal supporters? Remember when Darla raped him and tried to drive him mad and then he still offered to die for her? So I’m not surprised Angel comes to forgive Wes.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Ah, that's true. I guess throwing her through the glass doors was his way of saying we're even.
Well this is tricky. Because the human ensouled Darla date raped him (he was having sexy dreams but she was literally there having sex with him was my understanding) but he never retaliated against her. He tried to help her. Now that she was human and had a soul he thought she was redeemable. And to be fair she seemed to feel the weight of her soul eventually.

But the setting her on fire and the throwing her across the glass door was because she was a demon again. She was back to being the demon who he had been in a 150 year kinky ass relationship with (“your hurting me I like it”) and as @thetopher said was probably there to kill him and steal the ring for some nefarious plan. He forgave Darla with a soul but I don’t think he could ever forgive her demon for damning him and for being a part of all of the destruction he caused in over a century (until she comes back with his child.. but she is infected with the kids’ soul so #itscomplicated.)
 
MarieVampSlayer
MarieVampSlayer
Haha so complicated!
thetopher
thetopher
#wackycouple

Ethan Reigns

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Sineya
I don't believe Wesley ever thought he was doing something wrong even though he got played, so he would never admit to being wrong. He could never repair the damage he did to Connor or to Angel who were both deprived of family. Wesley would never think he did anything wrong, he would just believe circumstances made everything turn out wrong. You really can't forgive someone who believes he was doing something right because Wesley would never apologise for what he had done.

I am not much of a believer in redemption arcs because redemption never rights the wrongs that were done any more than Faith's quest for redemption could bring back Professor Worth. The karmic consequences to doing bad things and good things are separate - they don't just cancel each other on some celestial balance sheet.
 

Steven123

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Am I Angel in this scenario? I can understand that Angel was unable to forgive him, because Connor had made him happy for only the second time in his long (un)life, and he was still grieving Darla's sacrifice.

However, as a neutral observer, I have no problem forgiving Wesley. Intentions should matter more than outcomes, because the control we possess on the world is limited. Everybody believed the prophecy foretelling Buffy's death and it did come true, so I think Wesley had reason to act as he did. Angel is a vampire with man-eating instincts, so it is not inconceivable that something could cause him to hurt Connor.
Hmm. I agree with your first part. When Darla was telling Angel that the baby was the only good thing they had done, you could see the hurt in Angel when he knew what Darla had to do in order for the baby to be born/survive, and despite most of their relationship being based on hurting others, they still spent a good few hundred years together, and when she was human, he desperately wanted to help her, and was just as hurt when he couldn't.

As for the intentions.., I think that your intentions should be (in some what) based on what the outcome could be. The best of intentions as show lead to the worst outcomes, because they weren't thought through, and more often than not can be spur of the moment decisions.
 

crazysoulless

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Angel was unbeknowestly drinking Connor's blood, human blood (at least as much so as Buffy's since Slayers are human/demon) and he threatened to murder him. Angel got mad Connor was crying, the Fang Gang reminded him Connor was a baby, and he said, "If he doesn't stop cying he won't be a baby for much longer." In BtVS s2, Angel was able to drink human blood (stolen donations) until Buffy caught him in The Dark Age without it making him want to attack humans (though Angel proved he still found it enticing). But drinking from Buffy left him with a craving that hadn't lessened months later. We don't know the effects of Connor's blood.

Wesley's actions weren't that bad. It was the consequences of his actions. Xander didn't tell Buffy that Willow was restoring Angel's soul in the hopes she'd kill him first and it led to Buffy being forced to trap Angel in a Hell dimension for 100 years. He never pays or apologizes or sees what he did as harmful. In fact, Xander blames Buffy & Angel. Even 5 years later he just says "that was different" when confronted with it.

Angel smothering Wesley reminds me of Graduation Day. Mayor Wilkins felt grief for his psuedo daughter Faith so he went over to where Buffy (neck injury, loss of blood) lay in the hospital bed and tries to suffocate her. Angel felt grief for his son Connor so went over to where Wesley (neck injury, loss of blood) lay in the hospital bed and tries to suffocate him.

Wesley was trying to save Connor and make sure Angel doesn't have to carry the weight of having killed his own child. Compare that to Giles ready to kill Dawn as a preventative measure to save the world and trying to downplay Buffy's connection to her, saying "She's not your sister."
 
GreyWalker1958
GreyWalker1958
Between Wes being played by Sahjahn's manipulations, and Xander believing one of Anya's victims about a future that never was causing him to leave her at the alter, spring 2002 was not a good time to be either man

thrasherpix

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I really don't see how Becoming would've ended differently had Xander told the truth about what Willow said and was doing. If anything, Buffy might've blamed herself harder because she didn't go in for the kill (and thinking of it in real life terms rather than as the viewer of a show, it could've gotten Buffy killed and the entire world damned, even if Willow's spell worked).

