• Thank you for visiting Buffy-Boards. You obviously have exceptional taste. We just want you to know that:
    1. You really should register so you can chat with us!
    2. Twelve thousand people can't be wrong.
    3. Buffy-Boards loves you.
    4. See 1 through 3.
    Come on, register already!

You were my sire, man! (Spike & Angel)

Taake

Talk Darcy to me
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
15,253
Age
33
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
You were my sire, man! You were my... Yoda! - Spike

So, clearly, at the introduction of Spike there was a plan or intention that Angel was his sire.
Why do you think they changed this? Was it because it didn't seem in tune with Angelus' character to have sired Spike? Was it to create a stronger bond between him and Drusilla? Or to create a consistent Spike-and-women character trait (under the control of his mother - Drusilla - Buffy)?

Was this change good or bad?
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Spike says, "You were my sire, you were my Yoda." It could be that Spike considers Angel to be his father and his teacher. Most people refer to the people that raised them as their parents. We learn in Destiny that Angelus trained Spike. Their relationship has a twisted and Freudian father/son dynamic.

They probably changed it - or re-contextualised it - to explain the dynamic between Spike and Dru. They likely did this early, because Spike is not present in the Becoming flashbacks.

Btw, if Angel was Spike's literal sire/father, it would be odd for him to also call him his Yoda. "You are my father and my teacher." Isn't that a little redundant?
 

Grace

Destructo-Girl
Joined
Mar 23, 2017
Messages
1,787
Black Thorn
This is so juvenile, but whenever this subject comes up, it always makes me think about the author's note on this story.

PLEASE NOTE: This is what we used to call an "ASS" canon fic -- ANGEL SIRED SPIKE! Pisshaw on that Dru nonsense.
 
Taake
Taake
Haha, ASS

Taake

Talk Darcy to me
Staff member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
15,253
Age
33
Location
Stockholm, Swe
Black Thorn
Btw, if Angel was Spike's literal sire/father, it would be odd for him to also call him his Yoda. "You are my father and my teacher." Isn't that a little redundant?
Not really, I mean Lawson could say "you are my father" to Angel, but he certainly wouldn't say "you were my teacher". Being a father, or rather a sire, doesn't really mean you have to teach your spawn who to be a bad little demon ;)
 
W

WillowFromBuffy

Guest
Not really, I mean Lawson could say "you are my father" to Angel, but he certainly wouldn't say "you were my teacher". Being a father, or rather a sire, doesn't really mean you have to teach your spawn who to be a bad little demon ;)
But would he say, you were my father but not my Yoda or would he say, you were an absentee father :p Maybe he didn't watch Star Wars :eek:
 
Taake
Taake
Maybe Connor and he should be in Group therapy?

Spanky

Zexy Mercenary
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
19,347
Black Thorn
Why do you think they changed this?
I think because originally both Spike and Angel were to die so it really didn't matter. When Spike became a recurring character I think they tweaked his backstory to allow it more room to breathe without it having to be tied to Angel. I'm sure the Spike and Angel similarities were a happy accident. Both men made monsters by women and a woman redeems both monsters and turns them into men again.

Don't even get me started on the Spike and Yoda line and why that's so problematic.
 

Slayerofslayers

We're going to destroy the world. Want to come?
Joined
Oct 10, 2016
Messages
353
Age
26
Location
Southern California
I think part of the reason it was changed was to show why Drusilla was so important to Spike. He saw her siring of him as rescuing him from his life of being looked down on and longing for a romantic connection with another. The episode in which it is showed is called "Fool for Love" which fits with this theme. Spike has always been consumed by his main priority: his desire to love and be loved. We see this with his love for his mother and with Dru and eventually Buffy. So I think the writers thought it would be more fitting to have Spike be sired by someone he saw as having a potential romantic connection with that ended up being the longest and one of the most important relationships he had. He spent 100 plus years with Dru and in contrast only spent a couple of decades with Angel. However, Angel is still important in Spike's life as a soulless vampire as Angel taught him a lot about being a vampire and being evil. As we saw as well, him and Angel didn't get along much as they had different ideas on how they should behave as vampires and Spike hated that Angel would take Dru away from him from time to time. So I think it works better that Dru is his sire because while Angel and Spike could get along at times, they seemed to have more of a rivalry than a strong bond.
 

