Question Do you think Angel or Spike would be "Champions" even without Buffy?

Well Angel wanted to play hero when he first saw Buffy and decided he wanted to help her, etc. Spike wanted to prove himself to Buffy and help her, etc. So what do you think...were they always destined inside themselves to be "Champions" or is Buffy alone the reason for thier transformations basically?

Discuss. 😎

Spike...absolutely no way. He was the ultimate Big Bad, through and through. Like Kean said in the other thread, he changed because of Buffy, the influence of the people around him. He was chipped because he was caught after going back to try to kill her one more time, so without Buffy, there would have been no reason for him to be in Sunnydale at that point. The Night of St. Vigeous, or however it's pronounce, would have went off without a hitch, because, without a Slayer to tempt him, Spike would have waited until the actual night, and that would have been that.

So, no, without Buffy, Spike would have continued the life he'd had in 'School Hard'. Maybe he would have stuck around the Hellmouth, maybe not, but there would be no way he'd be anywhere close to being a Champion.

Angel, on the other hand, is different. He was helping people before he met Buffy. Alright, it didn't go very well any of the times we saw (except when he rescued the puppy, lol) but at least that instinct was there. He has his soul, so he knew right from wrong, and he knew when he needed to help people. I doubt he would have ended up as the Angel we all know and...tolerate, for some people, lol, but he wouldn't have been evil.

I love this question! 😀 Partly because I don't even know if I have an answer, lol. Angel and Spike were both pretty pathetic before Buffy entered their lives. I think Angel could have been persuaded to become a hero even without Buffy. It wouldn't have been the same character development, but it could have happened. Whistler could have inspired him to help by showing him the despair of other people (kinda like what happened to Cordelia in 'To Shanshu in LA') or enticing him with some kind of redemption prophecy thingy.

Spike's weird though. Don't know what to think about him yet, lol. I'll get back to you. 😀

The BHD isn't one, even with Buffy... way too self-absorbed to be called a champion.

And Spike most definitely wouldn't be one either, without Buffy - while he's not as selfish as that other vampire, he would never have had any motivation to start fighting creature of the night, let alone seek to have his soul restored. In all likelihood, he'd still be Dru's badass lover and run around causing mayhem.

I think it is made clear that Powers wanted Angel to take the path of the good fight. So yes, I do think he would have taken up the mantle without Buffy's presence in his life, simply because he had a power pushing him towards it. In fairness, I don't think Buffy can be given the credit for Angel fighting on a level to be worthy of the name "Champion". I think that actually has to go to Doyle. He encouraged Angel to fight on a bigger scale and greater meaning.

With Spike, no way. If it wasn't for Buffy he wouldn't have been chipped and begun the road that led him to Africa and beyond. It hadn't occurred to him to do good work before Buffy. I don't see how it would occur to him without her being in his life.

With Spike, I think the answer is easy. Hell no. Buffy was the reason he wanted to change, wanted to be good, and wanted to get his soul. And in the end, it all led to him becoming a champion because she believed in him (and loved him I might add, lol)!

With Angel, I think it's a little more tricky. Once he got his soul, he certainty wasn't going anywhere. He was wasting away in the streets on NYC. Yet, once he saw and fell in love with Buffy, he was inspired to change his behavior, change his attitude, and change his outlook on things. But, I don't think it really was until AtS that Angel truly embarked on the path of becoming a champion. I agree with Kean that credit should be given to Doyle for that.

However, if it wasn't for his original love for Buffy, Angel would have never gotten to the point of wanting to pursue that path (or having that choice). So, while I think Angel could become a champion without Buffy being around, I don't think he would have gotten to that position if it wasn't for his love of Buffy. In that sense, I don't think Angel could have become the champion he became if it wasn't for Buffy.

I really hope I made sense in all that, lol! 🙂

Almost certainly neither man would have become a hero or champion without Buffy's inspiration. Angel didn't work for the Powers because he wanted to be any kind of hero, he did it because he fell in love with Buffy at first sight. Without her, he would still be in that alley sucking rats dry. As for Spike, by his own admission, it was his feelings for his third Slayer that gave him all of his inspiration. So it can be safely said for either man, "No Buffy, no hero."

white avenger said:

So it can be safely said for either man, "No Buffy, no hero."

Click to expand...

Lol, "No Buffy, no hero"

I'm on this bandwagon though. I think neither would've jumped to that particular path without her.

There's a small chance Angel might've in a certain sense, far from as 'grand' as his champion role became via Buff though, since we did see a certain need to help and to get close in "Are you now or have you ever been" ... if he'd have ever gotten over Judy's betrayal he might've helped out the occasional person here and there.

Honestly, no. None of them. As you said, Angel saw Buffy and wanted to change and help. And Spike, if Buffy hadn't been there to be the subject for the change, I doubt he would have become a good vampire. It started as the will to help Buffy, but it ended as him wanting to save the world, not just for Buffy.

The short answer: no. Buffy is who made Angel feel like DOING something with his life and helping instead of rotting with the rats in the sewer AKA inspired him to be a better person... and it was falling in love with Buffy that made Spike choose to be a better person time and time again... AKA she inspired him to be a better person.

I don't think either one of them would have. I also don't think it's more likely Angel would have than Spike. Spike always had a predisposition to falling in love. If he'd fallen for someone else who inspired good, he might have walked the path. Without that, it's unlikely. Angel was so broody and miserable, I doubt he'd have stopped wallowing long enough to do anything good without Buffy as inspiration. Maybe sometime in the future if another slayer had come along to inspire him. Basically, I doubt either would have amounted to much without the need to do it for a woman (typical guys, right? 😉 j/k).

I don't either of them would be champions. Buffy was the one that inspired Angel to do something with his life and if spike hadn't met buffy then he wouldn't have got chipped.

Without Buffy I think both of them would have taken a heck of a lot longer to become champions. I think she was a very motivating factor in both cases.
Now if Drusilla would have still left Spike maybe he would have. Without her he was kind of lost. Then we have to think if he came to another city with another initiative base would they capture him? If so he would have the chip so he would still be doing some good.

Angel would have never gone to sunnydale or maybe even LA for that matter. He probably would have never met Cordy or Doyle which also helped him a lot. I say he would have maybe never went to LA because his breakup with Buffy caused him to make this decision.

So I am going to say they still could have done good but they would be nowhere near as much champions as they were now. Buffy in some way inspired and brought the best out of both men.

Spike

I think it's unlikely that soulless Spike would have become a champion. The reason being is because he did make the chages for Buffy, because he thought it was what she wanted (his words not mine), so it's unlikely that he would have become a champion. Also unlike Angel he was happy with his existence before he met her so, why change?

Angel

As Kean said, Angel was at least trying to do good before meeting Buffy. Even in the first two years he was saving people from his own vampiric family. Also I think he wanted to become a better person for himself. "I want to help her, I want to become someone". IMO, him becoming a champion rests on two main things: His faith in himself and his faith in humanity. We know the reason he gave up helping people is because he thought they existed to hurt one another but when he came to Sunnydale he saw a different story. He actually didn't say it was just Buffy that was sole person who was trying to be a better person.

Just to be clear I'm not arguing moral superiority here, it's to do with circumstance as well. If Spike had been cursed and Angelus had been chipped, I'd be inclined to think there would only be one vampire with a soul fighting for good and it would be the one with the weird hair. I'm sorry I should be more specific, I meant Spike.