Maybe if Xander brought the tranquilizer gun to dart Angel while he was distracted (I'm not sure if Buffy would okay that plan or not) and gave Willow her chance then sure, but I doubt such a plan occurred to anyone, or would've for awhile.
 
GreyWalker1958
GreyWalker1958
And ruin his delusional hopes of getting a chance with Buffy?? Xander wanted Angel dead otherwise Oz would
probably be the only trusting one to get the tranquilizer gun
K
katmobile
It might have made Buffy aware of more options and it wasn't Xander's decision to make nor did he make it impartially.

crazysoulless

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I really don't see how Becoming would've ended differently had Xander told the truth about what Willow said and was doing. If anything, Buffy might've blamed herself harder because she didn't go in for the kill (and thinking of it in real life terms rather than as the viewer of a show, it could've gotten Buffy killed and the entire world damned, even if Willow's spell worked).

Maybe if Xander brought the tranquilizer gun to dart Angel while he was distracted (I'm not sure if Buffy would okay that plan or not) and gave Willow her chance then sure, but I doubt such a plan occurred to anyone, or would've for awhile.
Buffy went in thinking it didn't matter if Angelus started the ritual because the way to end it was by killing him with the magic sword and she was already going to do that. If she knew that in a couple of minutes he would have his soul back, that'd make a huge difference. She would have fought a lot harder and had a better goal. She would've focused on preventing the ritual instead of cleaning house of vampires.

Look at Willow's reaction. "I never said that." And Xander looking guilty for one second before dismissing it (same in Phases when his lie from The Pack was revealed). It's like if in Selfless Dawn, with her unrequited crush on Xander, knew there was a way to turn Anya human again but didn't say anything even though she knew Buffy was on the way to kill murderous Anya. And then Anya dies and Dawn gets annoyed Xander is so broken up about it.
 
T
thrasherpix
I didn't say Xander wasn't in the wrong, just that I don't see it as having made a difference, and on that we'll just have to disagree.

Steven123

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Buffy went in thinking it didn't matter if Angelus started the ritual because the way to end it was by killing him with the magic sword and she was already going to do that. If she knew that in a couple of minutes he would have his soul back, that'd make a huge difference. She would have fought a lot harder and had a better goal. She would've focused on preventing the ritual instead of cleaning house of vampires.

Look at Willow's reaction. "I never said that." And Xander looking guilty for one second before dismissing it (same in Phases when his lie from The Pack was revealed). It's like if in Selfless Dawn, with her unrequited crush on Xander, knew there was a way to turn Anya human again but didn't say anything even though she knew Buffy was on the way to kill murderous Anya. And then Anya dies and Dawn gets annoyed Xander is so broken up about it.

I agree that it would have made a difference as well. Even if it didn't make any actual physical difference to the situation, imagine being Buffy/Willow and Buffy thinking that's what Willow said for all those years, to then find out it was a lie, that a lone makes a difference in that aspect.

But in terms of a physical difference, I would say it would have. She would have fought FOR him, and not AGAINST him, obviously there may have been time to stop the ritual all together, stall him, anything, considering Willow restored his soul a good few minutes before the portal started to open, so there was a few minutes in between where she could have stopped or stalled the ritual from being complete.
 

ChaseRules

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I don't believe Wesley ever thought he was doing something wrong even though he got played, so he would never admit to being wrong. He could never repair the damage he did to Connor or to Angel who were both deprived of family. Wesley would never think he did anything wrong, he would just believe circumstances made everything turn out wrong. You really can't forgive someone who believes he was doing something right because Wesley would never apologies for what he had done.

I am not much of a believer in redemption arcs because redemption never rights the wrongs that were done any more than Faith's quest for redemption could bring back Professor Worth. The karmic consequences to doing bad things and good things are separate - they don't just cancel each other on some celestial balance sheet.
I agree with what you said . Wesley probably thought that he made a mistake but it wasn't really his fault . What he didn't think is he showed he didn't care for anyone else feelings & ruined Conner life in the process . If I had been Angel I would have said "I forgive you . Now get out of my sight & never come back " .
 

Steven123

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I agree with what you said . Wesley probably thought that he made a mistake but it wasn't really his fault . What he didn't think is he showed he didn't care for anyone else feelings & ruined Conner life in the process . If I had been Angel I would have said "I forgive you . Now get out of my sight & never come back " .

Yeah, with Wesley not going to any of the gang etc and acting on his own belief at the time that pretty much put him in the situation that was never going to work out in any event. I think that's where the story became very different though. In any other situation or belief etc that he would of had like that, he would have told Angel or at least have told one of the gang, obviously at this point it probably would have been Fred, of what he thought was happening or would happen etc. I think Angel has as much anger for that if anything.
 
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