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
15,232
Age
71
Location
rome, georgia
I think that, in the context of which Spike was speaking, he was saying that Angelus was his "sire" in the respect that he was the alpha male, or patriarch, in the vampire group, thus, the sire of everyone there, with the possible exception of Darla. That would also explain the "Yoda" reference, since Yoda was supposedly the highest ranking Jedi in the Order still living. Of course, the double meaning that Yoda was also the mentor also applies.
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
876
Age
37
I doubt Spike's backstory was fully charted out in Season 2, and I agree the implication was that that Angel turned William. Having said that, I'm fine with that retcon, I think the change paid off far better than the original implication, and S5 showed Angelus as Spike's mentor, so there was a payoff, and it was likely equal or better than the original.
 

DJ Doena

Townie
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
1
Age
41
You were my sire, man! You were my... Yoda! - Spike

So, clearly, at the introduction of Spike there was a plan or intention that Angel was his sire.
1980: Obi-Wan: There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.
1997: Spike:: You were my sire, man! You were my ... Yoda!
1999: *Qui-Gonn is Obi-Wan's teacher*
2000: *Drusilla sires Spike*

Clearly, there is some symmetry there. ;)
 

AlphaFoxtrot

Scooby
Joined
Sep 11, 2017
Messages
876
Age
37
It also occurs to me, that the purpose of the line wasn't to establish the exact relationship between Angel and Spike, but rather, to foreshadow how dangerous Angelus was, that this dangerous warrior vampire looks up to him. Which could be said of a lot of early Season 2, transforming this cowardly, passive, inactive fallen angel into the Angel we all know and kind of like.
 

AshSlays

WOW, Sarcasm, that's original!
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
251
Location
The cursed area of tons of sweet tea (Arkansas)
Black Thorn
Hmm.... I'd probably go with it being either a continuity error (highly unlikely because, well, this is Buffy we're talking about here) or it being a thing of him being a teacher. Dunno, though. If any of you guys ever get the chance to interview Joss or another writer, that would be a good thing to ask them about!
1997: Spike:: You were my sire, man! You were my ... Yoda!
False, Spike was not introduced until 1998, also when this quote was said ;)
 

NileQT87

Billowy Coat, King of Pain
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
385
Age
32
Location
San Diego, CA, USA
No, School Hard aired in 1997.

September 29, 1997 to be exact.

Remember, season 1 was a mid-season replacement (premiered March 10, 1997) and would have aired in fall 1996 had it been picked up for a full season. There was even an alternate History of the Slayer promo produced for 1996 that included unaired pilot footage. Some of the first season was actually filmed in 1996. Witch was the first episode shot.
 

thetopher

Member of the Church Of Faith
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
10,008
Location
The Moot, England
Sineya
Maybe Spike was lying, or at the very least projecting on a relationship that perhaps wasn't as deep as he thought it was back in the day.

Or he was venting, this was the first time Spike had seen Angel since finding out about 'the gypsy curse/soul thing despite meeting Angelus in WW2 and not realizing anything was amiss.
So he felt duped, and nursed that grudge for a long time. His 'you think you can fool me!' is actually quite telling given the fact that Angel did in fact easily fool him. It also explains why Angel felt confident that he could do it again in 'School Hard'.
Basically Penn or Lawson actually act like Angelus made them and taught them, Spike just comes across as butt hurt because of 'shared history'.
The 'Destiny' ret-con is, imo, not very effective or believable at making a connection between the two of them pre-soul, but then again I'm not a slash fic writer *shrug*

And overall I think the change- if that's what it was- it works for the better, since its consistent with Spike character of him/woman, whether that woman is his Mum or Dru or Buffy. At least post-soul you could argue that he's trying to change the pattern by glomming onto Angel.
 

AnthonyCordova

Earth Invasion Taskforce Unlimited
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
1,880
Location
Denver, Colorado
Sineya
Maybe in a way, they (the writers of the show) wanted to emphasize later the points of conflict between Angel and Spike. One might argue that for this reason it would make things easier later if Dru had sired Spike for sexual tension and competition (which is something they eventually used when they had Dru cheat on Spike later with Angelus in a flashback). Spike afterward could be extra offended, with his sense of entitlement to extra privileges with Dru being compromised (possession of Dru because she had sired him, with the sexual implications involved in that kind of act) and there you go, extra point of conflict you can come back to and develop later.
 
Top Bottom