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Would you have forgiven Wesley?

telperion66

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An epic question for an epic storyline. Angel's response in trying to kill Wesley was both understandable yet shocking. The way in which Wesley wrestles with the decision and ultimately decides to take Connor away is beautifully illustrated in the episodes. I love Wesley, so if it were my son that had been taken, I think I would have talked it through and come to a place where we mourned together about it. However, not forgiving him opened up so many amazing doors of opportunity for the writers and was really the beginning of Wesley's descent into "dark Wes" status, who is actually my favourite character incarnation in the entire Buffy franchise overall. Every time he is on screen the show just crackles with life and intrigue. Hence my picture!!
 

Priceless

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Angel is trying to atone for the evil he did as Angelus, so he understands how important forgiveness is, and how difficult it is to give. You can't ask to be forgiven if you can't forgive others. I guess that goes for Wesley too; he should forgive his father as Angel forgave him.
 

TriBel

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I wouldn't forgave him...my son went to hell because of you aint no forgiving that
Angel is trying to atone for the evil he did as Angelus, so he understands how important forgiveness is, and how difficult it is to give. You can't ask to be forgiven if you can't forgive others. I guess that goes for Wesley too; he should forgive his father as Angel forgave him.
There's an argument to be made that Angel "forgives" his own father for "cursing him" and "sending him to hell" in A11 (? - the other one nobody likes :rolleyes: ) when he realizes that alongside the "bad" father Liam hated was a "good" father that Liam loved. I'm not sure of the extent to which Angel can "forgive and forget" until he's reconciled with this father of his prehistory. It's a paradox - he can't forgive and forget until he remembers what he's never really forgotten. :D I actually think the Angelus/Angel dichotomy is premised on this repressed history.

Does Wes take Connor to protect him from Angel or is it he acting out a repressed wish that someone had protected Wes from his own dad?

Angel "kills" Wes then takes his "wife" (Fred) as his own (again, it's a classic repressed wish) - it's all very, very Oedipal.

Dads huh? Who'd have 'em. :)
 
GreyWalker1958
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Why did Joss and Dark Horse sign off on such a piss poor comic?

Priceless

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Does Wes take Connor to protect him from Angel or is it he acting out a repressed wish that someone had protected Wes from his own dad?
There is definitely a sense of this about that arc. Wesley wanted protection as a child, and puts all those feelings onto Connor. The pretend prophecy plays right into Wesley's own fears and history. It also explains why Wesley fell for that prophecy so easily, without even talking to anyone, simply accepting that the father would hurt the child, because that's what fathers did.
 

TriBel

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There is definitely a sense of this about that arc. Wesley wanted protection as a child, and puts all those feelings onto Connor. The pretend prophecy plays right into Wesley's own fears and history. It also explains why Wesley fell for that prophecy so easily, without even talking to anyone, simply accepting that the father would hurt the child, because that's what fathers did.
TBH, I came to the conclusion when I was writing the above that most (all?) of the prophecies in Angel are self-fulfilling.
 

GreyWalker1958

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The man believe he was doing right to avoid a altered prophecy that in truth didn't have anything to Angel; altered because a aincient demon was too much a wuss to accept his prophecized fate as intended. Only too tlate to learn he not only accidentally screwed over the undead man he trusted but ruined a innocent baby's life by giving him over to a Vampire Hunter who wanted what Angelus (and Darla) robbed him of. He proved he was still the same Wesley Wyndham-Price who tried to take Faith in just as Angel was trying to get through to her the first time around the 3 years before

No, I couldn't nor shouldn't forgive him. Hell, had he stuck around in Sunnydale to pull the same shit when Dawn was in Glory's sights, we know a certain blonde would have him share the same concrete frying pan as Joel Grey's character did.
 

Ethan Reigns

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There is no point trying to forgive someone who doesn't think he was doing anything wrong.

The one thing Wesley never considered was that Connor was the child of two vampires and no one ever knew what the characteristics of that being would be. If he turned out to be a monster, Angel may have had to terminate Connor and may have been the only one who could do it. Wesley reminds me of Rene Descartes' quote:

"Nothing in the world is more fairly distributed than common sense; no one believes he needs more of it than he already has."
 

ChaseRules

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Agreed . Wesley should at the very least let someone know what was going down since that was the right thing to do but he didn't which
showed that he was in it for himself.
 

GreyWalker1958

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Agreed . Wesley should at the very least let someone know what was going down since that was the right thing to do but he didn't which
showed that he was in it for himself.
Just when tried to place Faith under arrest via the Counsil
 

white avenger

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Would I forgive Wesley if he allowed my miracle child to fall into the hands of my worst enemy? Gee, that's a tough one. What to do, what to do? A fast death would be too merciful, and a slow, lingering death would most likely wind up being very messy, and there would always be the chance, no matter how slim, that Wes might be rescued before I was through with him. Aw, shucks, let's just go ahead and get it over with. Disemboweling isn't an instant death, but if it's properly done, the victim can last for as much as an hour, and there's almost no chance for recovery, even if the cavalry arrives within moments. Add lighter fluid and a spark to the process...

Of course, it has to be remembered that, what Wes had done to Angel, making a decision that affected someone else's life or welfare without either giving them input or warning, Angel had done to others several times throughout the history of the two shows, and would continue to do right up to the final Season. with regrettable results on more than one occasion. So, we have here a perfect example of both righteous rage at an act of betrayal by a trusted friend, and the perfect example of a vampire who never hesitates to dish it out, but can't take it when the situation is reversed.
 

Athene

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I don’t think I could. It would be the thought of a close friend making such a huge decision on my behalf by himself that would be hard to get over. If he could take my child from me and convince himself it’s right then there’s no limits to what he can convince himself is right. That’s a huge problem with Wes for me he can be very self righteous and he has no problem acting on those tendencies. I probably wouldn’t kill him though, just forgiveness wouldn’t be on the table.
 

spikenbuffy

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A little Off Topic, I know but I have to say this about Wesley, I was kind of mesmerized that Wesley is first to suggest in Power Play to try to put Angel in right path even if he thinks that Angel is responsible of Fred's death, it seems that Wesley can be quite forgiving. IMO if Angel would have played a part willfully in the murder of a friend or the love of my life, I don't think I could act like Wesley in Power Play.
 

katmobile

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What revenge? If you're talking about Angel trying to kill him, first of all, it's kind of warranted, secondly it wasn't so much "revenge" as it was a father mindless with grief over losing his son, going after the person responsible.

And even if Wes thought the "time for him to apologise had passed" that doesn't mean it had. In fact, I would say that there was never a time when Wes couldn't or shouldn't have apologised and, as we saw in Angel's "fantasy" in Soulless, one of the things he desired was an apology from Wes.

Kidnapping Angel's kid, directly leading him to be taken by Angel's enemy? I don't think Wes could apologise enough. It's to Angel's credit that he forgives Wes at all.
No murder or assault is never warranted not unless it's the only one way to get someone to leave you or someone you care about alone. It is very understandable in this case and it is very excusable - but it is neither reasonable or warranted. Angel is as prone to his anger and need to take out his grief on someone as anyone else. He's human but that means he's not perfect.
Wes made a dreadful mistake but he was trying to do the right thing, and don't forget Angel was behaving strangely because of the blood lust but he paid with being ostracized after almost paying with his life. The person I most hate is Justine but Wes did get his own back on her ironically in the service of saving Angel which he still did and clearly didn't do it to be forgiven.
 
GreyWalker1958
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I hate her and Sahjahn's bitch ass

white avenger

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It is very understandable in this case and it is very excusable - but it is neither reasonable or warranted.
And I'm sure that, eventually, Angel came to the same conclusion. At that moment, however, I'm also pretty sure that "reasonable" was just about as far from Angel as New York is to San Francisco. As I said above, Connor was literally Angel's miracle child, and that miracle had been taken from him, as far as he knew at the time, forever. That would understandably tend to make him more than a little bit agitated, plus, he was almost certainly still under the effects of the human blood that he had been unknowingly drinking.
 

ChaseRules

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No murder or assault is never warranted not unless it's the only one way to get someone to leave you or someone you care about alone. It is very understandable in this case and it is very excusable - but it is neither reasonable or warranted. Angel is as prone to his anger and need to take out his grief on someone as anyone else. He's human but that means he's not perfect.
Wes made a dreadful mistake but he was trying to do the right thing, and don't forget Angel was behaving strangely because of the blood lust but he paid with being ostracized after almost paying with his life. The person I most hate is Justine but Wes did get his own back on her ironically in the service of saving Angel which he still did and clearly didn't do it to be forgiven.
Myself I think Wes saved Angel so he could be forgiven . Wes would never say that but I believe that was one of the if not the main reason Wes
did that myself.
 

Puppet

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I haven't forgiven Wesley for threatening to fire Charles in "That Old Gang of Mine", when he really had no right to do so.
I mean, fair on you, if you don't want to forgive him, that's fine. But, no right? Really? He's the literal boss and Gunn went behind his back, hiding important information that eventually resulted in being attacked and endangered at the club. Also, this is all happening after the betrayal from Angel the previous season, so the fact that trust doesn't come easy for any of them anymore, doesn't really surprise me. He for sure had every right to say what he did, whether you agree with him or not.
 

katmobile

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Ok so I am always on the fence with this one.

On one side I understand Wesley's action in kidnapping Connor because he was really trying to save him.

On the other side, his actions really destroyed Angel and Connor's relationship.

What do you guys think? Would you forgive Wesley or try to kill him like Angel?

Let's discuss!
I honestly don't know although as a neutral observer I feel for Wes. If I had like Angel it would have taken some time.
 
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